Caledonian Sleeper

[d9009alycidon]

Welcoming (or otherwise) depots sounds like a good topic for a thread

 

[Speed43125]

Southbound inverness has 66727 Maritime Livery subbing in for a 73 tonight. We still suffering shortages? or is it a one off unavailable loco?

 

[JonathanH]

Southbound inverness has 66727 Maritime Livery subbing in for a 73 tonight. We still suffering shortages? or is it a one off unavailable loco?

66727 has been on since Friday morning.

73967 and 73970 appear to be the engines stopped. A 66 appears to step in when only four 73s are available.

66727 is in its second spell on the sleeper workings after working two days in mid-December.

 

[Drumtochty]

There was a second 73 at Fort William on Tuesday to recover the carriage stuck at Tulloch back to Fort William.

There is also talk of 37688 being at Fort William Yard with a Dellner coupling at the same height as the Sleeper stock but only at one end of the Loco.

Strange!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TimboM]

There was a second 73 at Fort William on Tuesday to recover the carriage stuck at Tulloch back to Fort William.

There is also talk of 37688 being at Fort William Yard with a Dellner coupling at the same height as the Sleeper stock but only at one end of the Loco.

Strange!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Before folk get carried away, 15326 is on the back of an Allelys low-loader at Fort William awaiting road transport south - going to Kilmarnock (Brodie's) reportedly.

Oops off topic. But I can see 15340 only getting back into service if CS are VERY desperate.

Or it could be that it took a while to determine who was liable to pay for the repairs before they commenced?

There's reason(s) why the other 153xx aren't in service yet. In due course they will form an additional unit (CS09).​

 

[Roger B]

Before folk get carried away, 15326 is on the back of an Allelys low-loader at Fort William awaiting road transport south - going to Kilmarnock (Brodie's) reportedly.

Or it could be that it took a while to determine who was liable to pay for the repairs before they commenced?

There's reason(s) why the other 153xx aren't in service yet. In due course they will form an additional unit (CS09).​

Very interesting - thanks TimboM. And what's the expected use of CS09 - is to to allow rotation out of service of other half-sets for deep-clean / snagging / addressing other issues that have arisen with the fleet (as recorded in this thread and elsewhere)? Or perhaps, CS are contemplating running an additional service with it - although it's not obvious where there's a possibility of running a service that would cover its costs, and I'd be very surprised if CS were to do anything to increase the financial losses it's already incurring. It would be great if anyone 'in the know' could spill the beans about the intended use of CS09, thanks.

 

[TimboM]

Very interesting - thanks TimboM. And what's the expected use of CS09 - is to to allow rotation out of service of other half-sets for deep-clean / snagging / addressing other issues that have arisen with the fleet (as recorded in this thread and elsewhere)? Or perhaps, CS are contemplating running an additional service with it - although it's not obvious where there's a possibility of running a service that would cover its costs, and I'd be very surprised if CS were to do anything to increase the financial losses it's already incurring. It would be great if anyone 'in the know' could spill the beans about the intended use of CS09, thanks.

The plan is in due course there'll be 9x eight-car Units (plus an additional brake/seats + lounge pair for the Fort William, plus one spare brake/seats coach).

The Units would be swapped out in rotation at Polmadie for maintenance - i.e. eight Units working and the ninth on maintenance at any one time. That's the theory anyway.

Definitely no plans to run anything else with it - there's 75 coaches for 66 needed every night to allow capacity for maintenance/repairs etc. This is how it's been on the Caledonian Sleeper for several years (was the same number with Mk3s/Mk2s) so suggestions there aren't enough etc are wide of the mark. As has been mentioned above, the rakes are very rarely short-formed (barring major wheelflats issues!)

 

[tshanazt]

03:34 Preston PSB advise that 1M11 CS 2340 Glasgow Central to London Euston is at a stand with a fault on one of the coaches that has caused a brake application.

RTT "This service was cancelled between Wigan North Western and London Euston due to a problem with the doors."

 

[voyagerdude220]

CS tickets were accepted on the heavily delayed Avanti 1R20 04:28 Glasgow to Euston between Wigan and Euston.

I wonder if CS would have to pay Avanti a large sum of money for this to be agreed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if CS would have to pay Avanti a large sum of money for this to be agreed?

The absolute maximum it could be is £169.50 per person for an Anytime Single, as there's nothing to stop them just standing at the TVM with the corporate card buying them a ticket, and there's not really anything Avanti could do to prevent that.

 

[Drumtochty]

Before folk get carried away, 15326 is on the back of an Allelys low-loader at Fort William awaiting road transport south - going to Kilmarnock (Brodie's) reportedly.

That was my original thoughts of what would happen.

 

[DelW]

The absolute maximum it could be is £169.50 per person for an Anytime Single, as there's nothing to stop them just standing at the TVM with the corporate card buying them a ticket, and there's not really anything Avanti could do to prevent that.

But in addition to the ticket acceptance, the Avanti train picked up over an hour delay between Preston and Wigan, presumably caused by the sleeper issue, and arrived at Euston 81 late; so depending on what delayed the sleeper, CS might be liable for the Avanti train's delay repay bill?

 

[Elecman]

But in addition to the ticket acceptance, the Avanti train picked up over an hour delay between Preston and Wigan, presumably caused by the sleeper issue, and arrived at Euston 81 late; so depending on what delayed the sleeper, CS might be liable for the Avanti train's delay repay bill?

No they wont, that’s not how Delay Repay works. CS may well have to pay Network Rail for the delay TOC on TOC that it caused and Avanti will claim off Network Rail.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The plan is in due course there'll be 9x eight-car Units (plus an additional brake/seats + lounge pair for the Fort William, plus one spare brake/seats coach).

The Units would be swapped out in rotation at Polmadie for maintenance - i.e. eight Units working and the ninth on maintenance at any one time. That's the theory anyway.

Definitely no plans to run anything else with it - there's 75 coaches for 66 needed every night to allow capacity for maintenance/repairs etc. This is how it's been on the Caledonian Sleeper for several years (was the same number with Mk3s/Mk2s) so suggestions there aren't enough etc are wide of the mark. As has been mentioned above, the rakes are very rarely short-formed (barring major wheelflats issues!)

As you say. There is meant to be a complete spare set (CS09) and nothing unusual as that is what happened with the Mk3s+Mk2s. What interests me is that CS seem to be coping without the one complete (*) spare set. Or is there a time looming when work required on a set will take more than a weekend ?. A more major exam perhaps ?.

*= I think you explained a while ago that the complete spare set is (would be) formed 150xx + 151xx + 152xx +153xx +153xx +153xx +153xx +152xx which matches four of the eight in service. And that, therefore, if replacing one of the other four sets then the end 152xx needs to be dropped in favour of one of the 153xx in the set being relieved. So not necessarily an entire set ever needs replacing in one go. But I guess (hope) a time is coming where the four unused coaches and the damaged 15340 will be needed.

 

[TimboM]

As you say. There is meant to be a complete spare set (CS09) and nothing unusual as that is what happened with the Mk3s+Mk2s. What interests me is that CS seem to be coping without the one complete (*) spare set. Or is there a time looming when work required on a set will take more than a weekend ?. A more major exam perhaps ?.

The (in service) coaches of the ninth unit are being used as spares at the moment to swap out coaches that need repair (including bumped 15340 and square-wheeled 15326). It could well stay like this if that's easier to manage than a whole unit being swapped out.

There's also one unit running with 3x PRMs in at the moment, together with occasions where 2x PRM units have worked on the 1x PRM diagrams. Requires a bit of room shuffling, but generally not a major problem.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The (in service) coaches of the ninth unit are being used as spares at the moment to swap out coaches that need repair (including bumped 15340 and square-wheeled 15326). It could well stay like this if that's easier to manage than a whole unit being swapped out.

There's also one unit running with 3x PRMs in at the moment, together with occasions where 2x PRM units have worked on the 1x PRM diagrams. Requires a bit of room shuffling, but generally not a major problem.

Indeed, CS do seem to be managing without the last four coaches. Makes me wonder when they will ever be needed !. Obviously 15001 is meant to be completely spare anyway.

Your right about the PRMs - I have noticed the number of PRM (152xx) coaches used instead of non-PRM (153xx) coaches. In fact one of the Fortwilliam portions comprises two PRM (152xx) coaches and only one non-PRM (153xx) currently. I suppose the PRM (152xx) coaches are more sensible as a spare anyway as they cover two roles. I suppose the only challenge is less berths in a PRM coach ?. But better than ending up with no PRM coach as I imagine that could be breaking the rules of the contract even if there is no actual passenger requiring the facilities on a particular journey ?.

 

[TimboM]

Indeed, CS do seem to be managing without the last four coaches. Makes me wonder when they will ever be needed !. Obviously 15001 is meant to be completely spare anyway.

Your right about the PRMs - I have noticed the number of PRM (152xx) coaches used instead of non-PRM (153xx) coaches. In fact one of the Fortwilliam portions comprises two PRM (152xx) coaches and only one non-PRM (153xx) currently. I suppose the PRM (152xx) coaches are more sensible as a spare anyway as they cover two roles. I suppose the only challenge is less berths in a PRM coach ?. But better than ending up with no PRM coach as I imagine that could be breaking the rules of the contract even if there is no actual passenger requiring the facilities on a particular journey ?.

The one spare brake/seats coach (when all operational in due course) won't be the same one all the time - they'll rotate (especially the FTW day coaches). The 150xx have already shuffled a fair bit between units, as have many other coaches.

6 Berths in a PRM vs 10 in a standard Sleeper. Think it'd be braking the law these days (rather than a franchise requirement) if there wasn't suitable PRM provision on the train.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The one spare brake/seats coach (when all operational in due course) won't be the same one all the time - they'll rotate (especially the FTW day coaches). The 150xx have already shuffled a fair bit between units, as have many other coaches.

6 Berths in a PRM vs 10 in a standard Sleeper. Think it'd be braking the law these days (rather than a franchise requirement) if there wasn't suitable PRM provision on the train.

Thanks for the info so a PRM costs 40% of the berths. Yes of course, now you mention it, the law !.

 

[JonathanH]

Having an explicit ninth set does seem inconsistent with the way things are operating at the moment, particularly with the Fort William 'day coaches' and the way in which they get swapped over since there are only 10 Club Car vehicles available.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Having an explicit ninth set does seem inconsistent with the way things are operating at the moment, particularly with the Fort William 'day coaches' and the way in which they get swapped over since there are only 10 Club Car vehicles available.

It has been puzzling me a bit (just looking for something tidy) and they don't seem to need the ninth set.

To recap there are supposed to be nine 8-coach sets with eight in use on any one day. - 72 coaches.
Also a seated coach (150xx) and a club car (151xx) to add to the FortWilliam portion at Edinburgh. - 2 coaches.
Finally s seated coach (150xx) that is totally spare - 1 coach. Now, as explained up thread, that is an important spare as an 8-car set (or shorter) cannot operate without a sesated coach. It has the brains in it to control the doors, brakes and maybe other things in upto 8 coaches. So there is one more than the club cars.
So a total of 75 coaches.

Now with the 8-car sets there are two formations as four of the eight in service have a normal sleeper coach (153xx) replaced by a PRM version (152xx). The ninth 8-car set is the same so it is not a perfect replacement for 50% of the 8-car sets in service on any one day. To me that undermines the point (if any) of having a complete 8-car set spare !.

As you say. They don't seem to need the ninth set in its entirety. Mind you we don't know how much the fitters at Polmadie are pulling their hair out coping. Possibly with overtime in which case it is the management pulling their own hair out !.

 

[Speed43125]

Just seen the southbound Inverness passing DBL 30 minutes early, without stopping, with only 4 carriages, but still had 2x 73 on the head What's going on?

 

[JonathanH]

Just seen the southbound Inverness passing DBL 30 minutes early, without stopping, with only 4 carriages, but still had 2x 73 on the head What's going on?

Aberdeen portion diverted via Dunblane because of engineering work.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C75041/2020-03-15/detailed

Inverness portion follows it with a 67 and 73

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C36781/2020-03-15/detailed

Runs earlier on a Sunday in any case to allow for single line working between Carstairs and Carlisle (if needed).

 

[marks87]

Just seen the southbound Inverness passing DBL 30 minutes early, without stopping, with only 4 carriages, but still had 2x 73 on the head What's going on?

That was the Aberdeen.

Routed via Perth and Stirling tonight because of engineering works in Fife.

 

[Speed43125]

Aberdeen portion diverted via Dunblane because of engineering work.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C75041/2020-03-15/detailed

Inverness portion follows it with a 67 and 73

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C36781/2020-03-15/detailed

Runs earlier on a Sunday in any case to allow for single line working between Carstairs and Carlisle (if needed).

Ah okay. Thanks, that makes sense, dunno what I was thinking given I'd seen all the extra Azumas today.
Actual Inverness portion is still maritime 66 + 73.
Thanks

 

[ScottDarg]

Club Cars are closed tonight (and presumably for the foreseeable?) in line with the governments advice on Covid-19. Food and drink will be offered via room service:

In light of recent #Covid-19 developments, club cars will be closed tonight. Food and drink will be offered via room service, this is a temporary measure as we consider fully Government advice.

We thank all guests for their patience, updates will follow in due course.

https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1239625283243773960?s=19

Similarly, CS are currently reviewing their refund and travel alterations policy. Revised version to appear tomorrow:

Following this evening’s Government announcement on #COVID19, we're reviewing our policy on refunds and travel alterations for guests with fixed tickets.

We'll issue our updated policy tomorrow afternoon, when all details have been confirmed.

https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1239630201388175362?s=19

 

[JohnMcL7]

Is it normal for them to run a pair of 73's on the Aberdeen portion?

 

[Far north 37]

There was a second 73 at Fort William on Tuesday to recover the carriage stuck at Tulloch back to Fort William.

There is also talk of 37688 being at Fort William Yard with a Dellner coupling at the same height as the Sleeper stock but only at one end of the Loco.

Strange!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was the loco off the sleeper that recovered the coach at tulloch no second 73 was there or required.

 

[Far north 37]

Is it normal for them to run a pair of 73's on the Aberdeen portion?

Ocasionally yes.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it normal for them to run a pair of 73's on the Aberdeen portion?

They typically use the Aberdeen portion to test run a locomotive after repairs / maintenance.

 

[Maxfly]

Was the loco off the sleeper that recovered the coach at tulloch no second 73 was there or required.

Definitely two 73’s came up on 1Y11 and then went to Tulloch and returned with the coach.