Caledonian Sleeper

[Butts]

So the $64,000 question - is the Caledonian Sleeper a White Elephant ?

Could it be that it ends up a "Vanity Project" morphing into an expensive "Tourist Trap" for the uninformed ?

Would people rather still be paying £49 for First's 1st Class bargain berths in a clapped out but at least reasonably priced alternative to the far quicker "Air Alternative"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would people rather still be paying £49 for First's 1st Class bargain berths in a clapped out but at least reasonably priced alternative to the far quicker "Air Alternative"?

The Mk3s were and are in a poor state, and the Mk2s even more so. I suppose they could have converted some Mk3 TSOs to brake vehicles and used those, but they'd have to drop a sleeper coach off each train to fit the longer vehicles in. So something had to give - new stock, a very heavy refurb (Night Riviera style) or closure.

I do think the lack of "pods" or couchettes is an absolute killer, and these would have been that middle ground. If anything, if it was a choice between seats and couchettes, couchettes would have been better. An extra TSO could always have been ordered to cover the Fort Bill day passengers.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not sure 22m Mk5s with high entrances and no steps are much use for a low-platform country, to be honest. Anything they order will be based on a 26m UIC coach.

They took on the ex-Nightstar rolling stock!

 

[ainsworth74]

The Mk3s were and are in a poor state, and the Mk2s even more so.

The Caledonian Sleeper Mk3s are in a poor state. The Night Riveria's Mk3s were in much better condition even five or six years ago and have since had an excellent refurbishment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They took on the ex-Nightstar rolling stock!

The Canadians did, not the Swiss.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Caledonian Sleeper Mk3s are in a poor state. The Night Riveria's Mk3s were in much better condition even five or six years ago and have since had an excellent refurbishment.

Indeed so. I've only used the seats, but ignoring the controversy about them being 2+2 (though I was able to contort myself into a comfortable-ish sleeping position better in a pair of 2+2 seats than I can in a single seat, and in my understanding it's never full out of Paddington so everyone can have a pair of seats if they wish) the refurb is of a very high quality indeed, probably the best Mk3 job I've seen of all. If the sleepers are as well-done they will basically be as new.

 

[ainsworth74]

If the sleepers are as well-done they will basically be as new.

They have been and they are as far as I can tell.

 

[sleeper fan]

Butts I agree with you fully with you. The new stock prices are ridiculous. Travelled in first class last July to Fort William for just under £110 good value I thought not you are talking double that just for a standard double!. Am up in Inverness on June 28th and looked at the sleeper and saw the price(when the new stock was advertised) for two of us it was going to cost nearly £500 could stay, have breakfast and do a LNER first class upgrade to London for far less but then when they dropped the price because of the Mk5's delay I cancel the hotel and booked tow singles on the sleeper as they were at a reasonable price. £160 for two standards...still pricy but not bad I suppose in comparison to the new stock. Unfortunately I must say that if CS keep the Mk5 prices up too long they will be running near empty trains. Who wants to pay £200+ for a single cabin standard class...I love the sleeper but not at the new stocks price...glad to get one more old stock run despite there age they are nice and retro!

 

[ashkeba]

However, I won’t continue to be a CS customer (despite liking and preferring rail travel) if the following reported faults are ongoing - late departures, inability to get a meal in the lounge for whatever reason, non-working shower or toilet, etc, all of which reduce the reason for using the service.

I don't mind late departures much, as long as the station lounges are good enough, I'm kept informed and there's still somewhere to get food and drink. Failed toilets and late arrivals which are much harder to cope with.

 

[JModulo]

To that end, are staff from the manufacturer and the subcontractors who supplied things like the toilets and showers currently working on the stock at their own cost at Wembley and other depots?

Yes, there is contractors/fitters working on the stock during the day in between services which is what has caused the delay(s) to the inbound stock arriving from the depot on several occasions.

 

[WesternLancer]

Very frequent bus links from Loughborough station to East Midlands Airport

But a slow journey....Long Eaton Station better connected to the airport - but it's off topic. The point was to illustrate the issue of course.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm not sure 22m Mk5s with high entrances and no steps are much use for a low-platform country, to be honest. Anything they order will be based on a 26m UIC coach.

It was of course a joke....

 

[TimboM]

Thats back in service now.

It was still missing Mon night on 1S26/1B26 - so was 15315 added back in for last night's northbounds?

 

[TimboM]

Serco, to a large extent driven by the Scottish Government's vision, may have a long term problem.
Unless they get this right soon, it appears that they've aimed (and priced tickets accordingly) for the luxury travel 'experience' market and can't (yet?) deliver. In doing so they've priced out many regular commuters who just wanted to maximise quality of life by travelling whilst they slept.
The legacy of poor online reviews (see TripAdvisor) left by disappointed customers could seriously affect the business moving forward.

Transport Scotland cover 50% of franchise losses from April 2020-April 2022 then effectively all of them thereafter, so any "long term" problem won't really be Serco's.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Could it be that it ends up a "Vanity Project"
Would people rather still be paying £49 for First's 1st Class bargain berths in a clapped out but at least reasonably priced alternative to the far quicker "Air Alternative"?

Yes. Largely because there often isn't a reasonably priced air alternative in the evening (there may be some unreasonably priced ones). In particular there is no evening air option from the Midlands or Northern England.

 

[47271]

From what I hear the Lowlander is loading very well at the moment and with a very different clientele to before, my contact is reporting new groups of American, Japanese, Chinese and Korean tourists with enormous suitcases and photographing one another all over the train, completely absent until this year. Serco's doing something right. But it is the summer.

I'm no more convinced of Serco's business model than most on this thread but you can't blame them for their current approach if that's their strategy in the very early days of mk5 operation: high prices and an aggressive marketing strategy into key foreign markets.

The dog days of winter will be the test. Are they going to allow the trains to run near empty through an insistence on £200+ pricing, or are they going to meet the market? I have no idea what they're thinking on this but if I were them I would be trying to get away with the high prices until I'd learned that I couldn't. They'll soon know.

They also need to be sensible on how they handle Flexipass customers who are their bread and butter in the winter. That product currently sits at £155 per single journey with an 'introductory upgrade' to Club. That's pretty good value to buyers who are in the £200 per night London hotel category, so long as the train functions properly obviously, but if they let it float upwards much beyond £170 then that'll take them into the danger territory.

We'll see...

 

[gingerheid]

I suspect we know how this ends; it's exactly the same marketing strategy as BR had with the Mk3s (even down to claims like the smooth ride!).

They wait for the hype to die down and then go back to normal?

 

[Scotrail84]

It was still missing Mon night on 1S26/1B26 - so was 15315 added back in for last night's northbounds?

Yes I believe so.

 

[47271]

I suspect we know how this ends; it's exactly the same marketing strategy as BR had with the Mk3s (even down to claims like the smooth ride!).

They wait for the hype to die down and then go back to normal?

I think you're probably right, but all told it is a vastly superior experience on what's gone before. Not having to trot down the corridor for a wee at 3am has got to be worth £20 more.

Not so sure on the smooth ride sadly. There's an awful lot of clatter from the bogies I believe (what is that, it's been described to me like a bag of enormous spanners under the floor, and I know what he means from experience of daytime trains?) and that isn't something that you get on mk3s unless they're knackered. Neither does the suspension deal particularly well with vertical movement. 'As quiet and smooth as a 385' is how it's been put. Hmm.

 

[JModulo]

From what I hear the Lowlander is loading very well at the moment.

Well yes, so the website would have you believe, however its running with a lot of rooms empty as spare 'just in case' the booked rooms aren't available due to issues. Hence why its quite difficult to book on the Lowlander just now.

 

[47271]

Well yes, so the website would have you believe, however its running with a lot of rooms empty as spare 'just in case' the booked rooms aren't available due to issues. Hence why its quite difficult to book on the Lowlander just now.

To be fair I'm going by what passengers are telling me, the train is obviously busy, although I'm not denying that they're probably holding off cabins as well.

 

[Highlandspring]

There's an interesting passing mention in the book "British Rail Mark 1 Coaches" by Keith Parkin that there was an eyewatering fares hike when the mk1 sleepers were first introduced on account of the more luxurious accomodation. Plus ça change I suppose...

 

[WesternLancer]

There's an interesting passing mention in the book "British Rail Mark 1 Coaches" by Keith Parkin that there was an eyewatering fares hike when the mk1 sleepers were first introduced on account of the more luxurious accomodation. Plus ça change I suppose...

well they were en suite as we know...... (chamber pots....)

 

[Bassman]

There is a significant change in tourism world wide. It is not unusual to have significant numbers of tourists looking for different experiences from many parts of the world, and these will use the sleeper as a high interest experience. As Airbnb hosts in Inverness, in the last two years, I amazed that independent travellers with means are coming from all over the world, and from places we would not expect i.e. from south America, eastern Europe and the middle and far east. The season is also lengthening from February to October along with Christmas. Serco certainly will capture this tourist market.

However as has been said, the sleeper originally and still should be a strategic transport link with the North and London ( In the absence of UK length High Speed Trains as in Japan and China, which clearly remove the need for slow overnight transport.)
As has been discussed on another link here the Sleeper and overnight trains are GREENER than any flight. A strategic national intention would be to reduce carbon footprint and alter taxation, subsidy and pricing to reflect reduced emissions and maximise the use and modernisation of our rail network.

 

[Kendalian]

Lowlander stock has only just arrived at Euston an hour late according to RTT.
So late boarding yet again, but fingers crossed away on time at 2350!

 

[JModulo]

Lowlander stock has only just arrived at Euston an hour late according to RTT.
So late boarding yet again, but fingers crossed away on time at 2350!

Are you surprised? .....

 

[Kendalian]

Are you surprised? .....

Sadly no, it's a reoccurring trend...no wonder CS put the boarding time back from 2200 to 2230

 

[Chrism20]

From what I hear the Lowlander is loading very well at the moment and with a very different clientele to before, my contact is reporting new groups of American, Japanese, Chinese and Korean tourists with enormous suitcases and photographing one another all over the train, completely absent until this year. Serco's doing something right. But it is the summer.

I'm no more convinced of Serco's business model than most on this thread but you can't blame them for their current approach if that's their strategy in the very early days of mk5 operation: high prices and an aggressive marketing strategy into key foreign markets.

Tourism to Scotland is fast becoming a year round thing nowadays so no doubt they will be hoping for some of that to spill over into the winter.

One of the things that worries me about this strategy though is what happens if the pound starts to rise. At the moment for us to convert the rates are trash, however its the opposite for incoming tourists who are getting more £ for their dollar/yen etc.

 

[TimboM]

Lowlander stock has only just arrived at Euston an hour late according to RTT.
So late boarding yet again, but fingers crossed away on time at 2350!

The Highlander stock (5S95) was almost an hour late in - usual diagram is for the same driver to go back and bring in the Lowlander stock (5S96), so that'll be the most likely reason it was an hour late too... probably nothing to do with the Mk5s for a change.

92043 bringing the stock in with 92014 on rear for 1S26.

 

[urpert]

Tonight we’re still waiting and according to RTT it hasn’t left Wembley yet.