Caledonian Sleeper

[theironroad]

While some tourists have all the time in the world and a delay of a few hours will just be part of the journey, sometimes air/rail/sea/road connections are time critical, often by minutes.

I'd be pretty hacked off if a arrival at fort William was hours late, missing a connection to Mallaig and thus a ferry to the small isles or elsewhere that may be daily..

 

[BRX]

While some tourists have all the time in the world and a delay of a few hours will just be part of the journey, sometimes air/rail/sea/road connections are time critical, often by minutes.

I'd be pretty hacked off if a arrival at fort William was hours late, missing a connection to Mallaig and thus a ferry to the small isles or elsewhere that may be daily..

Thing is that the 'connection' at mallaig is so rubbish anyway, the sleeper has to be more than two hours late to miss it...

 

[Statto]

Thing is that the 'connection' at mallaig is so rubbish anyway, the sleeper has to be more than two hours late to miss it...

Not necessarily, a few tourists will be hoping to make The Jacobite steam train, that departs Fort William 10.15, just under 20 minutes after the arrival of the sleeper.

 

[Merseysider]

Not necessarily, a few tourists will be hoping to make The Jacobite steam train, that departs Fort William 10.15, just under 20 minutes after the arrival of the sleeper.

That's just asking for trouble

 

[Glenn1969]

Going the other way the arrival from Mallaig arrives at Fort William 13 mins before departure of the Sleeper. If that train is late what are sleeper passengers supposed to do?

 

[Taunton]

I was surprised last Tuesday morning, 13 Aug, when departing Euston on the 10.07 to Liverpool, to run out in parallel with the empty stock Mk 3 sleeper which was on the slow line, the Class 86, 53 years old, notably fully keeping up alongside the Liverpool Pendolino up Camden Bank and as far out as Kensal Green. Can it be that it is allowed to sit in Euston platforms through the peak hour until 10.00 ?

 

[TimboM]

I was surprised last Tuesday morning, 13 Aug, when departing Euston on the 10.07 to Liverpool, to run out in parallel with the empty stock Mk 3 sleeper which was on the slow line, the Class 86, 53 years old, notably fully keeping up alongside the Liverpool Pendolino up Camden Bank and as far out as Kensal Green. Can it be that it is allowed to sit in Euston platforms through the peak hour until 10.00 ?

The 86 will have had 16 trucks and a Skoda on the back too - about 700 tonne I think - somewhat heavier than a Pendo.

The Highlander ECS is booked to leave Euston (P15) at 10:07 so it is most certainly allowed to stay in Platform until then - it used to be booked to depart at 09:27 from memory, but since the May timetable change for reasons someone else may be able to explain it now leaves 40 mins later (and likewise the Lowlander ECS now leaves at 08:54 vice 08:27).

 

[MrEd]

Going the other way the arrival from Mallaig arrives at Fort William 13 mins before departure of the Sleeper. If that train is late what are sleeper passengers supposed to do?

Both the 18.15 Mallaig to Fort William (arriving 19:37) and the 19.50 Euston sleeper are national rail services, and the sleeper is a valid connection off the 18.15 Mallaig to Fort William, as it allows a connection time greater than the minimum of five minutes. This means that if the Mallaig train arrives late and the sleeper leaves without you, Scotrail legally have to provide either alternative transport or overnight accommodation. It is very common for the conductor on this train (during his ticket inspection) to ask passengers whether they have onward connections at Fort William, so speak up if you have one with the sleeper. My guess is that as a taxi will have caught up with the sleeper by Bridge of Orchy (or certainly Tyndrum or Crianlarich), Scotrail will put you in a taxi as far as there so that you can catch up with the sleeper (they could perhaps even take you as far as Dumbarton- the sleeper is not a fast train over the WHL so a taxi will be able to catch it up). If that is not possible, then overnight accommodation will need to be arranged at Fort William, and tickets endorsed for travel the following day.

I was once on the 17.13 Kyle to Inverness train (booked arrival 20:00) which should arrive in Inverness 45 minutes before the sleeper leaves. We were delayed an hour en route due to a forest fire at Achnashellach, and the conductor (who I’d told about my connection) came to see me and said that she would make some enquiries. Unfortunately, as we were running so late, the only plausible option was overnight accommodation at Scotrail’s expense and tickets endorsed for a day train south the following day. I didn’t mind as the following day was a Saturday, and Scotrail did everything that they could have done in the situation.

 

[47271]

I've got a feeling that one of the reasons that the Fort William connection is tight is historical in that in days of yore, and I mean before mk3s, the three day coaches off the sleeper continued to Mallaig and back in the evening. So it was effectively the same train, with First Class, a kitchen, the lot, and you could get on at Mallaig, eat, and then go to bed whenever you liked after Fort William.

I can think of worse lessons that could be taken from history. The tourist industry would burst with excitement.

 

[Taunton]

The 86 will have had 16 trucks and a Skoda on the back too - about 700 tonne I think - somewhat heavier than a Pendo.

Thank you.

That was quite a performance then for the Old Girl. It would be nice to think that, still earning its keep in mainstream service, it was the same one that I saw 54 years ago, Christmas 1965, brand new, pushed into a bay platform at, of all places, York south end, well off any electrification then, doubtless somehow on the way from it's birthplace at Doncaster works to the WCML. It was in as good, near-shiny external condition now as then, being back in it's old colours. 1 in 100 chance I suppose.

 

[Garmoran]

I've got a feeling that one of the reasons that the Fort William connection is tight is historical in that in days of yore, and I mean before mk3s, the three day coaches off the sleeper continued to Mallaig and back in the evening. So it was effectively the same train, with First Class, a kitchen, the lot, and you could get on at Mallaig, eat, and then go to bed whenever you liked after Fort William.

Not exactly. Up until the timetable was reconfigured for the Sprinters (1988?), the sleepers formed part of the 3 normal Glasgow-Fort William services, conveyed on the 0600 from Queen Street and 1600 from Mallaig. The sleepers and the day coach were attached or detached at Fort William and other coaches including a buffet travelled between Glasgow and Mallaig.
There was a buffet car service "available for whole or part or journey". It did not travel south of Glasgow.

 

[47271]

Not exactly. Up until the timetable was reconfigured for the Sprinters (1988?), the sleepers formed part of the 3 normal Glasgow-Fort William services, conveyed on the 0600 from Queen Street and 1600 from Mallaig. The sleepers and the day coach were attached or detached at Fort William and other coaches including a buffet travelled between Glasgow and Mallaig.
There was a buffet car service "available for whole or part or journey". It did not travel south of Glasgow.

Fair enough, I'm only going by what I've been told, but I was close! My main point was that ancient history may play a part in the tight connections.

In theory the sleeper lounge and seated coach could still work through to Mallaig as scenic stock. Not that it'll ever happen.

 

[alangla]

I've got a feeling that one of the reasons that the Fort William connection is tight is historical in that in days of yore, and I mean before mk3s, the three day coaches off the sleeper continued to Mallaig and back in the evening. So it was effectively the same train, with First Class, a kitchen, the lot, and you could get on at Mallaig, eat, and then go to bed whenever you liked after Fort William.

I can think of worse lessons that could be taken from history. The tourist industry would burst with excitement.

Was the connection not a bit longer in class 37 days and made tighter after the journey times were extended with the class 67s?

 

[Kendalian]

In ScotRail sleeper days (and a bit into Serco ) didn’t the guard off the Mallaig service work the sleeper as far as Rannoch? They couldn’t go without him/her, even Serco!

 

[MrEd]

In ScotRail sleeper days (and a bit into Serco ) didn’t the guard off the Mallaig service work the sleeper as far as Rannoch? They couldn’t go without him/her, even Serco!

Yes that’s absolutely right, for many years (this arrangement probably goes back to BR days) he was a Scotrail Fort William guard who I think worked the 16.19 FW-Mallaig and 18.15 return, then the 19.50 Sleeper to Rannoch and passenger back to Fort William on the evening Glasgow-Mallaig, getting back about 22.00. This meant that the connection with the Sleeper was guaranteed, until Serco started to use their own train managers in May 2017.

The CS train manager nowadays usually comes up passenger from his base at Dalmuir on the mid-day Glasgow-Mallaig, then works the sleeper back to Dalmuir.

 

[BRX]

Not necessarily, a few tourists will be hoping to make The Jacobite steam train, that departs Fort William 10.15, just under 20 minutes after the arrival of the sleeper.

Sure, but it's not a 'connection' as such - you can't buy a through ticket, it's a lot more expensive than the regular service, and you can't rely on being able to get a walk-up ticket. Unlike with a normal connecting service neither company is going to help you if you miss it.

Combine this with the big gap until the Scotrail service, the fact that CS do everything they can to discourage through tickets, and the fairly rubbish train/ferry connections at Mallaig and you end up with a situation opportunities for better use of the Mallaig line are wasted.

 

[Hipster Dashie]

the fact that CS do everything they can to discourage through tickets

That is an interesting thought actually, and I must admit I've never seen the option of buying an advance ticket for travel on the sleeper, where the journey does not wholly take place on the sleeper. I.e. a Euston to Fort William advance classic single is fine, however a Bitterne to Mallaig advance single with a sleeper berth included, for example, is not.

The only way I can see you doing a through ticket would be to purchase the relevant Off Peak ticket before adding on a berth supplement. This seems to make the journey horrendously expensive. However, if you split the journey into your sleeper advance, and then your journeys before and after, you lose the protection that travelling on a through ticket offers.

 

[Struner]

Indeed, it’s a Special, just like the Harry Potter train, but this is more like the Fawlty Towers train.

 

[185143]

That is an interesting thought actually, and I must admit I've never seen the option of buying an advance ticket for travel on the sleeper, where the journey does not wholly take place on the sleeper. I.e. a Euston to Fort William advance classic single is fine, however a Bitterne to Mallaig advance single with a sleeper berth included, for example, is not.

The only way I can see you doing a through ticket would be to purchase the relevant Off Peak ticket before adding on a berth supplement. This seems to make the journey horrendously expensive. However, if you split the journey into your sleeper advance, and then your journeys before and after, you lose the protection that travelling on a through ticket offers.

What protection is that then?

 

[Essexman]

I normally use the sleeper alone but have persuaded my wife to accompany me to Edinburgh. CS website shows I can use just one Flexipass ticket to book two passengers into a club room. Is that correct? If so it seems a good deal.

 

[BRX]

What protection is that then?

It makes it clear it's the TOCs' responsibility to sort you out if connections are missed due to late trains. In theory this is still the case when the tickets are bought independently (I think) but in practice seems to be less strictly observed and to be a source of disagreements.

It used to be the case (in scotrail days) that you could quite easily buy a sleeper ticket with a connection through to eg. Mallaig. Now they have separated ticketing off to their own website, there's no way to do it except as Hipster Dashie describes above. Some might wonder if it's convenient for CS to minimise the number of passengers on board with onward connections.

Somehow different rules seem to apply, re. ticket sales, for this franchise, compared to all others. Who else is allowed to sell exclusively their own tickets?

 

[47271]

I normally use the sleeper alone but have persuaded my wife to accompany me to Edinburgh. CS website shows I can use just one Flexipass ticket to book two passengers into a club room. Is that correct? If so it seems a good deal.

Can you post the detail, I hadn't heard of this and can't find it on the website?

I know one or two Flexipass users who would be interested in this if it's right. They would also be quite annoyed that it hasn't been drawn to their attention by CS.

 

[alistairlees]

I normally use the sleeper alone but have persuaded my wife to accompany me to Edinburgh. CS website shows I can use just one Flexipass ticket to book two passengers into a club room. Is that correct? If so it seems a good deal.

Are you booking the lowlander (any date) or the highlander after 30 September? For a journey from London to Glasgow in mid-September, for two adults, I can get the booking engine to show “1 flexipass per room” on the page that has Double, Club, Classic and Seats on it. When I choose either Club or Classic though and move to the next page it charges 2 flexipass (1 for each person), which is expected. Is that what you are seeing?

 

[Hipster Dashie]

What protection is that then?

As well as the aforementioned through journey protection (the TOCs would be obligated to get you to your final destination as opposed to what was on that particular split of your ticket) you'd also be entitled for a much larger degree of Delay Repay.

 

[MrEd]

Some might wonder if it's convenient for CS to minimise the number of passengers on board with onward connections.

I would be surprised if that genuinely was the case, as the staff on the Highlander to Inverness seem to place great importance on finding out whether their passengers have onward connections to Kyle, Wick, Elgin or wherever. This is particularly the case when the train is late, as the hosts will even ask passengers about onward connections when they bring morning tea/breakfast, and the train manager or team leader will sweep through the seated coach and lounge car asking the same questions. I always have a connection with the 08:55 Kyle train whenever I use the Inverness sleeper, and when the sleeper has been delayed, I’ve always been offered either a taxi to Plockton/Duirinish/Kyle or the endorsement of my ticket for travel on the 10:56 to Kyle at CS’ expense (generally this is the preferred option if the delayed sleeper arrives after 10am). I’ve never ever been stranded nor forced to buy a new ticket in this situation, and have never had a through ticket (always a CS fixed advance on the sleeper and a Scotrail advance on the 08:55 Inverness to Kyle- hence the need for the endorsement). As long as it is a legitimate connection and a valid itinerary (according to stipulated minimum connection times), I was of the impression that CS were obliged to provide alternative transport/endorse the ticket for any onward connection (if not a flexible ticket). Whether or not I had a through ticket seemed to me to be irrelevant in this situation. Perhaps CS were just being nice (though I somehow doubt that any TOC would pay an Inverness to Kyle taxi fare- around £165- just to be ’nice’; it seems to me more likely that they are obliged to provide this).

The chance to buy a through ticket from London to Kyle would be great, though- another thing I miss from Scotrail days. I do hope that CS management realise that a good number of passengers on the Inverness sleeper are going to destinations much further away than Inverness (Caithness/Orkney/Lochalsh/Skye seem to be particularly common among the passengers I speak to).

 

[cambsy]

Ive noticed recently on this thread, that the discussion has moved onto connections off the sleepers, and other topics, which to me is good news, in that the MK5 sleepers are not being mentioned much at the moment, so most of the time they must be performing reasonably well and bedding down ok, looks like maybe Serco are starting to get on top of the new stock and working out the various problems with the new stock, I think as with anything new it takes time to sort out problems and this is very true with the new stock, in the not too distant future all the problems they are having will be past memory and the MK5’s can settle down to to doing what they were bought to do, plodding up and the WCML, providing a decent service for may years to come.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The chance to buy a through ticket from London to Kyle would be great, though- another thing I miss from Scotrail days.

You can. Buy an Any Permitted Super Off Peak Single or Return from London to Kyle from the retailer of your choice, then buy a room supplement from CS (perhaps best the other way round in case CS are sold out). It might not be cheaper but it does give you what you want.

What's an interesting comparison with the GWR sleeper is that they very much push using walk-ups plus a supplement and barely sell any Advances (if any at all) on the Sleeper.

 

[Essexman]

Are you booking the lowlander (any date) or the highlander after 30 September? For a journey from London to Glasgow in mid-September, for two adults, I can get the booking engine to show “1 flexipass per room” on the page that has Double, Club, Classic and Seats on it. When I choose either Club or Classic though and move to the next page it charges 2 flexipass (1 for each person), which is expected. Is that what you are seeing?

Yes Lowlander for October. It shows one Flexipass ticket for club class but I didn’t go to next stage.

 

[MrEd]

You can. Buy an Any Permitted Super Off Peak Single or Return from London to Kyle from the retailer of your choice, then buy a room supplement from CS (perhaps best the other way round in case CS are sold out). It might not be cheaper but it does give you what you want.

The only reason I don’t do this is that it makes the journey very expensive (walk up anytime fares on the London-Scotland route seem to me to be steep, and that’s without the berth supplement, which itself costs £100). I seem to remember that when the Sleeper was part of Scotrail, I could buy an advance from London to Kyle with a standard class berth from London to Inverness included in the ticket price. Maybe I’ve remembered this incorrectly. Perhaps CS ought to think about doing something like this.

Also- would I not need an anytime rather than an off peak walk up, because I’d be using the 08:55 Inverness to Kyle train (i.e. before 09:30), and also arriving in Inverness off the Sleeper at 08:40) or are those restrictions not important in this case?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also- would I not need an anytime rather than an off peak walk up, because I’d be using the 08:55 Inverness to Kyle train (i.e. before 09:30), and also arriving in Inverness off the Sleeper at 08:40) or are those restrictions not important in this case?

No, all restrictions on that ticket are based on departure from/arrival in London, and they specifically exempt the Sleeper from morning restrictions.