Caledonian Sleeper

[mmh]

Dumbarton is not the best of places for a coach transfer as there isn't a car park at all, although at that time the street outside will be pretty empty. It doesn't give much time for boarding though as the first services to Balloch and Helensburgh are not far behind it. Using platform 3 isn't an option either as it will be occupied as well. The waiting room/booking office are also on the other platform so not much use either.

In that position I doubt any passengers will be caring what facilities Dumbarton has. Some of them will be prematurely thankful they're finally getting on a train only to be massively disappointed, some of them will wonder why they couldn't have stayed on the coach.

All of them will be very annoyed.

 

[Mag_seven]

I sometimes used to be a bit naughty and switch them myself on evening trains

shhhh - so did I

 

[InOban]

They would be better putting them on to the train at Dalmuir, which does have a car park alongside the platform used by the WHL train. Of course the coach will have much more comfortable seats than the train, since no coach operator would be mad enough to fit hard seats.
BTW, the late morning train from FW, mentioned by an earlier poster, will run all winter from this year.

 

[Furrball]

Google Chrome & F12 makes this too easy!

 

[causton]

Anyone know why it took 8+ hours for a replacement loco to arrive. Did the driver have to walk out then taxi to said loco.

The driver of the replacement loco did did not have route knowledge up to where the failed train was, and the failed train was in the middle of nowhere so, (and this is genuinely what happened!) - the MOM went up on a Road-Rail Vehicle to the failed train, took the driver back to a road to drive them down to the replacement loco.

And then the replacement loco broke down and the first one started working.

All in all, 5/10!

 

[ainsworth74]

Anyone know why it took 8+ hours for a replacement loco to arrive. Did the driver have to walk out then taxi to said loco.

Well, it had to get from Polmadie to Helensburgh Upper at that point it had to wait for the driver of the sleeper to make their way to Helensburgh to collect it (as the driver from Polmadie didn't sign beyond there) which required a Network Rail MOM to bring a road-rail vehicle to collect them as the nearest access point to the failed train was some three miles away over moor land, then they had to drive the loco back to the sleeper and hook it all together and then, seemingly, the rescue locomotive itself was not in the best of health...

 

[causton]

Well, it had to get from Polmadie to Helensburgh Upper at that point it had to wait for the driver of the sleeper to make their way to Helensburgh to collect it (as the driver from Polmadie didn't sign beyond there) which required a Network Rail MOM to bring a road-rail vehicle to collect them as the nearest access point to the failed train was some three miles away over moor land, then they had to drive the loco back to the sleeper and hook it all together and then, seemingly, the rescue locomotive itself was not in the best of health...

Thanks for posting that at the same time, otherwise I feared nobody would believe us!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They would be better putting them on to the train at Dalmuir, which does have a car park alongside the platform used by the WHL train. Of course the coach will have much more comfortable seats than the train, since no coach operator would be mad enough to fit hard seats.
BTW, the late morning train from FW, mentioned by an earlier poster, will run all winter from this year.

Good stuff. Not having it was basically throwing away custom from the South East (I'm not sure you could even make Birmingham), and there's clearly the demand because the coach is often fully booked.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks for posting that at the same time, otherwise I feared nobody would believe us!

It's quite a tale isn't it! I've heard that the initial plan was for the driver to make their own way to Helensburgh. Considering the remoteness of the location and the distance involved I can only imagine that the drivers response to that plan would not have been considered suitable for pre-watershed broadcast

 

[causton]

Google Chrome & F12 makes this too easy!

This is fun!

 

[EE Andy b1]

Thanks for posting that at the same time, otherwise I feared nobody would believe us!

Today's railway and the farce with Caledonian Sleepers, i believe it!!

 

[Mathew S]

The driver of the replacement loco did did not have route knowledge up to where the failed train was, and the failed train was in the middle of nowhere so, (and this is genuinely what happened!) - the MOM went up on a Road-Rail Vehicle to the failed train, took the driver back to a road to drive them down to the replacement loco.

And then the replacement loco broke down and the first one started working.

All in all, 5/10!

Well, it had to get from Polmadie to Helensburgh Upper at that point it had to wait for the driver of the sleeper to make their way to Helensburgh to collect it (as the driver from Polmadie didn't sign beyond there) which required a Network Rail MOM to bring a road-rail vehicle to collect them as the nearest access point to the failed train was some three miles away over moor land, then they had to drive the loco back to the sleeper and hook it all together and then, seemingly, the rescue locomotive itself was not in the best of health...

Good lord. I mean, that's just a chain of circumstances that's about as unfortunate as you can get. If anything proves that the universe has a sense of humour...

 

[MrEd]

It's quite a tale isn't it! I've heard that the initial plan was for the driver to make their own way to Helensburgh. Considering the remoteness of the location and the distance involved I can only imagine that the drivers response to that plan would not have been considered suitable for pre-watershed broadcast

Must have been a horrendous shift for the poor driver, especially as he was probably trying his best to find the fault on the 73 for at least an hour. What actually happened to 73971, and at what point was it declared a failure? I’m wondering too whether the train still had ETS all the time that it was standing at Fersit?

 

[MrEd]

Thank you very much, MrEd, for that extremely helpful and informative reply. I will take from it that there is a reasonable degree of staff flexibility. Clearly if trains are running at 25% staffing, as noted by Crepello, above, there are going to be problems.

If they’re at 25% staffing, then there are only two hosts for six sleeping cars and there is definitely no-one to work a lounge car, as the two hosts will be way too busy with check-in. This would definitely explain the unavailability of lounge car service and breakfast on the short-staffed Inverness portion that night.

I don’t actually think that there is much staff flexibility; all crew bases are fully stretched at the moment and there certainly aren’t many spare staff. Train managers are obviously limited by route knowledge, but occasionally the Scottish-based hosts work different services from those originating at their home base, particularly if a base is short-staffed - the Inverness-based hosts can occasionally be called upon to work the Aberdeen and Fort William portions, and Fort William and Aberdeen hosts can occasionally be called upon to work the Inverness portion, for instance. London hosts always start and finish in London but are generally rostered to work to all five Scottish destinations, generally on a rotation.

 

[EE Andy b1]

If i was GBrf i would get a few more 73/9 re-builds done.

Biggest problem now is the rescue locomotive has to be dellner coupler fitted as Mk5 Sleepers are all dellner couplers.
Who came up with that great idea as these are not multiple units.

 

[Caleb2010]

They are, just unpowered ones! What's worrying is - as happened earlier this year when there was a breakdown on the HML the rescue loco was delayed as it needed to be fuelled first - could you imagine Tracy island receiving the call for thunderbird 2 and saying, sure we'll save the world, just got to fuel it first!!

 

[tsr]

Not accurate

As reported directly to me by the relevant Network Rail controllers...

Again, not accurate!

No idea where you're getting that from, but they didn't even have one member of platform staff to dispatch off Platform 10, thereby clogging up the Up Bay, Down Slow and (briefly) the Up Slow with displaced trains. So I'd say they did run out of dispatch staff, and Network Rail advise they were dealing with the problem on the Caledonian Sleeper, so...

 

[Maxfly]

37/4s handled load 6 with ease in the 80s and 90s (and providing ETS too). In the era of 37/0s, load 6 or even 7 + 74-ton ETHEL was not unheard of and they seemed to manage just fine. Obviously it depended how well-maintained the 37 was but I doubt that any drivers would have batted an eyelid at taking a single 37 (or even a 27) over the route with load 6 in the BR Blue era.

Interestingly, I have in my collection a repair book from 37114, when it was first reallocated from March to Eastfield to replace Class 27s on secondary passenger work in 1981. Many of these were initially in poor condition after years of hammer on the Eastern region, and did not seem a massive improvement over the 27s they replaced. A Mallaig driver famously wrote at the bottom of his entry (lamenting an inoperable boiler, draughty cabs, low power and continuous wheel slip) ’About time this wreck went to Doncaster for overhaul or scrap. Give us back our 27s, at least they work.’ Yet the 37s on the WHL grew to be a great success story...

Apologies, the 37 question was rhetorical, I didn’t make that very clear though. Thank you for a most interesting post, love to read things like that.

 

[marks87]

They are, just unpowered ones! What's worrying is - as happened earlier this year when there was a breakdown on the HML the rescue loco was delayed as it needed to be fuelled first - could you imagine Tracy island receiving the call for thunderbird 2 and saying, sure we'll save the world, just got to fuel it first!!

To be fair, CS don't actually have any thunderbirds in the conventional sense; not like the strategically-placed, ready-to-go-as-soon-as-possible 67s on the East Coast, and 57s on the West (which, incidentally, are the only two operators with dedicated "thunderbirds" so CS aren't unique).

 

[Maxfly]

To be fair, CS don't actually have any thunderbirds in the conventional sense; not like the strategically-placed, ready-to-go-as-soon-as-possible 67s on the East Coast, and 57s on the West (which, incidentally, are the only two operators with dedicated "thunderbirds" so CS aren't unique).

Of course, until the mk5 coaches land on the WHL, GBRF do have a 66 on hand at Fort William during the nights of sun, tues, thurs and sat that could help. Another sods law that it was a day the bulks had ran south in the morning.
I would guess the mk5 would maybe have an emergency coupler that would be used in future maybe? Anyone know at all?

 

[Scotrail84]

Of course, until the mk5 coaches land on the WHL, GBRF do have a 66 on hand at Fort William during the nights of sun, tues, thurs and sat that could help. Another sods law that it was a day the bulks had ran south in the morning.
I would guess the mk5 would maybe have an emergency coupler that would be used in future maybe? Anyone know at all?

There will be no other coupler fitted other than the current dellner making rescues impossible unless its a 73 or 92 to the rescue.

 

[Scotrail84]

As reported directly to me by the relevant Network Rail controllers...



No idea where you're getting that from, but they didn't even have one member of platform staff to dispatch off Platform 10, thereby clogging up the Up Bay, Down Slow and (briefly) the Up Slow with displaced trains. So I'd say they did run out of dispatch staff, and Network Rail advise they were dealing with the problem on the Caledonian Sleeper, so...

You've got your sources and I've got mine. Lets just leave it at that.

 

[Scotrail84]

If i was GBrf i would get a few more 73/9 re-builds done.

Biggest problem now is the rescue locomotive has to be dellner coupler fitted as Mk5 Sleepers are all dellner couplers.
Who came up with that great idea as these are not multiple units.

If I was GBRF I'd be converting the Colas 47s they bought if that is possible.

 

[Maxfly]

There will be no other coupler fitted other than the current dellner making rescues impossible unless its a 73 or 92 to the rescue.

Thanks for the reply, I think that’s a bit short sighted especially for failures on single line, but hey ho.

 

[Scotrail84]

Thanks for the reply, I think that’s a bit short sighted especially for failures on single line, but hey ho.

I agree, this will happen again at some point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are, just unpowered ones! What's worrying is - as happened earlier this year when there was a breakdown on the HML the rescue loco was delayed as it needed to be fuelled first - could you imagine Tracy island receiving the call for thunderbird 2 and saying, sure we'll save the world, just got to fuel it first!!

No, they aren’t. You are thinking of the TPE sets.

 

[Caleb2010]

Aren't they! My mistake, I thought that the sets were split in two, had a computer each etc, that being the reason only half the train slammed the brakes on a couple of weeks ago. Because they were basically fixed formations, unpowered sets (8TC's - without the 'C'!)

I should really read the forum properly in future

 

[HamworthyGoods]

There will be no other coupler fitted other than the current dellner making rescues impossible unless its a 73 or 92 to the rescue.

Rescues will be possible by other locos but will require an emergency adapter fitted to the loco. The train generally then has to run at a reduced speed, as it’s then no longer ‘through braked’ examples being when ECML 67s have rescued 365s.

Or as the 73s and 92s retain buckeyes you could use the ‘failed’ loco as a translator (you can set them up with dellner one end and buckeye the other)

Obviously it’s preferable to have a 73 or 92 rescue as they are fully compatible but that won’t always be possible. I presume 57/3s with Dellner couplings could rescue too?

 

[Butts]

The way things are going a "pacer" would be a better bet from Euston to Inverness.......you could then extend the trip to two "nights of luxury"

Sleeping bags on the floor - which is probably more comfortable than the seats provided in said bus on wheels.

 

[marks87]

Rescues will be possible by other locos but will require an emergency adapter fitted to the loco. The train generally then has to run at a reduced speed, as it’s then no longer ‘through braked’ examples being when ECML 67s have rescued 365s.

Or as the 73s and 92s retain buckeyes you could use the ‘failed’ loco as a translator (you can set them up with dellner one end and buckeye the other)

Presumably the drawhooks would be more useful for another loco to couple rather than the buckeye? (Do any 92s actually have a buckeye in fact? Converted or otherwise).

I was going to ask if the loco can act as a barrier in this way and still provide brake continuity. If so, then I guess that if (emphasis on both 'if') the 73s prove to be a problem but still retain the ability to provide head-end power, then using a 66 up front for traction (as they've done with the old stock in the past) might be the most cost-effective solution instead of converting more 73s.

Obviously it’s preferable to have a 73 or 92 rescue as they are fully compatible but that won’t always be possible. I presume 57/3s with Dellner couplings could rescue too?

I think it's been mentioned before that the Dellners on the Mk5s are at a different height to those on the 57/3s, so no.

It's a bit like the ridiculousness of Apollo 13 where they needed to literally fit a square peg in a round hole because they ran out of Carbon Dioxide filters on the lunar module (round) but had plenty for the command module (square).