Caledonian Sleeper

[Hooligan]

Does anyone know if when the MK5s are put on the highland will the Inverness portion be allocated 2 x 73's to reliably get it up the hills or should one suffice

its meant to be a pair of 73's for Inverness portion

 

[mm333]

It's such a shame that there's no way alighting somewhere in north London when running to Euston via the ECML. Sunday's southbound Highlander was timetabled to take 1h 50 to get from Finsbury Park to Euston, including 40 minutes sat at Wembley depot. I'm guessing no spare platforms at Kings Cross at 9am.

 

[alistairlees]

It's such a shame that there's no way alighting somewhere in north London when running to Euston via the ECML. Sunday's southbound Highlander was timetabled to take 1h 50 to get from Finsbury Park to Euston, including 40 minutes sat at Wembley depot. I'm guessing no spare platforms at Kings Cross at 9am.

No platforms that can take 16 coaches + 2 locos at Kings Cross is the main reason.

 

[theironroad]

It's such a shame that there's no way alighting somewhere in north London when running to Euston via the ECML. Sunday's southbound Highlander was timetabled to take 1h 50 to get from Finsbury Park to Euston, including 40 minutes sat at Wembley depot. I'm guessing no spare platforms at Kings Cross at 9am.

Good point. While I guess Finsbury doesn't accept the sleeper train length, can't see why it couldn't be a booked stop with the guard allowing local door access for those wantibg to bail before Euston.

 

[jagardner1984]

It's an interesting question actually, ignoring current routes, on any main line, what stations do have platforms can take a full 16 car sleeper. In regular service:

Edinburgh Waverley
Carstairs
Carlisle
Preston
Crewe
Watford Junction
Newcastle
Doncaster

Any others ?

 

[Mag_seven]

Good point. While I guess Finsbury doesn't accept the sleeper train length, can't see why it couldn't be a booked stop with the guard allowing local door access for those wantibg to bail before Euston.

They (CS) would need to come to an agreement with the station operator "Great Northern" as to how the train would be dispatched and then there is the question of CS ticket acceptance on the Victoria line to Euston or on National Rail to Kings Cross.

 

[theironroad]

They (CS) would need to come to an agreement with the station operator "Great Northern" as to how the train would be dispatched and then there is the question of CS ticket acceptance on the Victoria line to Euston or on National Rail to Kings Cross.

I'd !Ike to think both of these issues wouldn't be deal breaking , especially if it was one local door only as no general door releae .

Tbh, as arrival time is generally still early, (departure earlier too) , I'm not sure how great the demand would be, guess I'd be happy to stay sleeping longer.....but would be a good option to have.

 

[alistairlees]

It's an interesting question actually, ignoring current routes, on any main line, what stations do have platforms can take a full 16 car sleeper. In regular service:

Edinburgh Waverley
Carstairs
Carlisle
Preston
Crewe
Watford Junction
Newcastle
Doncaster

Any others ?

Well, Carstairs and Watford Junction definitely can't

 

[bb21]

A dedicated thread discussing the green credentials of sleeper stock is here and all relevant posts have been moved there, as it is a worthy topic warranting its own dedicated thread.

 

[JonathanH]

Good point. While I guess Finsbury doesn't accept the sleeper train length, can't see why it couldn't be a booked stop with the guard allowing local door access for those wantibg to bail before Euston.

There is no way that it would be able to stop there long enough to ensure people had got off.

If you look at the timings, the Lowland sleeper gets to Euston at its usual advertised time (0707) when it is diverted via the East Coast. (Of course it can often be earlier via the West Coast if the Weedon route is open.) The Highland sleeper is later (0905 vs 0747) but goes through Finsbury Park at 0713 just as the service is ramping up. How do you decide when to actually allow people off at Finsbury Park when the train is late (and potentially being followed by a non-stop service)? If it is late, something behind will be being delayed as the other trains go faster than 87 mph from Digswell to Kings Cross and will have caught it up.

They (CS) would need to come to an agreement with the station operator "Great Northern" as to how the train would be dispatched and then there is the question of CS ticket acceptance on the Victoria line to Euston or on National Rail to Kings Cross.

There would be no need for ticket acceptance. It would just be an option for passengers to get off there and make their own arrangements to get into London. If they want to avoid paying for it, stay on to Euston.

I suspect that the practical issue is moving people through the train to the local door. Moreover, it would potentially fall foul of disability legislation (although I don't see how this isn't already the case for anyone going from Watford Junction to Edinburgh in the seats).

The killer though is platform occupation time. The Lowland sleeper stops at Watford Junction at a time when it can quite happily occupy the platform for a few minutes to allow people to get off. It doesn't appear that either sleeper can do this at Finsbury Park and not cause a problem with other trains.

 

[BRX]

Tbh, as arrival time is generally still early, (departure earlier too) , I'm not sure how great the demand would be, guess I'd be happy to stay sleeping longer.....but would be a good option to have.

I certainly saw some comments on twitter/facebook/somewhere from angry passengers on sunday night's delayed service frustrated by the fact that they could see they were basically in London (and their meetings/whatever already starting) but were having to go on a slow motion tour of N london including sitting in the sidings at Wembley for some time.

 

[Please Explain]

The regulations concerning this are called HIDDEN -(I think, introduced by a Lord? Hidden circa '89??).

 

[Highlandspring]

The regulations concerning this are called HIDDEN -(I think, introduced by a Lord? Hidden circa '89??).

Sir Anthony Hidden QC made a number of recommendations as a result of his public enquiry into the Clapham crash of 1988, recommendation 18 simply stated “BR shall ensure that overtime is monitored so that no individual is working excessive levels of overtime”. The restrictions you outline have never been enshrined in law, working hours and fatigue management are left to the discretion of each individual Railway Undertaking under the Railway And Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006.

 

[BRX]

On a point of pedantry, saying that safety must always come first doesn't really make any sense as on that basis, you simply would not run any trains. The reality is that there always has to be a balance between safety and everything else.

 

[33Hz]

I certainly saw some comments on twitter/facebook/somewhere from angry passengers on sunday night's delayed service frustrated by the fact that they could see they were basically in London (and their meetings/whatever already starting) but were having to go on a slow motion tour of N london including sitting in the sidings at Wembley for some time.

Here? https://twitter.com/MacqueenHector/status/1122899689853079552?s=19

 

[marks87]

It's an interesting question actually, ignoring current routes, on any main line, what stations do have platforms can take a full 16 car sleeper. In regular service:

Edinburgh Waverley
Carstairs
Carlisle
Preston
Crewe
Watford Junction
Newcastle
Doncaster

Any others ?

York?

 

[alistairlees]

York?

There's a few threads on the longest platform in GB, which will be of interest, already, such as this one: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trivia-what-is-longest-platform-in-the-uk.158175/
Other ones to add to the question are London Euston (obviously), Darlington, Cambridge, Gloucester and no doubt a few more.

 

[Please Explain]

Sorry, but I really beg to differ. We were told in training that safety must come first no matter what and for good reason. A train may be delayed X no of minutes or whatever, but I would rather it left safely or not at all.
Things like train prep, despatch, degraded working methods, shunting, handovers, booking on/off, communications, reaching clear understanding with one and other are all vital to safe operation and crews need to have had adequate rest and be 100% before taking up duty to ensure all of this happens smoothly.
When it doesn't, the consequences can be fatal.

 

[williamn]

the new trains look great, though I will miss the old droplight windows! One thing that just seems silly given that they work such scenic routes are the decals that cover some of the windows.

 

[cb a1]

0016. Nearly at the front of the queue to board at Euston for GLC. From outside train looks great!

 

[BRX]

Sorry, but I really beg to differ. We were told in training that safety must come first no matter what and for good reason. A train may be delayed X no of minutes or whatever, but I would rather it left safely or not at all.
Things like train prep, despatch, degraded working methods, shunting, handovers, booking on/off, communications, reaching clear understanding with one and other are all vital to safe operation and crews need to have had adequate rest and be 100% before taking up duty to ensure all of this happens smoothly.
When it doesn't, the consequences can be fatal.

There's no such thing as completely safe. Adequate rest can't be defined objectively and people are never '100%' - that doesn't have a real meaning.

I'm not arguing against the principle of safety being highly important, or the various protocols that are there to manage it. But saying that it comes first no matter what ... that's simply not possible, if you want any trains to move.

 

[modernrail]

0016. Nearly at the front of the queue to board at Euston for GLC. From outside train looks great!

0016?? I thought you could board from 10pm now and the train is meant to leave at 23.45 ish? I will be mighty annoyed if my booking to Glasgow tonight at significant cost leaves me hanging around at Euston for 2 hours and with quite a bit less sleep than I am anticipating. Excited as I am by the new trains I actually have a pretty important meeting starting at 8am in Glasgow tomorrow.

I really hope the sleeper hasn't started making a load of promises it can't in reality keep with earlier boarding times etc.

 

[cb a1]

0016?? I thought you could board from 10pm now and the train is meant to leave at 23.45 ish? I will be mighty annoyed if my booking to Glasgow tonight at significant cost leaves me hanging around at Euston for 2 hours and with quite a bit less sleep than I am anticipating. Excited as I am by the new trains I actually have a pretty important meeting starting at 8am in Glasgow tomorrow.

I really hope the sleeper hasn't started making a load of promises it can't in reality keep with earlier boarding times etc.

Don't know why it was so late boarding.
Currently due into Glasgow at 0754. 39 mins late, thought it might make up time at Carstairs split but from a very selfish personal perspective I'm glad we didn't: my important meeting was in London last night and don't mind when I get to Glasgow and am delighted that I get half my fare back (especially as I didn't pay for the fare either).

 

[JonathanH]

The relatively new check in process which involves queuing for a single point of check in for each half set needs to be revised on nights when there is disruption as it can add to the delays.

If the train is late arriving, the check in process doesn't seem to start until everything is ready for departure - with automatic doors, it could start before the train is ready to board and people could wait outside the train on the platform for the doors to open. It can take up to 20 minutes for everyone to be checked in.

Something better is needed - maybe allowing check in at any time and being given a 'boarding pass' would work.

 

[modernrail]

Don't know why it was so late boarding.
Currently due into Glasgow at 0754. 39 mins late, thought it might make up time at Carstairs split but from a very selfish personal perspective I'm glad we didn't: my important meeting was in London last night and don't mind when I get to Glasgow and am delighted that I get half my fare back (especially as I didn't pay for the fare either).

Haha I do wonder how many people go through the same thought process on the sleeper. I once had a lovely breakfast in the lounge car in the highlands knowing the clock had just struck full refund.

As a tangent, and apologies, has anybody else noticed that some of the booking sites (Virgin West Coast) seem to have removed the option of a return and are only offering singles? The total price does not seem to be more but is this not a blatant attempt to minimise delay repay claims as they would only refund against the single for longer delays? Also, there are other reasons in the conditions of carriage why I might want the return.

 

[Highlandspring]

Don't know why it was so late boarding.
Currently due into Glasgow at 0754. 39 mins late, thought it might make up time at Carstairs split but from a very selfish personal perspective I'm glad we didn't

That’s two nights in a row that 1S26 has been delayed departing London due to various coach faults then encountered significant delay at Carstairs due to ‘problems’ with the split. It’s all very odd because everything was fine when they were doing the shadow testing!

 

[gordonjahn]

The relatively new check in process which involves queuing for a single point of check in for each half set needs to be revised on nights when there is disruption as it can add to the delays.

If the train is late arriving, the check in process doesn't seem to start until everything is ready for departure - with automatic doors, it could start before the train is ready to board and people could wait outside the train on the platform for the doors to open. It can take up to 20 minutes for everyone to be checked in.

Something better is needed - maybe allowing check in at any time and being given a 'boarding pass' would work.

Surely this will all become app-based along the lines of airline and some hotel checkin processes?

1. You arrive at the station and open the CS App,
2. A geofenced area around the station presents your checkin options and directions (to a waiting room, to a platform, tells you when boarding starts, etc),
3. Optionally CS could have you scan a barcode that's at the station (maybe on the help point screens?) which proves you're in the right station (to double check geofencing),
4. The app downloads a room key to your phone to get you in to your room (and at some stations, through barriers),
5. The app presents your breakfast options and tells you how long you have to make your selections (or confirm/reselect if you pre-booked)
6. App offers to set a wake-up call at a specific time, predicted time from destination, (with optional "don't wake me if early!") - this data is transferred to the train where the alarm in your berth is triggered at the appropriate point in the journey

It's perhaps not all possible right now, but with the target hardware now available, someone (other than me!) will be thinking through how this can be made slicker for passengers. Staff time is then freed up to help people.. and hand out physical keys when mobile networks or wifi stops working.

 

[Scotrail84]

It's an interesting question actually, ignoring current routes, on any main line, what stations do have platforms can take a full 16 car sleeper. In regular service:

Edinburgh Waverley
Carstairs
Carlisle
Preston
Crewe
Watford Junction
Newcastle
Doncaster

Any others ?

The highlighted stations can't take 16 vehicles. (Only platform 6 at crew as well.)

 

[Highlandspring]

It's an interesting question actually, ignoring current routes, on any main line, what stations do have platforms can take a full 16 car sleeper.
Any others ?

Perth platforms 4 and 7 both take (more than) 16. Of course if you end up with the full 16 in Perth then there’s been a problem somewhere else..

 

[theironroad]

Ditto..
Absolutely 100% correct.

The regulations concerning this are called HIDDEN -(I think, introduced by a Lord? Hidden circa '89??).
Came about after the Clapham disaster, it was ruled safety critical personnel -(that being; Drivers, Guards, Dispatchers, Shunters, Signallers, COSS's or anyone else involved in the movement of stock) CANNOT work for more than twelve hours in any one turn, more than seventy-two in a week or more than thirteen consecutive days on duty and must have minimum twelve hours rest between turns of duty.
I think the hosts on the sleepers are non-SC staff and therefore exempt from HIDDEN, enabling them to work slightly more than the maximum twelve hours straight?

As for Drugs & Alcohol (D&A), this is ZERO TOLERANCE. Both random and "FOR CAUSE" med-screenings take place all the time across the industry and for those who test positive or refuse to cooperate = instant summarily dismissal...

We were indoctrinated with this from day one in the school.

Safety is above all else on the railway, period.

Please

Surely this will all become app-based along the lines of airline and some hotel checkin processes?

1. You arrive at the station and open the CS App,
2. A geofenced area around the station presents your checkin options and directions (to a waiting room, to a platform, tells you when boarding starts, etc),
3. Optionally CS could have you scan a barcode that's at the station (maybe on the help point screens?) which proves you're in the right station (to double check geofencing),
4. The app downloads a room key to your phone to get you in to your room (and at some stations, through barriers),
5. The app presents your breakfast options and tells you how long you have to make your selections (or confirm/reselect if you pre-booked)
6. App offers to set a wake-up call at a specific time, predicted time from destination, (with optional "don't wake me if early!") - this data is transferred to the train where the alarm in your berth is triggered at the appropriate point in the journey

It's perhaps not all possible right now, but with the target hardware now available, someone (other than me!) will be thinking through how this can be made slicker for passengers. Staff time is then freed up to help people.. and hand out physical keys when mobile networks or wifi stops working.

Sounds good in theory, not quite sure how it will fit in with serco plans for a hotel experience on wheels. I guess a personal meet and greet is part of that at 'check in' rather than an app.