Caledonian Sleeper

[route101]

Weight-wise they’d be able to pull it: 2x 73/9s = 3,200hp and a single 73/9 pulled the equivalent of a Load 14 Polmadie to Edinburgh last year. Wouldn’t be able to provide sufficient ETS though - the output would be no more than a single one as it doesn’t double-up in the same way.

If a diesel diversion was required from Carlisle it’d need to split there I reckon and go forward as 2x Load 8s.

Worth noting that pretty much all Glasgow - EDB routes is now electrified and cleared for 92s, so plenty more options compared to the past to divert with the 92 still attached (eg Carstairs to Edinburgh via Whifflet, Cumbernauld and Falkirk).

Only one they wont be able to use is the route via Bathgate

 

[adrock1976]

Only one they wont be able to use is the route via Bathgate

Is that the Class 92s that you are referring to?

Also, have the 73s ever ran double on the Fort William?

 

[route101]

Is that the Class 92s that you are referring to?

Also, have the 73s ever ran double on the Fort William?

Yeah , the lowland . In theory a 92 could take the sleeper to Dumbarton or something .

 

[Highlandspring]

Also, have the 73s ever ran double on the Fort William?

Yes, many times.

 

[Scotrail84]

From the Sleeper website



Only judging by what is currently showing on RTT that XC are running buses at Motherwell & looks like there isn't anything Scottish towards Lanark via P1 or P2 it seems to suggest that there might be an engineering block somewhere in that area

(I believe Euston is closed over Easter)

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G61071/2019/04/21/advanced

 

[Scotrail84]

That must be a mistake on real time trains. Got both 1M11 and 1M16 going into Euston.

 

[Kite159]

That must be a mistake on real time trains. Got both 1M11 and 1M16 going into Euston.

It hasn't been updated in the various systems yet and its using the default timings for Sunday nights going via the ECML.

(I was only asking as if it might involve an electric loco via Shotts I would have booked up for something to do over Easter and as a novelty)

 

[Scotrail84]

It hasn't been updated in the various systems yet and its using the default timings for Sunday nights going via the ECML.

(I was only asking as if it might involve an electric loco via Shotts I would have booked up for something to do over Easter and as a novelty)

It is to be diesel hauled to Edinburgh.

 

[tigerroar]

Is this the Sleeper discussion thread?

I've just booked a trip in June, solo club berth. Does my ticket include access to the First Class lounge at Euston and is food and drink in the club car included in the price of the ticket or is that extra?

 

[alistairlees]

Is this the Sleeper discussion thread?

I've just booked a trip in June, solo club berth. Does my ticket include access to the First Class lounge at Euston and is food and drink in the club car included in the price of the ticket or is that extra?

Yes Club class includes access to the virgin trains 1st class lounge at Euston, and also breakfast on the train.

 

[Scotrail84]

Is this the Sleeper discussion thread?

I've just booked a trip in June, solo club berth. Does my ticket include access to the First Class lounge at Euston and is food and drink in the club car included in the price of the ticket or is that extra?

You do not get free food and drinks on the train except breakfast.

 

[gcmozart]

Just been browing the CS website and looked up Dundee.

The fact that there's a dedicated Sleeper Lounge with free tea / coffee / biscuits / crisps / etc. should be mentioned.

I also only learnt the last time I was catching the Sleeper south and chatting to the 'Sleeper Lounge Host' that the lounge was also open in the morning for the use of arriving passengers. The fact that she got one or two customers a week should indicate to Serco that they maybe need to do some more advertising of these facilities.

Is the lounge at Dundee restricted to holders of certain classes of ticket only?

 

[cjp]

Sometimes just looking back that all has to be in place for this service (engine power, heating, track signals, crews) it is marvelous that this train, a "simple" couple of trains a day service is even running let along running to time as it does most times.
I do generally prefer it to the cheaper and quicker plane. Less hassle centre to centre.

 

[tigerroar]

You do not get free food and drinks on the train except breakfast.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Grandnat]

Yes Club class includes access to the virgin trains 1st class lounge at Euston, and also breakfast on the train.

I asked a similar question upthread.

Whilst it seems to be accepted that Club and Caledonian Doubles get First Lounge and Breakfast included - these perks are not mentioned at all on the booking pages or on the description pages on the website.

The only thing that the website mentions is priority access to the club car for these two rooms.

 

[cb a1]

Is the lounge at Dundee restricted to holders of certain classes of ticket only?

To the best of my knowledge, No. I've not been asked to even show a ticket when I've used it.

 

[Scotrail84]

1S25 - 92028

1S26 - 90048

 

[Iskra]

I asked a similar question upthread.

Whilst it seems to be accepted that Club and Caledonian Doubles get First Lounge and Breakfast included - these perks are not mentioned at all on the booking pages or on the description pages on the website.

The only thing that the website mentions is priority access to the club car for these two rooms.

It is however still on the Virgin Trains website, although using the old terminology of ‘first class passengers.’

 

[Kite159]

It is to be diesel hauled to Edinburgh.

Ta, I will probably give it a miss as I've already had a 73 divert via Shotts last year (and going into Kings Cross means the loss of the "bonus" loco on the drag back from Wembley

 

[Bungle965]

If anyone has every wondered what a walk up ticket looks like here is one.
Sam

 

[Bald Rick]

The ORR published the latest data on the industry finances (2017/18) earlier this week. Tucked away in one of the data tables is info showing how much, on average, each passenger journey is subsidised by Government funding, split by TOC.

For the Sleepers, the average subsidy per passenger journey is £103.48. This includes the seated passengers.

The 2016/17 figure was £92.30.

 

[_toommm_]

If anyone has every wondered what a walk up ticket looks like here is one.
Sam

Interesting it's not in the standard format!

 

[Mathew S]

The ORR published the latest data on the industry finances (2017/18) earlier this week. Tucked away in one of the data tables is info showing how much, on average, each passenger journey is subsidised by Government funding, split by TOC.

For the Sleepers, the average subsidy per passenger journey is £103.48. This includes the seated passengers.

The 2016/17 figure was £92.30.

Do you have a link to that data please? I'd be interested to see certain other companies’ subsidy figures.

 

[TimboM]

The ORR published the latest data on the industry finances (2017/18) earlier this week. Tucked away in one of the data tables is info showing how much, on average, each passenger journey is subsidised by Government funding, split by TOC.

For the Sleepers, the average subsidy per passenger journey is £103.48. This includes the seated passengers.

The 2016/17 figure was £92.30.

Worth noting that Serco are currently making an annual loss on the Sleeper that's a similar amount to the annual subsidy. Assuming the above figure doesn't incorporate the new stock somehow (which is in the main funding by a government grant), a rough estimate would be that each passenger journey is therefore subsidised to the tune of £200 (half by the government, half by Serco's losses). Gives an indication of what the real cost of sleeper journey would be if all the costs were all passed on to passengers - and just how uneconomical they are to run.

 

[modernrail]

Do you have a link to that data please? I'd be interested to see certain other companies’ subsidy figures.

Ouch. Is that on the basis of the existing stock? If so, I wonder what the shift will be with the new stock. I would love to know if/how OBB is doing things for less subsidy bearing in mind it's fares generally seem cheaper.

Does the data really plot down into individual accommodation types or is it just averaged across the accommodation types.

I will be travelling from London Liverpool Street to Herleen in the south of the Netherlands via Harwich and a comfortable ferry cabin for £100 on Sunday evening/Monday morning. I wonder whether there is any hidden subsidy in that fare.

 

[TimboM]

Ouch. Is that on the basis of the existing stock? If so, I wonder what the shift will be with the new stock. I would love to know if/how OBB is doing things for less subsidy bearing in mind it's fares generally seem cheaper.

Given the new stock is not in service yet and the figures were for 2017/18, it will be on the basis of the existing/old stock.

As per my post above, Serco are also making significant losses - that's really where the additional costs of running the old stock for longer are hitting, so the amount each passenger is being subsidised is unlikely to change between old and new stock (instead Serco's losses would be less).

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you have a link to that data please? I'd be interested to see certain other companies’ subsidy figures.

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...il-industry-financial-information-2017-18.pdf

Page 39 is what you want.

The TOCS with big subsidy per passenger journey are the usual suspects, second place goes to TfW (or ATW as they were then) at £10.04. Scotrail just pips Northern for 3rd place by a penny at £6.47.

Worth noting that Serco are currently making an annual loss on the Sleeper that's a similar amount to the annual subsidy. Assuming the above figure doesn't incorporate the new stock somehow (which is in the main funding by a government grant), a rough estimate would be that each passenger journey is therefore subsidised to the tune of £200 (half by the government, half by Serco's losses). Gives an indication of what the real cost of sleeper journey would be if all the costs were all passed on to passengers - and just how uneconomical they are to run.

Correct. The data shows it costs £273.02 to provide a service for each passenger, and passenger income of £78.95, a difference of £195.07. Some of these costs are transfers between TOC, NR and Transport Scotland, so it isn’t an accurate view of income vs expenditure.

 

[cb a1]

The ORR published the latest data on the industry finances (2017/18) earlier this week. Tucked away in one of the data tables is info showing how much, on average, each passenger journey is subsidised by Government funding, split by TOC.

For the Sleepers, the average subsidy per passenger journey is £103.48. This includes the seated passengers.

The 2016/17 figure was £92.30.

I think it's more appropriate to look at the funding per passenger km given sleeper journeys and ticket costs are considerably higher than for all the other TOCs.

Using that metric, it's the 5th most expensive.
£ per km
0.26 Northern
0.26 Wales & Borders
0.21 Scotrail
0.19 Merseyrail Electrics
0.16 Caledonian Sleeper

 

[Mathew S]

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...il-industry-financial-information-2017-18.pdf

Page 39 is what you want.

The TOCS with big subsidy per passenger journey are the usual suspects, second place goes to TfW (or ATW as they were then) at £10.04. Scotrail just pips Northern for 3rd place by a penny at £6.47.




Correct. The data shows it costs £273.02 to provide a service for each passenger, and passenger income of £78.95, a difference of £195.07. Some of these costs are transfers between TOC, NR and Transport Scotland, so it isn’t an accurate view of income vs expenditure.

Ta

 

[Bald Rick]

I think it's more appropriate to look at the funding per passenger km given sleeper journeys and ticket costs are considerably higher than for all the other TOCs.

Using that metric, it's the 5th most expensive.
£ per km
0.26 Northern
0.26 Wales & Borders
0.21 Scotrail
0.19 Merseyrail Electrics
0.16 Caledonian Sleeper

Fair enough.

In which case we should compare to the other pure long distance TOCs: West Coast at 1p/pax km, and East Coast at a negative subsidy (ie premium) of 2p/pax km.

So 16 times worse than the next closest.