Caledonian Sleeper

[w1bbl3]

I suppose the big question will be where do you put these lounges and how much is it going to cost?

Rent for space in those stations would not be cheap whilst there would also be additional staffing costs as you would need at least a couple of staff to run each lounge (Presumably one serving and one prepping drinks/food) although the check-in duties could possibly be passed onto the staff here rather than the crew which would solve some of the problems the crew are having to deal with.

Logistically it could end up costing them more that they make by some distance.

Also if this were a proper hotel and I was up to two hours late getting access to my room I'd probably be getting offered comp drinks/snacks whilst waiting in the bar area which would be additional cost. There has been reports of a CS manager standing tapping away at the PDQ with the company credit card at Upper Crust at Euston but this was in the early days of the new stock. If there were dedicated lounges there would be an expectation for a bit of "Customer service" to be happening in the event of delays. I'd go as far as to say it actually suits Serco to have passengers milling around Euston Concourse as it costs them less. I've heard of hotels at sports grounds comping full nights if there have been problems with accessing rooms after evening events

With the fares being charged and the well heeled being targeted it's only a matter of time until they are taken to task for the way they are handling the current problems.

And here in lies the problem Serco are charging premium and super premium prices for the offer when the service doesn't match up, at the current pricing levels there should IMHO be a lounge available at all the principle stations served open until boarding commences. They can only go on for so long with current problems before the passengers desert them, having a £400 "caledonian double" boarding a couple of hours late so loosing 1hr+ of sleep time really isn't a good way to achieve passenger satisfaction. As you point out traditional hotels would comp the room for that level of interruption or at the very least comp extras such a snacks, drink etc. Passengers for the doubles and club rooms are realistically making a choice between day train + hotel or flight + hotel vs CS.

 

[MrEd]

Yes Caledonian Sleeper is extremely poor these days.

When I tried to make a reservation with them last year, it was difficult to get them to do what I wanted them to do and they kept trying to fob me off with information I knew to be inaccurate.

On the train, the staff member was unhelpful, split our group up, and at best the way they interacted with "guests" (!) could be described as 'curt'. We were told off for boarding the train; apparently we should have waited on the platform for someone to escort us, rather than take our seats. Bizarre.

Their prices are insane; I'm now much less likely to take a leisure trip to places like Fort William and am now much more likely to go to mainland Europe.

They are an incredibly inefficient operator, whose costs must surely be inflated compared to the days of Scotrail operation.

Their claims about the quality of their service are about as far detached from the reality as you could possibly imagine!

When things go wrong, the compensation they offer to passengers is woefully inadequate and derisory.

I can't see them lasting much longer.

I would not go so far as to say that CS are poor these days. I still very greatly enjoy all my trips on the Highlander (my trip to Fort William in April was perhaps the most enjoyable one yet) and find that it's just as easy to book a berth as it was in First Group days (although that said, I only ever make the simplest kind of booking, i.e. a berth for one person on a fixed advance from Euston to Inverness/Fort William). I have also had full delay repay without question on many occasions, and have also twice enjoyed a private hire taxi from Inverness to Plockton/Kyle of Lochalsh at CS' expense after the late-running sleeper missed the Kyle connection (and the next Kyle train was not for another two hours or so). My over-riding impression is that as long as the old stock remains, nothing much has materially changed, which has made their fare increases since last year (even when they knew that the Mk5s would be months away on the Highlander) hard to justify. My experience with the Inverness and Fort William crews, many of whom have been working the train since Scotrail days (and probably, in some cases, even late BR days), has only ever been 100% positive; they're all extremely lovely, helpful people who genuinely enjoy their jobs despite all the pressure which they're under (although my limited experiences with crews from other bases, particularly London, have admittedly been mixed; I don't quite detect the same enthusiasm among e.g. the Aberdeen and London crew bases, but I got the same impression in First Group days). I think where CS (and perhaps the Scottish Government) have lost their way is in the marketing hype and fare increases; in my view, they should have waited until the Mk5s were operating successfully and reliably on all routes and had a product which they knew that they could deliver. At present, they do not have that; I feel that some discounted fares should have been appropriate as a way of maintaining customer loyalty in this transitional period (which they should have foreseen would not be entirely trouble-free). I also question whether the extremely expensive double rooms were a sensible use of space on the Mk5s (I fear that these will carry fresh air for much of the winter), but that is perhaps a debate for another day. Perhaps some very quiet midweek trains this winter might make Serco/the Scottish Government wake up and smell the coffee?

 

[Hadders]

Since Serco took over we've seen:

- Appalling reliability
- Huge increase in berth fees
- Removal of '& connections' Advance fares
- Refusal to accept All Line Rover tickets on the last day of validity
- Booking seat reservations for a 'day' journey between Fort William and Glasgow becoming all but impossible

 

[sleeper fan]

Since Serco took over we've seen:

- Appalling reliability
- Huge increase in berth fees
- Removal of '& connections' Advance fares
- Refusal to accept All Line Rover tickets on the last day of validity
- Booking seat reservations for a 'day' journey between Fort William and Glasgow becoming all but impossible

Im travelling on an All Line rover in June from Inverness. Its second to last day of validity-the train gets into London On the last day of validity. Are they going to make a fuss over this? The staff at the booking centre have said it will be fine as its still valid but will the on train staff kick up a fuss and if so what do I do? I've payed for my berth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Im travelling on an All Line rover in June from Inverness. Its second to last day of validity-the train gets into London On the last day of validity. Are they going to make a fuss over this? The staff at the booking centre have said it will be fine as its still valid but will the on train staff kick up a fuss and if so what do I do? I've payed for my berth.

It used to be the case that if the pass ran out on Friday you could travel overnight Friday onto Saturday, but you now can't. This is the issue which doesn't appear to affect you.

 

[Hadders]

Im travelling on an All Line rover in June from Inverness. Its second to last day of validity-the train gets into London On the last day of validity. Are they going to make a fuss over this? The staff at the booking centre have said it will be fine as its still valid but will the on train staff kick up a fuss and if so what do I do? I've payed for my berth.

That's fine. What you can't do is if your ALR expires on 10.06.19 catch the sleeper departing at 23:50 on 10.06.19. You used to be able to do this until Serco took over (and can still do this on the Night Riviera).

 

[sleeper fan]

It used to be the case that if the pass ran out on Friday you could travel overnight Friday onto Saturday, but you now can't. This is the issue which doesn't appear to affect you.

That's fine. What you can't do is if your ALR expires on 10.06.19 catch the sleeper departing at 23:50 on 10.06.19. You used to be able to do this until Serco took over (and can still do this on the Night Riviera).

Thank you both. Puts my mind at rest.

 

[47271]

I agree that the present state of affairs on the Lowlander is very unsatisfactory. But the Highlander runs every night exactly as reliably or unreliably as it's done for the past 20 years or so, and I challenge anyone to prove that the old trains are any more flaky now than they were in Scotrail days. I recall an outcry late in 2015 on this thread's predecessor predicting that Serco get sacked for the maintenance problems they had at the time, and then they got on top of it.

Some of us on here might not like the changes made since 2015, but others appreciate the better food and more considered hospitality generally. For every story of rubbish customer service at Euston there's one of epic efforts with passengers taxied through the night and trains held specially for that one person. Ask any ultra regular (and I know a few from the Highlander) and they'll say that things are generally better now than they were under Scotrail. Not massively better, just generally.

But that doesn't mean that if they don't get it right from now on in they're not heading for big trouble. I just don't think that we should mix a dislike of their management to date, for whatever reason, with doom laden predictions for the future. If they fail now it'll either be because the new trains don't settle for months or they've screwed up their long term strategy.

I'm 50/50 on it right now, and suspect that the deciding factor will be whether the Scottish tourist industry continues to boom - and to an extent year round - in the way that it does at present, and make no mistake that it's getting close to unsustainable levels in some parts of the country right now. That's something that Serco has no control over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other question may be around any possible new independence vote, and whether a new independent Scottish Government with no funding from England and no "by default" access to its rail network will be able to sustain it as a genuine international train, particularly given that I understand subsidy of international intercity type trains is a big EU no-no.

 

[haggishunter]

Since Serco took over we've seen:

- Huge increase in berth fees

Have we though? I’m travelling on the Highlander tonight booked 2 weeks out for a £140 solo occupancy of a berth. Which incidentally (and I looked this up out of curiosity) is £5 less than paid for the same in May 2005 booked at a similar timescale !

RPI inflation calculators suggest that translates to around £225 today.

 

[haggishunter]

The other question may be around any possible new independence vote, and whether a new independent Scottish Government with no funding from England and no "by default" access to its rail network will be able to sustain it as a genuine international train, particularly given that I understand subsidy of international intercity type trains is a big EU no-no.

If there’s an IndyRef and a Yes vote in the not to distant future that will most likely be because the sleepers were leaving the EU or at least the EEA when entering England !

 

[ashkeba]

There are plenty of restaurants and bars around the stations, a lounge couldn't compete. The station lounge is only valuable when boarding is unexpectedly delayed which has to be resolved eventually.

I wonder if they could do a deal with a few nearby restaurants and bars to keep them informed when boarding starts? The restaurants and bars get some advertising and custom, CS get fewer cold and grumpy customers - win-win?

 

[Caleb2010]

But then the bars and restaurants have to pass that information on, passengers are often a bit like sheep! If not told where to go, what time and to put one foot in front of the other when walking - are lost! Once these passengers are in the bars and restaurants it's yet another disjointed form of communication.

Assuming that there would be CS staff without a train to sort out, would two not be able to keep the virgin lounge running - by agreement with virgin of course and all logistics sorted. Then all passengers are in the same place, with the staff being treated to a little bit of the service they expect/pay for!

 

[trebor79]

That's a good idea. They could also do the meal service etc prior to departure. Who wants eat after midnight?

 

[sheff1]

I would not go so far as to say that CS are poor these days ...... I have also had full delay repay without question on many occasions, and have also twice enjoyed a private hire taxi from Inverness to Plockton/Kyle of Lochalsh at CS' expense after the late-running sleeper missed the Kyle connection

If on time arrival is not important to you then I can understand why you are content with full Delay Repay compensation (i.e. a free journey). To those for whom a (close to) punctual arrival is important then many delays of an hour plus would only mean that CS are "poor".

>>>>
When all the hype about the new trains appeared in the media my other half (who had never previously mentioned sleeper travel) decided that she would like to use this method of getting to/from Scotland. I suggested she wait until reports of the service appeared on tripadvisor and the like before making a final decision. Decision has now been made - we are not going to be using the sleeper.

 

[Sleepy]

That's fine. What you can't do is if your ALR expires on 10.06.19 catch the sleeper departing at 23:50 on 10.06.19. You used to be able to do this until Serco took over (and can still do this on the Night Riviera).

This has been clarified by Atoc/RDG recently (source : Barry Doe) - you can only use the Night Riviera for last day validity when travel is completed by 0429 next day, eg. Using 2145 from Penzance you would need to alight by Reading.

 

[Chris999999]

>>>>
When all the hype about the new trains appeared in the media my other half (who had never previously mentioned sleeper travel) decided that she would like to use this method of getting to/from Scotland. I suggested she wait until reports of the service appeared on tripadvisor and the like before making a final decision. Decision has now been made - we are not going to be using the sleeper.

I have serious problems and doubts about using Tripadvisor as the decision maker on whether to use or avoid any establishment or service.

 

[Butts]

I have serious problems and doubts about using Tripadvisor as the decision maker on whether to use or avoid any establishment or service.

Normally I would be inclined to agree with you. However the accounts on here are as damning as any anecdotal evidence to be found on Trip Advisor.

 

[Essexman]

The price of the Flexipass will be the deciding factor as to whether I make maybe one return trip a year or five. If I think it remains good value I'll buy one and Serco will get my £1550 or so. If not I'll probably make one longer work trip each year and do any others I have to by day train. In that case Serco will get less money from me (and often I travel on quiet out of season trains) and the Scottish economy will lose some of my spending on hotels & restaurants, plus I'll be less keen to do try to business with Scottish companies.

 

[TimboM]

I get shouted down when I try to say this, but the accounts really weren't as bad as people think they were, and wouldn't lead in themselves to a strong suggestion that Serco would want to give up. It wasn't that they lost that amount of money in the period of those accounts, the horrible number arose from an adjustment in respect of future years.

They are bad... if you look at Note 16 in the March 2018 accounts it shows that the Onerous Contract Provision carried forward of £39.6m at that date was split £22.6m "current liabilities" (i.e. within the next year) and £17.0m >1 year. In other words, at that point they were anticipating a £22.6m operating loss in the year to 31 March 2019.

The provision is indeed for all future years remaining on the franchise, but as noted previously Transport Scotland pick up 50% of the franchise losses April 2020-2022 and then effectively all of them thereafter, so the large number you see in the accounts is mostly in respect of the next couple of years (as backed up by the split in the notes).

What's more, if you look at the amounts booked to the onerous contract provision they are as follows:

Period to Sept 15: £23.3m
Period to Sept 16: £4.8m
Period to Dec 17: £49.0m

...in other words that's losses of £77.1m Serco have incurred or are expecting over the full franchise period, or about £5m per year. (The provision was £39.6m at 31 March 2018 because £37.5m has already been utilised to offset losses up to that point.)

Bearing in mind there's been further delays to bringing in the new stock and all the challenges noted with the Mk5s, I expect the March 2019 accounts when published in due course will show an even bigger loss for the current year and potentially an increase to the provision.

 

[MrEd]

If on time arrival is not important to you then I can understand why you are content with full Delay Repay compensation (i.e. a free journey). To those for whom a (close to) punctual arrival is important then many delays of an hour plus would only mean that CS are "poor".

Of course, all rail passengers want to reach their destination on time; that goes without saying. But on many of the occasions on which I (personally) have been delayed 30 minutes or more on CS, the delay has not actually been CS' fault. Others may have different experiences, but I think we need to be very careful to distinguish which delays are actually CS' fault. Here are my experiences of delays on CS:

January 2016: northbound Inverness sleeper arrived 40L after over-running engineering work on an East Coast diversion. Received 50% compensation and a taxi to Kyle of Lochalsh at CS' expense, which got me there quicker than the 08:55 Scotrail service!
September 2016: southbound Highlander arrived London 120L after landslip near Milton Keynes. Full delay repay and ticket for onward connection endorsed.
October 2016: northbound Fort William sleeper arrived 80L due to over-running engineering work on booked route between Edinburgh and Glasgow, followed by poor railhead conditions in the Glasgow area. Full delay repay.
August 2017: northbound Inverness sleeper arrived 110L after security alert at Euston the previous night (Highlander left Euston 138L; many passengers travelling with VTWC to Birmingham, Manchester etc did not get home that night). Full delay repay and taxi to Plockton at CS' expense.
April 2018: northbound Inverness sleeper arrived Perth 90L at 07:10, where it was terminated after the hired-in DBC Class 67 (which had been on the blink and losing time since Edinburgh) decided it had had enough Allowed to travel to Inverness on 08:10 service, which connected with 10:56 Kyle train. Full delay repay (with tickets endorsed for onward travel).
October 2018: northbound Fort William sleeper arrived 37L due to waiting for delayed southbound Scotrail service at Rannoch, which had been delayed by a points failure at Tulloch in severe sub-zero temperatures (yes, it was -6 on 27th October- that's global warming for you). 50% compensation.
October 2018: southbound Highlander arrived London 40L after Inverness portion diverted via Aberdeen (due to points failure at Blair Atholl on HML, probably again due to severe icy conditions). 50% compensation.
November 2018: southbound Highlander arrived London 40L after signalling problems in Carlisle area. 50% compensation.

I think the conclusion we can draw from this is that while I've received delay repay from CS on numerous occasions, only on perhaps one (when the Class 67 failed, although that is debatable) was the delay actually CS' fault. On other occasions, CS seemed to me to do a good job to handle severe delays caused by over-running engineering work, security alerts, freezing weather, signalling problems etc. which were clearly not of their making, and which affect all long-distance services in the country from time to time. OK, one side of me was cross that the sleeper arrived late in all these instances, but at the end of the day, CS did all they could in what was simply an unfortunate situation.

 

[_toommm_]

1C11 (23:40 Edinburgh portion) yet to depart, so it looks like the Glasgow portion may be waiting for a while at Carstairs...

 

[TimboM]

1C11 (23:40 Edinburgh portion) yet to depart, so it looks like the Glasgow portion may be waiting for a while at Carstairs...

1Z99 (Thunderbird) has just passed through Carstairs heading towards Edinburgh.
My money would be on 92033 (ex-Glasgow ECS) going to relieve 92020.

0Z92 VSTP in to move 020 (presumably) from Edinburgh to Mossend Yard once 1C11 has got underway.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Rent for space in those stations would not be cheap whilst there would also be additional staffing costs as you would need at least a couple of staff to run each lounge (Presumably one serving and one prepping drinks/food) although the check-in duties could possibly be passed onto the staff here rather than the crew which would solve some of the problems the crew are having to deal with.

There is in fact a Virgin First Class lounge that could, in theory, be used as a Sleeper lounge in case of need, though I imagine that the station hotel would be preferable. Not least because the lounge is so well hidden at the back of the booking office that most passengers wouldn't easily find it. The old bar over M&S/Boots would be an ideal place for a lounge, similar to that at Euston, but presumably the rent would be much higher as a retail/catering unit. If only it hadn't been lying empty for years on end.

 

[philthetube]

Good and fair analysis I think.

I recall bumping into a chap employed by First when they took over the franchise (so I guess c2005) as a consultant and he was working for them on ideas to improve the sleeper - presumably over the 1st franchisee Nat Express, given that new stock etc was not going to be part of the plan. I think they did a full refresh+ (refurb?) of the interiors - new carpets, cabin decor, bedding etc - but obv not beyond that as has happened to Night Riviera more recently, after that and also I think did stuff to offer better food and drink menu in the bar cars. Some of this has since gone with serco - unless seasonal - eg used to have extra blanket in cabin if needed (I suppose no need now the air con in my Mk3 did not go to cold!) and also toiletary pack with toothbrush, toothpaste etc that I note CS no longer provides (edit - only provides in 1st class as a matter of course) - v small matters of course. It did seem like 1st delivered some definite improvements when they started but perhaps like all other franchisees as time goes on do not fully keep up the standards that they started with?

I don't recall them not being marketed in the early days of First - tho it may be that the marketing was only limited to posters around scottish stations run by First, which I guess would not grow the market much - so not the wider marketing plan CS have embarked on in the media, or perhaps not marketed so much by First in England.

One thing they are getting right, how many people are going to spend one day in London and the next in Inverness and not carry a toothbrush, this will save on disposable plastics.

A notice saying this andt that they were available if requested would do the job and save serco money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing they are getting right, how many people are going to spend one day in London and the next in Inverness and not carry a toothbrush, this will save on disposable plastics.

A notice saying this andt that they were available if requested would do the job and save serco money.

Even sell them. You can then sell proper ones (as if you've forgotten it you probably want it for a few days at least) rather than throwaway poor quality plastics.

 

[WesternLancer]

One thing they are getting right, how many people are going to spend one day in London and the next in Inverness and not carry a toothbrush, this will save on disposable plastics.

A notice saying this and that they were available if requested would do the job and save serco money.

I do agree actually, and apparently (I read this after I got off, on their website I think) if you ask for a toothbrush a steward has them to offer, they say).

 

[Chrism20]

Article on Business Traveller today regarding the new stock and some of the issues currently occurring. Reference also made to the crew struggling to cope in the lounge car and the potential industrial action.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/b...g-issues-on-new-caledonian-sleeper-carriages/

I'm having problems getting to quote from my phone, however the entire article is below, will try and fix on desktop later.

It was launched with fanfare six weeks ago between London Euston, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

But since then, reports have emerged that passengers have encountered teething issues when travelling on the new Caledonian Sleeper, which features standards never before seen in this country.

Judging by reports I have received in recent days, the teething problems are not yet sorted.

These range from understaffing in the bar car to a lack of water or poor water pressure in the compartments.

There have been complaints about the train arriving into the station from the depot. This was probably because staff were working hard to fix the faults before the train entered service. But mainline stations are not ideal places to wait late at night, so one can understand passengers’ feelings.

One Dutch passenger (and the company wants to attract international travellers) told me today: “There was no water in multiple cars and you could not use the ensuite shower and toilet.

“But the train staff were friendly and helpful. On arrival in Glasgow I was given a token to use the shower and promised a 50 per cent refund. I recognised that the bar car was understaffed. I found the console lighting too bright and the bed too narrow.”

Another passenger said it seemed “staff were used to the old way of doing things,” but added that “it’s clear from the compartment fixtures and fittings they did not try to do things on the cheap.”

Staffing seems to be an issue. Said one customer, “service in the bar car is too slow. It was alright when it was just us [two people] and one family member. But as soon as it filled up service was ridiculous.

“It took 25 minutes to get attention and when we did we just wanted to pay and go to bed. Other customers just left without ordering. Not the guy’s fault – it’s understaffed.

“Caledonian Sleeper markets a hotel on wheels but right now it’s Fawlty Towers.”

It may depend on where one’s compartment is located (in the middle of the carriage or over the bogies), but there have also been complaints about the ride quality.

“Overall the room is great, a huge improvement [on the 40-year-old carriages], but the ride quality is not. It jars over every set of points which the Mk3 [the old stock] did not,” one passenger told me.

Note that these teething problems apply only to the new rolling stock. I am sure many if not most customers are perfectly satisfied.

According to The Scotsman there could be further problems ahead for both Serco (the train’s operator) and the train’s customers.

Staff are to be balloted on strike action because of their working conditions on the new trains.

RMT’s regional organiser Gordon Martin told The Scotsman: “The introduction of the new rolling stock has caused a lot of stress among the workforce.”

The Scotsman reports that “management were trying to introduce new working practices on the new trains which were causing stress and affecting the mental health of staff.”

Assuming the ballot does go ahead it will take several weeks to complete. And then the union would have to give one week’s notice of any strike action.

Business Traveller has contacted Caledonian Sleeper for comment and we await its reply.

 

[TimboM]

A lot of those quotes have been taken from posts on forums and Facebook. Excellent journalism.

 

[theshillito]

A lot of those quotes have been taken from posts on forums and Facebook. Excellent journalism.

I'm pretty sure some of them are off here even