Caledonian Sleeper

[MrEd]

So, as of last night I've now done two journeys on the mk5s. Euston to Inverness and back.

I should declare an interest in that I have a certain sentimental attachment to the mk3s, having done so many journeys in them over the years, but here's my attempt at some objective comments, which can only cover the sleeping cars themselves, as the lounge car and seats remain out of use. And we were in a "classic" cabin without ensuite.

The overall impression I guess, is that they are OK (at least, if you're in a cabin with no major malfunctions, which I was in both directions). Reading some reviews, you might think they are an outright disaster. That would be overstating things. There are some ways in which they improve on the mk3s, but I wouldn't say they are massive step up, on the whole.

My feeling is that the design and construction quality, at a detail level, is quite poor. There are a lot of things that are just a bit flimsy, or don't seem to have been really thoroughly thought through. In this regard, compared to the mk3 sleepers, I think they compare very poorly. Even in the rickety state they were allowed to reach at the end of their lives, the design of the mk3 cabins seemed robust and carefully thought out - as if they'd gone through a good few prototypes, tested them, and then built things solidly and from scratch, to do the job intended.

The mk5s have a bit more of a feel of having being largely assembled from a collection of off-the-shelf components that aren't necessarily exactly right for the job (and which don't look like they will survive many years of heavy use). I know some of this is deliberate. The sink and tap, say, look much like a sink and tap you might find in a small hotel room rather than on a sleeper train. That's part of their thing about making it a "hotel on wheels" but it doesn't result in the kind of clever compact design that you see when something like this has been done really well.

The space to stow luggage under the bottom bunk is pretty badly designed. Fair enough - there's only so much space available, and it can only be a certain height. So we could just about manage to push two large rucksacks under there - but not without them getting all caught up on the flimsy clips that secure the bottom of the ladder. These clips look like they were bought for 19p each from Screwfix. It's not just that they are so obviously going to get damaged though, they are fixed so they kind of fold down (why?) in such a way that they tangle and jam as much as possible with anything you try and push under them.

At the end of the luggage stowage bit there's a sign telling you not to obstruct that area (I think it's the inlet/outlet for the AC), and if you look inside there are some spikes coming down from the top, which I suppose are to try and stop you ignoring the sign and pushing something in there, but they just create another invisible obstruction for things to get caught on.

A friend who used the new carriages before I did told me she thought the ladder was in the most inconvenient position possible. I think she might be right. The mk3s had a much better arrangement for the ladder, I think (will have to look at some old photos to remind myself how it worked).

Another example of a bit of bad design is the table that slides out from under the sink. When you want to put it away, you fold the end flap over, and try and push it back in, and it immediately jams against the little cover flap that conceals it when it's stowed away. So you have to stop and lift that flap up with your other hand. I don't see how this can be excused - this is just rubbish design! I bet those cantilevering tables are gong to constantly have heavy bags put on them, and get broken, by the way.

Aside from these functional things, I don't mind the aesthetic of the overall interior design too much - in terms of colours and so on, if you can ignore the slightly cheap look to everything if you examine it in detail. I wonder how long it's going to last before it looks rather tatty.

On the way back, the door to the shared toilet was jammed. You could just about shove it open and closed. Close inspection of the piston rod that attaches its midpoint to the wall showed that the fixings into the wall were pulling out and it had got bent. Badly specified fixings - just another indication of general poor quality. The other end of that rod is fixed to the door with a joint where the securing nut was loose enough that I could turn it with my fingers.

I mentioned in a previous post about a bad smell coming from the sink. That seemed worse on the northbound journey than the southbound one, so perhaps is an intermittent problem.

The illuminated surrounds to the lightswitches that several others have mentioned are indeed too bright and a disturbance once all other lights are off.

I don't know if the general ride is better or worse than the mk3s. I couldn't confidently say. We were in a cabin towards the centre of the coach (7) so there may be more noise and lumpiness if you're closer over a bogie. There seemed to be more noise and bumpiness from track joints in the carriage we cam back down on, than there was on the way up.

On the way north, I didn't even notice or wake up while we were split apart at edinburgh - neither did my travelling partner. There was however quite a big jolt during the joining process on the southbound trip, which was a little disappointing, as the new couplings were supposedly going to make this a more gentle procedure.

The beds themselves seemed perfectly comfortable, maybe even a bit more comfortable than the mk3 ones.

I can see that the general impression of the common areas, like the vestibules, must be much better to a "regular" passenger than they were before. I'm still bitter at the loss of opening windows, but the clanking, creaking and slightly drafty bits between the mk3s have now been replaced with something more refined, and the info screens are useful (when they are showing info - at one point they'd all stopped showing the carriage numbers meaning you had no idea which carriage you were in).

There seems to be exceptionally fierce aircon in the passageways - sounds a bit like being in a wind tunnel - maybe they have it turned up to max for Covid reasons.

I'll look forward to doing a trip (hopefully) once we can use the lounge car again. For me, that's quite an essential part of the experience, if you're on one of the Highland trains.

That‘s a very balanced and fair review I think. I must say I do find the Mk5s a vast improvement, but that may be because the Mk2s and Mk3s on my last few trips were in a terrible state, and that has stuck in my mind. While I too miss the drop lights for scenic viewing, I don’t miss the draughts in the train in autumn and winter. I don’t find the Mk5s are necessarily a revolution, though, and they do have their niggling issues/design flaws which hopefully will be fixed at an overhaul at some point in the future. That said, perhaps most importantly, I sleep a lot better on the Mk5s than I ever did on the Mk3s.

You definitely want the lounge car to enjoy the scenery properly on the Fort William and Inverness runs, but I must say that I find the Mk5 lounge car itself a bit of a damp squib, and definitely one element that is lacking compared with its Mk2 predecessor (when it worked, that is). It just seems very cold and clinical, and somehow a bit depressing and uninviting on a winter’s night (when I last used a lounge car in late February, the menu hadn’t changed much from Mk2 days, so not much has changed on the food front). Maybe that’s just personal taste. You also can’t comfortably fit a dinner plate and drink on the saw-tooth bar table, which seems a bit of a flaw. It’s a lot better in the daytime when you’re having breakfast and watching the Highland scenery I find- it‘s much nicer then than in the evenings. Maybe the bright lights (these are dimmable I think, but most crews I’ve travelled with leave them bright for the whole journey) and the strange blue and orange seat fabric don’t help. Perhaps, again, a refit with some warmer fabrics might help?

The overriding impression (and one that I support) is that the new stock has immense potential, but there are lots of niggling faults which need rectified. Obviously, CS has bigger things to be worrying about right now, but it might be worth them thinking about these things in the future.

 

[BRX]

Does anyone know whether the sink in the CS mk5 classic cabin has both a plug hole and overflow? If so are they round and what are the dimensions? Reason for asking is I hate drainage smells and would bring my own plug and or bung for the journey! Maybe this is something CS needs to explore and determine cause. Is it failure of traps between sinks and retention tanks perhaps? Some sort of back syphonage sucking water out of traps hence smells return up the pipe?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2020 ==
Anyone got the workshop drawings for these carriages? Maybe there's a plumbing diagram?

It's one of those pop-up wastes so a bung wouldn't work there. I can't remember about the overflow.

I reckon it might be some kind of failure of traps yes.

There seems to have been a lot of problems with the plumbing in general on these coaches.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2020 ==

A good and apparently balanced report, @BRX.

I’ve selectively quoted the following excerpt, just in case what follows is useful to you or others on future trips:



The exact dimensions of the space under the beds is actually available on the Seat 61 website, and it’s quoted there as being 31cm high by 122cm wide by 54cm deep. Coincidentally, this is literally about a centimetre in each direction larger than my ‘large’ suitcase, and the measurements must be right, as the case does fit.

It’d be helpful if Caledonian Sleeper published this themselves, but I don’t think that they do.

With regard to the retaining clips for the ladder, it’s also a shame that it’s not apparently explained anywhere that, if you push the clips all the way around, 180 degrees from where they are when retaining the ladder, they themselves clip into a hidden retainer so that they don’t foul the luggage recess in any way.

Yes, I think we kind of figured out that the clips can be pushed round - however, this doesn't really work if you are trying to put something like a rucksack under there, because when you then try to pull it out again, straps and things catch on the "retained" clips, and pull them out again enough to then cause them to jam up between the bag and the top of the recess. This just seems to me like the sort of thing that would be discovered with a bit of thoughtful testing - it's something that wouldn't happen with a hard suitcase, so someone would have to think of testing putting different kinds of bags under there. Especially on the Highlander services, it's not going to be unusual that people will be travelling with rucksacks and things.

And in a two person classic cabin, they are going to be trying to fit two rucksacks in there: a design which would allow two rucksacks to be *mostly* in the recess, sticking out into the floorspace a bit, would be much more useful than a design where you can get one bag fully under, and then have to have the other one out and fully blocking the floor. The way the ladder is fixed at the bottom - tight against the bottom bunk - means you can't have a bag poking out at all, if you want to be able to use the ladder. The old design for the ladder was much more flexible.

A bit more on luggage space - I'd started to wonder if I was imagining this (and thinking of continental sleepers rather than the mk3s) but looking at some photos confirms it - loads of space where you can put smaller bags has been lost - completely lost. There's now zero shelf space apart from the very tiny ones by each bunk where there's space for a phone and bottle of water if you're lucky. So if you want to have, say, a book, or a washbag, or socks and shoes or glasses or whatever - there's nowhere to put them except on the floor or balanced on the edge of the sink. There used to be a very useful shelf running along above the window, for the upper bunk, and you could fold down a bit of shelf over the sink, in addition to the bit that crossed the foot of the bottom bunk. This was all really useful but is gone completely. I imagine that this is partly to do with a whole load of extra plumbing and AC and electrics stuff being in the ceiling and so on - but the bit of shelf you could fold down over the sink is a prime example of the kind of thing that's actually really useful in a limited space, but has been sacrificed so that there can be a "hotel style sink" which is not actually of use to anyone except the marketing people when they put photos on the website.

 

[John Bishop]

A good and apparently balanced report, @BRX.

I’ve selectively quoted the following excerpt, just in case what follows is useful to you or others on future trips:



The exact dimensions of the space under the beds is actually available on the Seat 61 website, and it’s quoted there as being 31cm high by 122cm wide by 54cm deep. Coincidentally, this is literally about a centimetre in each direction larger than my ‘large’ suitcase, and the measurements must be right, as the case does fit.

It’d be helpful if Caledonian Sleeper published this themselves, but I don’t think that they do.

With regard to the retaining clips for the ladder, it’s also a shame that it’s not apparently explained anywhere that, if you push the clips all the way around, 180 degrees from where they are when retaining the ladder, they themselves clip into a hidden retainer so that they don’t foul the luggage recess in any way.

I’ve done Caledonian Double and Classic now, haven’t experienced any faults and, personally, I liked it a lot and felt that the new stock is a step-change from what went before.

That’s not to say that I wouldn’t be somewhere on a gradient from irritated to furious if I had personally experienced some of the faults that have occurred, and I also haven’t tried the Night Riviera refurbs to see what’s been done with those.

I’ve also never had a room over the bogies on a Mk5, nor a room with the particular sort of emergency exit window that seems to be noisy.

I’m also one of those people who can rest very well on a sleeper; if not dead to the world uninterrupted sleep, then a kind of restorative dosing that leaves me in perfectly good shape the next day after a Highlander length journey. It may be for that reason that the blue nightlight doesn’t seem to bother me either.

The main bother for me has been the intercom system. It does seem unnecessarily intrusive to me - particularly the beeping when waiting for the staff to pick up.

Consider yourself lucky! Its really not a pleasant experience and one to be avoided at all costs. I just couldn’t get my head around the fact that such new rolling stock still had the bogie issue. Almost inexcusable really.

 

[peteb]

Whereas noise can be measured in dB and I'm sure if you suffered constant clanking all night a video of the noise might prompt a letter of apology/refund, I'm not sure how you can record a "bad smell", and clearly what smells sweet to one person might not to another! Any suggestions anyone?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2020 ==

Whereas noise can be measured in dB and I'm sure if you suffered constant clanking all night a video of the noise might prompt a letter of apology/refund, I'm not sure how you can record a "bad smell", and clearly what smells sweet to one person might not to another! Any suggestions anyone?

I think they should investigate whether they need to introduce an air admittance valve between the sink trap and the point where the sink waste meets the general drainage pipework. I can imagine how awful it must smell if it's a combined drain and a toilet flushes thus sucking the water out of the nearby sink traps allowing foul fetid air into the cabin. Indeed if this is the case (happy to be told its not) then there could be a serious health and safety risk. Has anyone at CS actually investigated this?

 

[TimboM]

Consider yourself lucky! Its really not a pleasant experience and one to be avoided at all costs. I just couldn’t get my head around the fact that such new rolling stock still had the bogie issue. Almost inexcusable really.

A berth over the bogies on the Mk3s wasn't exactly smooth either and also something I avoided if possible.
Unfortunately the bogies are somewhat essential, so not sure how the 'issue' could be eradicated entirely.

 

[cf111]

A berth over the bogies on the Mk3s wasn't exactly smooth either and also something I avoided if possible.
Unfortunately the bogies are somewhat essential, so not sure how the 'issue' could be eradicated entirely.

I ended up being moved to a berth over the bogies on my only trip on the mk5s (having selected one away from the things, as I always do!) and didn't find it that bad. There was some movement but it wasn't nearly as bad as the Mk3s. I can't compare it to any other position on the new stock but hopefully once things return to normal I will be able to.

 

[John Bishop]

A berth over the bogies on the Mk3s wasn't exactly smooth either and also something I avoided if possible.
Unfortunately the bogies are somewhat essential, so not sure how the 'issue' could be eradicated entirely.

Yeah, it was the same with the Mk 3s but you’d like to think that design and manufacture has advanced in over 40 years. Unless of course its being done on the cheap, and that the bogie issue was forgotten/ never considered/ ignored, delete as appropriate.

Are we going to have to put up with it for another 40 years?

 

[47271]

I've never known any coach type that doesn't give a better ride amidships than over the bogies, but on the mk5 the difference between the two cabin positions is less marked than on the mk3s.

Mk5 horizontal disturbance is way down on the mk3, especially in the forward and back axis and, or course, they've completely solved the wheezing and groaning gangways.

But like most of what CAF produces, where the mk5 is a real turkey is on sharp vertical movement combined with, or causing, that infernal knocking that breaks out every so often. Some people deny they've ever experienced it, but for me it's the biggest single shortcoming of the new sleepers. When it happens ride is truly appalling.

 

[trebor79]

Yeah, it was the same with the Mk 3s but you’d like to think that design and manufacture has advanced in over 40 years. Unless of course its being done on the cheap, and that the bogie issue was forgotten/ never considered/ ignored, delete as appropriate.

Are we going to have to put up with it for another 40 years?

Is it not just the case that there's a practical limit to which movement and noise can be damped out?
Perhaps the Mk3 got close to what is feasible?

 

[Huntergreed]

Can anyone tell me what to expect in room 06L in Coach C? Is it over the bogie?

 

[MrEd]

Can anyone tell me what to expect in room 06L in Coach C? Is it over the bogie?

That should be fairly close to the middle of the coach, so probably your best bet for a smooth ride in a Mk5 coach.

 

[PG]

Mk5 horizontal disturbance is way down on the mk3, especially in the forward and back axis and, or course, they've completely solved the wheezing and groaning gangways.

What caused the wheezing and groaning from the gangways? Was it newer technology that provided the solution or eradication of a flaw in the Mk3 design?

 

[6Z09]

What caused the wheezing and groaning from the gangways? Was it newer technology that provided the solution or eradication of a flaw in the Mk3 design?

New technology, the old gangways were prone to a snowdrift or two entering the train on a winter's night !

 

[FQTV]

Is it not just the case that there's a practical limit to which movement and noise can be damped out?
Perhaps the Mk3 got close to what is feasible?

I suspect that's probably right, although there are plenty of examples of new stock coming into service and then works being done to improve things - MkIVs being particularly memorable for initially significantly improving demand for dentistry!

I think that it's also true that the more experienced that you are at sleeper travel, you by default become part of a self-selected sample that can cope with the various 'charms' of resting horizontally on a train. In my head, I tell myself that I actually prefer Amtrak-style longitudinal berths, but there again I am also conscious that, especially upstairs on Superliner double deck ones, the amount of sway even in the lower berth can be significant, and in the upper one it's like being in a hammock on Cook's Endeavour..... No bogie issues though, even right over them, as you're so vertically far away.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

What caused the wheezing and groaning from the gangways?

It was most likely just air pumping in and out of the small holes in the gangways as they contracted and expanded.

 

[cf111]

New technology, the old gangways were prone to a snowdrift or two entering the train on a winter's night !

I always enjoyed being surprised by the in built weather forecast on the old stock

 

[47271]

Old sleeper gangway noise was no worse than in any other mk3 coach, so identical to that heard now on a Scotrail HST - except you were trying to get a night's sleep. Mk5 bogies might be a mixed picture to put it mildly, but technology has moved on in this respect in 40 years thank goodness.

I'm no technical expert, I'm a mere passenger, but I get the impression that the mk5's Dellner couplings may be helping quite a bit with the fore and aft jiggling and noise that used to be a challenge on the old stock. So bad was it that on arrival at Euston in the morning I used to stay seated on the side of the bed until that final sickening judder that went through the entire train happened, and I knew that it was safe to stand.

 

[BRX]

I'm no technical expert, I'm a mere passenger, but I get the impression that the mk5's Dellner couplings may be helping quite a bit with the fore and aft jiggling and noise that used to be a challenge on the old stock.

That was my impression too. Didn't notice any of that lurching forwards or backwards that used to be quite characteristic (and you get it a bit in HSTs too). I noticed that some station stops were very gentle, and others not so, which must be determined by some extent by the driver.

 

[philthetube]

possibly gradients as well.

 

[TimboM]

That was my impression too. Didn't notice any of that lurching forwards or backwards that used to be quite characteristic (and you get it a bit in HSTs too). I noticed that some station stops were very gentle, and others not so, which must be determined by some extent by the driver.

The Mk5s' brakes are very keen. I understand it's quite a challenge to get them to get them to come to a final halt smoothly.

 

[BRX]

They certainly seemed quite keen on the two false-alarm emergency stops I experienced.

 

[Huntergreed]

Also one question I have, are the room windows facing to the left or the right?

 

[Mag_seven]

Also one question I have, are the room windows facing to the left or the right?

That will depend on what what way round the coach is. I don't think each set is consistent (that was certainly the case with the Mark 3s)

 

[BRX]

Yeah, they are a mixture, like the mk3s always were.

 

[alangla]

Seems another strike is brewing

RMT votes for strike to 'bring Caledonian Sleeper to its knees' over rest space

A rail union has threatened to bring Caledonian Sleeper “to its knees” after staff voted to strike over using spare berths for rest breaks during extended shifts.

www.scotsman.com

Quote:
Mick Hogg, the union’s Scottish organiser, said: “We will now be demanding that more berths are allocated to staff for the purpose of rest periods and down time for staff, as opposed to the corporate greed of Serco who have been more interested in selling berths at £500 each rather than addressing the staff’s fatigue issues.
“If this outfit don’t meet our demands we will bring them to their knees.”

 

[Bald Rick]

Seems another strike is brewing

RMT votes for strike to 'bring Caledonian Sleeper to its knees' over rest space

A rail union has threatened to bring Caledonian Sleeper “to its knees” after staff voted to strike over using spare berths for rest breaks during extended shifts.

www.scotsman.com

Quote:
Mick Hogg, the union’s Scottish organiser, said: “We will now be demanding that more berths are allocated to staff for the purpose of rest periods and down time for staff, as opposed to the corporate greed of Serco who have been more interested in selling berths at £500 each rather than addressing the staff’s fatigue issues.
“If this outfit don’t meet our demands we will bring them to their knees.”

How does the amount of berth space provided for staff for down time compare to the Mark 3s?

 

[CW2]

For the record, the Fort William line has been blocked by a landslip between Upper Tyndrum and Bridge of Orchy since Sunday 13 September. The line is expected to reopen tomorrow - Friday 18th September. The Edinburgh - Fort William portion 1Y11 ran as far as Motherwell this morning - presumably for road transport forward. Meanwhile the Inverness portion is a 66 + 73 combo once more.

 

[Meerkat]

Seems another strike is brewing

RMT votes for strike to 'bring Caledonian Sleeper to its knees' over rest space

A rail union has threatened to bring Caledonian Sleeper “to its knees” after staff voted to strike over using spare berths for rest breaks during extended shifts.

www.scotsman.com

Quote:
Mick Hogg, the union’s Scottish organiser, said: “We will now be demanding that more berths are allocated to staff for the purpose of rest periods and down time for staff, as opposed to the corporate greed of Serco who have been more interested in selling berths at £500 each rather than addressing the staff’s fatigue issues.
“If this outfit don’t meet our demands we will bring them to their knees.”

What century are the RMT in?
Anyone know the facts here, because the RMT’s language instinctively makes me think they are more interested in the politics of a forced nationalisation of CS than the actual welfare of their members and the public.

 

[Bald Rick]

What century are the RMT in?
Anyone know the facts here, because the RMT’s language instinctively makes me think they are more interested in the politics of a forced nationalisation of CS than the actual welfare of their members and the public.

The RMT are having what might be politely termed ‘artistic differences’ at high level, so their current messaging may be a little disjointed or unrepresentative.

 

[Meerkat]

The RMT are having what might be politely termed ‘artistic differences’ at high level, so their current messaging may be a little disjointed or unrepresentative.

Interesting - any published information/speculation?