Caledonian Sleeper

[47271]

Do you mean you have booked 4 tickets for a journey on or after 2 June? I’m not sure what you mean to be honest.

He means that he's got a partially used Flexipass and wants to know if the remaining six credits on it entitle him to an ensuite room for each single journey booked. The answer is no I believe, Flexipass travel tickets are clearly marked 'Classic'.

However from what I hear from regulars I understand that for now they're automatically upgrading online Flexipass bookings to Club on the new stock.

Given the sorts of personalities involved, I can't see Flexipass passengers tolerating anything other Club standards long term, so it'll be interesting to see how this one plays out...

 

[alistairlees]

Well assuming that’s what he means then Flexipass are currently automatically booked into club class on trains on or after 2 June (ie the new trains). This will eventually stop though.

 

[Essexman]

Yes, I have 6 Flexipass tickets yet to be used for bookings. I think they should offer benefits more than the basic cabin.

 

[47271]

Yes, I have 6 Flexipass tickets yet to be used for bookings. I think they should offer benefits more than the basic cabin.

Quite, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think a lot of the people complaining about the cost are blissfully unaware of the cost of a hotel stay in London. Even so-called 'budget' hotels can be very expensive. To give an example, I've paid £185 for a berth from London to Dundee on 21 May—and yes, I'm not all that happy that it's much more than I used to pay for a shared berth. But looking at the Travelodge website for a room that night, it's quoting £199 for a room at Covent Garden, Euston, King's Cross, Southwark, Tower Bridge... then add £55 (standard) or £106 (first) for a single on the 1000 from King's Cross in the morning.

Now I could get the hotel price down to double figures by staying in Finsbury Park or Ilford, but that's less convenient or attractive. And these prices are nearly six weeks away. So in this particular case the sleeper is cheaper (and right now CS are selling a standard solo for £140 on the 21st), and it also saves a whole day compared to overnight in London and spending the whole of the next working day travelling.

If you're travelling for leisure, not fussy about a particular date and planning months ahead then obviously a hotel room can be quite a bit cheaper, but business travellers often don't have that luxury.

On 21 May you could, alternatively, get the last flight from City, (£68) Heathrow (£52) or Gatwick (£36), whichever is most convenient, get the train from Edinburgh Gateway to Dundee, and still be in your own bed in Dundee in plenty of time for a decent sleep.

If, alternatively, you can’t leave central London until after 1930, you could get the Piccadilly to Hounslow Central at your leisure, stay in the Travelodge there (£63), get the first flight out of Heathrow (£51), and the tram + train from Gateway to Dundee (£6 + £11), and get there before your second cup of tea with an extra £40 in your pocket.

 

[theironroad]

On 21 May you could, alternatively, get the last flight from City, (£68) Heathrow (£52) or Gatwick (£36), whichever is most convenient, get the train from Edinburgh Gateway to Dundee, and still be in your own bed in Dundee in plenty of time for a decent sleep.

Or even the 20:05 from Stansted to EDI for £10........

 

[mirodo]

On 21 May you could, alternatively, get the last flight from City, (£68) Heathrow (£52) or Gatwick (£36), whichever is most convenient, get the train from Edinburgh Gateway to Dundee, and still be in your own bed in Dundee in plenty of time for a decent sleep.

There's even a £10 Ryanair flight from Stansted to Edinburgh at 20:00.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, but that’s with Ryanair, and one really doesn’t propose stooping that low.

 

[Glenn1969]

It also won't be £10 by the time you have finished adding on all the extras lol

 

[ajrm]

On 21 May you could, alternatively, get the last flight from City, (£68) Heathrow (£52) or Gatwick (£36), whichever is most convenient, get the train from Edinburgh Gateway to Dundee, and still be in your own bed in Dundee in plenty of time for a decent sleep.

If, alternatively, you can’t leave central London until after 1930, you could get the Piccadilly to Hounslow Central at your leisure, stay in the Travelodge there (£63), get the first flight out of Heathrow (£51), and the tram + train from Gateway to Dundee (£6 + £11), and get there before your second cup of tea with an extra £40 in your pocket.

And that's why I don't fly from Edinburgh if I can help it.

The connection at EDI to Dundee via the Gateway is woeful: one train an hour, and they're all in the slow path. The last flights from City and Gatwick arrive at 2215, which is too close for the 2222 departure so you're looking at hanging around Edinburgh Airport or Gateway for an hour, followed by an 80 minute stagger on the last train north, an overloaded Turbostar or 158 full of drunken punters returning to Fife after a night out in Edinburgh. No thanks!

 

[alangla]

Or doss somewhere near Stansted, have a decent breakfast and get the 0910 to Dundee (£66 apparently) - Loganair also give you free checkin luggage

 

[InOban]

If Ryanair are flogging £10 tickets, that explains why they're dropping the route. Expect air fares to rise to sustainable levels.

 

[Bald Rick]

And that's why I don't fly from Edinburgh if I can help it.

The connection at EDI to Dundee via the Gateway is woeful: one train an hour, and they're all in the slow path. The last flights from City and Gatwick arrive at 2215, which is too close for the 2222 departure so you're looking at hanging around Edinburgh Airport or Gateway for an hour, followed by an 80 minute stagger on the last train north, an overloaded Turbostar or 158 full of drunken punters returning to Fife after a night out in Edinburgh. No thanks!

Yes, but that is the point - that is your choice. Most other people will choose differently to save money, or time, or to be (in their opinion) more comfortable / refreshed the next morning.

The number of people travelling daily from around London to somewhere near a station the highland sleeper serves is relatively small. The proportion of those passengers who will choose to use the sleeper over flying / day train / road is tiny. The proportion of those people who have timing restrictions such that they need to leave origin after around 1930 and/or want to be at their destination before 0900 the next day is much smaller still. The number of people who have to use the sleeper for that journey is to all intents and purposes negligible.

 

[Bald Rick]

If Ryanair are flogging £10 tickets, that explains why they're dropping the route. Expect air fares to rise to sustainable levels.

They’ll only be a handful of £10 tickets, to provide a great advert. If you want to book at short notice (and most people do), it will be a lot, lot more.

 

[47271]

Well, anyway. The sleeper works well for some people and less well for others. More to the point is whether their business model is sustainable. We'll soon know.

 

[_toommm_]

I think a lot of the people complaining about the cost are blissfully unaware of the cost of a hotel stay in London. Even so-called 'budget' hotels can be very expensive. To give an example, I've paid £185 for a berth from London to Dundee on 21 May—and yes, I'm not all that happy that it's much more than I used to pay for a shared berth. But looking at the Travelodge website for a room that night, it's quoting £199 for a room at Covent Garden, Euston, King's Cross, Southwark, Tower Bridge... then add £55 (standard) or £106 (first) for a single on the 1000 from King's Cross in the morning.

Now I could get the hotel price down to double figures by staying in Finsbury Park or Ilford, but that's less convenient or attractive. And these prices are nearly six weeks away. So in this particular case the sleeper is cheaper (and right now CS are selling a standard solo for £140 on the 21st), and it also saves a whole day compared to overnight in London and spending the whole of the next working day travelling.

If you're travelling for leisure, not fussy about a particular date and planning months ahead then obviously a hotel room can be quite a bit cheaper, but business travellers often don't have that luxury.

Easyhotel is a great brand and incredibly cheap - if you literally just need somewhere to sleep, I regularly find rooms up to a week or two before the date I need it for £30

 

[Mathew S]

Easyhotel is a great brand and incredibly cheap - if you literally just need somewhere to sleep, I regularly find rooms up to a week or two before the date I need it for £30

Indeed. I'm off up to Glasgow next week and had the option of taking the sleeper. Booked a room at the Easyhotel instead. The hotel room plus tickets with TPE/Scotrail is still a fraction of what I would have had to pay on the sleeper. It's cheaper even than a seated ticket, let alone a bed. I'd love to experience the sleeper but, frankly, the prices are just indefensible.

 

[_toommm_]

Indeed. I'm off up to Glasgow next week and had the option of taking the sleeper. Booked a room at the Easyhotel instead. The hotel room plus tickets with TPE/Scotrail is still a fraction of what I would have had to pay on the sleeper. It's cheaper even than a seated ticket, let alone a bed. I'd love to experience the sleeper but, frankly, the prices are just indefensible.

Thinking of spending some of this year's bonus from work on a trip on the Cally before the MK5's come in only way I can justify it tbh.

 

[TimboM]

Indeed. I'm off up to Glasgow next week and had the option of taking the sleeper. Booked a room at the Easyhotel instead. The hotel room plus tickets with TPE/Scotrail is still a fraction of what I would have had to pay on the sleeper. It's cheaper even than a seated ticket, let alone a bed. I'd love to experience the sleeper but, frankly, the prices are just indefensible.

Indefensible in what way? Passengers only pay approx. 30%* of the real cost of them being on the Sleeper - that's a pretty good deal and if anything's indefensible it's why Sleeper passengers should have their inherently expensive mode of travel subsidised to such an extent by a) taxpayers' money and b) Serco's losses.

The price increases are in effect passengers paying a higher proportion of what it costs for them to be on the train, but still considerably less than the real cost. It's a shame this prices some people off the Beds, but it's an economic reality of trying to balance the books on a high cost / low capacity mode of transport.

[*2017/18 ORR data reported CS cost per passenger journey of £273, of which on average passenger income was £79 (29%) and government funding £103 (38%) leaving a balance of £91 (33%) effectively being covered by Serco's losses. The report has been linked before on here (by Bald Rick I think) but for reference it's P39 in here: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...il-industry-financial-information-2017-18.pdf ]

 

[jagardner1984]

I don’t disagree with the facts of course.

My slight gripe is with £140 as the “start” point for the fares. Presumably in the high peak this will go up noticeably from there. It gives the impression this isn’t for the ordinary traveller, and that’s a dangerous route to go down. I’d venture to suggest selling a few super off peak tickets for a little bit cheaper might help stimulate demand at those times, and might even generate a bit of income (reduce the losses) on a room otherwise transported empty.

I think back to every fare increase in January, where the industry can counter to, “an open return to Glasgow costs how much, that’s ludicrous ...” with “well of course those tickets are a small minority, our advance tickets give the same journey from as little as £30”.

I suppose it all comes down to how you value a night’s sleep on a train (however nice and new, but not en-suite) with the value of a night in a hotel (en-suite). I don’t, and I genuinely don’t pay £140 for combined travel and hotel.

 

[TimboM]

CS will be expecting the new stock to attract interest and customers in the initial months. Once the novelty factor wears off we may well see various offers coming in - but not currently when there's all the publicity and I suspect demand to experience the new trains.

 

[Mathew S]

Indefensible in what way? Passengers only pay approx. 30%* of the real cost of them being on the Sleeper - that's a pretty good deal and if anything's indefensible it's why Sleeper passengers should have their inherently expensive mode of travel subsidised to such an extent by a) taxpayers' money and b) Serco's losses.

The price increases are in effect passengers paying a higher proportion of what it costs for them to be on the train, but still considerably less than the real cost. It's a shame this prices some people off the Beds, but it's an economic reality of trying to balance the books on a high cost / low capacity mode of transport.

[*2017/18 ORR data reported CS cost per passenger journey of £273, of which on average passenger income was £79 (29%) and government funding £103 (38%) leaving a balance of £91 (33%) effectively being covered by Serco's losses. The report has been linked before on here (by Bald Rick I think) but for reference it's P39 in here: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...il-industry-financial-information-2017-18.pdf ]

Indefensible from my point of view as a passenger. How can I justify paying £170 for something when I can achieve the same result - and in the same or greater comfort - for less than £50?

I also dispute the financial reality as you quote it; not on money grounds but ethical ones. The railway is supposed to be public transport. We don't expect roads to make a profit/pay for themselves, so we shouldn't expect the same of the railways. When car drivers are forced to pay the full economic cost of the journeys they make, I'll accept that rail passengers should be forced to do the same. Right now, it's political jibberish, not to mention off topic, so let's leave it there.

 

[Hipster Dashie]

Got a booking on the London to Fort William service next Sunday. Initially it looked like it was going to depart from Euston as normal, but go around the houses via Wembley and Camden road to get onto the ECML to avoid the engineering works. However it's since been confirmed it'll be departing from Kings Cross instead. Real shame, I was quite looking forward to seeing it take that unusual route, not to mention getting a couple of extra hours on the train to spend eating and drinking in the lounge car!

It's only a fiver anyway. I've used the ones at Glasgow Central when not using the Sleeper (basically to avoid stinking out a 5 hour VTWC journey for the other passengers, as I'd been staying in the CIC hut on Ben Nevis which has no showers as the water supply is a stream outside) - they are really quite nice, not at all like stereotypical station bogs. The FW ones are decent and worth the money too.

I've used the showers at Glasgow Central, was genuinely shocked at how nice they were! They must have just been refitted, really nicely done up tilework, practically spotless, and you were given a handy bag containing a nice towel, bar of soap and bottle of shower gel too. The shower itself was hot with good water pressure. Couldn't fault it at all and would happily rely on it again in the future.

I like Travelodge but anything more than £50 then I'm breaking a sweat.

However, I'm happy to accept that if you're not prepared to stay in those ghettos of Ilford and Finsbury park then we have different approaches to life lol .

I've seen prices of £200+ for the lowlander from London to Glasgow , which for most people paying their own way isn't sustainable.

At least in yesterday's BBC report about the sleeper , serco were up front that they were trying to be a hotel on wheels.

I've stayed in the Travelodge in Barking before, can't say I'll be staying there again in a rush!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indefensible from my point of view as a passenger. How can I justify paying £170 for something when I can achieve the same result - and in the same or greater comfort - for less than £50?

I also dispute the financial reality as you quote it; not on money grounds but ethical ones. The railway is supposed to be public transport. We don't expect roads to make a profit/pay for themselves, so we shouldn't expect the same of the railways. When car drivers are forced to pay the full economic cost of the journeys they make, I'll accept that rail passengers should be forced to do the same. Right now, it's political jibberish, not to mention off topic, so let's leave it there.

Sleeper trains are barely viable, as seems to be being shown over much of Europe (though OeBB's operation seems to be a bit of a quirk and I'm not sure why - preferential track access perhaps?)

So it's probably a case of have it like this or don't have it at all. The Mk2s and Mk3s are falling to bits, they do need replacing. (I'm not sure how GWR are managing here).

 

[theironroad]

Sleeper trains are barely viable, as seems to be being shown over much of Europe (though OeBB's operation seems to be a bit of a quirk and I'm not sure why - preferential track access perhaps?)

So it's probably a case of have it like this or don't have it at all. The Mk2s and Mk3s are falling to bits, they do need replacing. (I'm not sure how GWR are managing here).

I do wonder if it wasn't for the political support and the extra subsidy whether the cal sleeper would have disappeared when the stock finally became life expired.

 

[6Z09]

I imagine the sleeper will always survive as it is a political issue rather than financial.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I imagine the sleeper will always survive as it is a political issue rather than financial.

Well, the new stock guarantees it for a good few more years (unless somewhere abroad might like it in the future)

 

[6Z09]

A lot of East Coast trips over the coming weeks!

 

[Meerkat]

Cynical thought....
Drive prices up, sleeper becomes transport for the rich, sleeper becomes politically easy to kill off at franchise renewal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wonder if it wasn't for the political support and the extra subsidy whether the cal sleeper would have disappeared when the stock finally became life expired.

That was my thought, and it remains a concern with regard to the Penzance one, unless they consider a follow-on Mk5 order. They could order a couple of fixed formation sets with driving trailers to work with a 68, which would allow money to be saved on shunting.