Caledonian Sleeper

[Bill57p9]

So if you were on the seated sleeper and decanted to AWC, would that be in their First Class?

I cannot give a definitive answer to that one, however tickets for seats and a “classic” cabin are regarded as standard class, whereas club and double are 1st class tickets. Therefore on the face of it, only club & double passengers would hold 1st class tickets and be entitled to sit in 1st class on Avanti. Happy to be corrected.

 

[Scotrail84]

Yes indeed, its more a case of understanding why the system is designed in this way?

I guess you'd need to ask CAF if that is a normal design feature, or if its something that CS specifically asked for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

So if you were on the seated sleeper and decanted to AWC, would that be in their First Class?

These are the kind of things I think about.

Absolutely not. Ticket acceptance is granted for the class of travel you hold and is always subject to availability, even then Avanti or whoever the assisting company are will be well entitled to refuse first class in favour of their own passengers first and rightly so.

This causes issues with ScotRail when they assist with taking sleeper passengers after a delay or cancellation. Those who have been on the sleeper and have club room tickets (first class?) and think they can just pile in Scotrails first class sections. Theres only 18 seats if it's a 170 and 32 on and HST? Sometimes the sense of entitlement is off the scale with displaced Sleeper passengers

 

[JamieL]

Absolutely not. Ticket acceptance is granted for the class of travel you hold and is always subject to availability, even then Avanti or whoever the assisting company are will be well entitled to refuse first class in favour of their own passengers first and rightly so.

This causes issues with ScotRail when they assist with taking sleeper passengers after a delay or cancellation. Those who have been on the sleeper and have club room tickets (first class?) and think they can can just pile in Scotrails first class sections. Theres only 18 seats if it's a 170 and 32 on and HST? Sometimes the sense of entitlement is off the scale with displaced Sleeper passengers

You really don't like the Sleeper or its users do you?

 

[Scotrail84]

You really don't like the Sleeper or its users do you?

You've got me all wrong.

 

[chrisjo]

You've got me all wrong.

But speaking as a lurker on this thread, I have to say that that is the impression that you have made on me at least. If it is not the case perhaps you should clarify?

 

[Scotrail84]

But speaking as a lurker on this thread, I have to say that that is the impression that you have made on me at least. If it is not the case perhaps you should clarify?

I don't hate anyone or any TOC. I just am just posting my opinion.

 

[enginedin]

I just am just posting my opinion.

which appears to be, to everyone else, a hatred of the Sleeper...

Sometimes the sense of entitlement is off the scale with displaced Sleeper passengers

Can you blame them if they've paid £350 for a ticket?

 

[Scotrail84]

which appears to be, to everyone else, a hatred of the Sleeper...


Can you blame them if they've paid £350 for a ticket?

Never once have I posted that I 'hate' the sleeper, because I don't.

They could have paid £10,000 for a ticket, that still doesn't entitle them to automatic first class accommodation on a TOC who is doing them a favour, as always the assisting TOC's passengers come first. Your post indicates the more money you pay, the more entitled you are to get what you want??

 

[MrJeeves]

They could have paid £10,000 for a ticket, that still doesn't entitle them to automatic first class accommodation on a TOC who is doing them a favour, as always the assisting TOC's passengers come first.

I wouldn't class doing what they are obliged to do under the NRCoT as "a favour".

Am I doing the TOCs "a favour" by paying for my tickets?

 

[enginedin]

Never once have I posted that I 'hate' the sleeper

you criticise just about everything that they do regardless of the situation, so forgive us for making the mistake that you hate them, because that's the impression it gives everyone else

that still doesn't entitle them to automatic first class accommodation on a TOC who is doing them a favour

sure, that is technically correct, but to a normal customer who is holding a first class ticket, they'd expect that to be honoured

 

[Scotrail84]

you criticise just about everything that they do regardless of the situation, so forgive us for making the mistake that you hate them, because that's the impression it gives everyone else


sure, that is technically correct, but to a normal customer who is holding a first class ticket, they'd expect that to be honoured

Not everything, however there has been times when there has been poor decisions made to the detriment of passengers and crews. Don't ask me to list them because I don't want to start a war.

They are honoured, subject to availability. Thats fair.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

I wouldn't class doing what they are obliged to do under the NRCoT as "a favour".

Am I doing the TOCs "a favour" by paying for my tickets?

No, by doing so you're entering into a contract between you and the company you are travelling with which gives you the right to travel.

 

[MrJeeves]

No, by doing so you're entering into a contract between you and the company you are travelling with which gives you the right to travel.

Indeed, in the class I have paid for! In this case, First Class!

 

[Scotrail84]

Indeed, in the class I have paid for! In this case, First Class!

You get ticket acceptance to get you to your destination, 1st class is not guaranteed and you know it.

 

[MrJeeves]

You get ticket acceptance to get you to your destination, 1st class is not guaranteed and you know it.

I'd understand it's not guaranteed, but I am actually legally entitled (this is different to your "entitlement [of] Sleeper passengers") to travel under comparable transport conditions:

Where there is a reasonable expectation that a delay that will lead to arrival at the final destination 60 minutes or more late, passengers may either choose to have a:

• refund of the fare when the journey will no longer serve the passenger’s originally planned purpose. The refund will include the return journey where appropriate, or
• continuation or re-routeing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at the earliest opportunity, or
• continuation or re-routeing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience

The European Commission clarified that "comparable transport conditions" is determined on a case-by-case basis, but describing being thrown from your en-suite sleeper cabin into a standard class Avanti seat as "comparable" would be a tough argument to make in any case.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Not everything, however there has been times when there has been poor decisions made to the detriment of passengers and crews

You do seem to have a habit of posting details of every delay to a CS service of more than a few minutes. Genuinely baffled why anyone would do that unless they had - as my kids would put it - beef with them

 

[godfreycomplex]

You do seem to have a habit of posting details of every delay to a CS service of more than a few minutes. Genuinely baffled why anyone would do that unless they had - as my kids would put it - beef with them

Because you have a love of the service, think it’s being run poorly, and want it to get better perhaps?

 

[JamesT]

Because you have a love of the service, think it’s being run poorly, and want it to get better perhaps?

Posting about delays on an internet forum seems an odd way to make a service better. Correspondence with those running it or those holding the purse strings would seem somewhat more effective.

 

[Cowley]

Because you have a love of the service, think it’s being run poorly, and want it to get better perhaps?

Posting about delays on an internet forum seems an odd way to make a service better. Correspondence with those running it or those holding the purse strings would seem somewhat more effective.

Ok. I’m going to request that we leave this here now as it’s going to end up becoming personal, which isn’t what the thread is for.

Thank you.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Never once have I posted that I 'hate' the sleeper, because I don't.

They could have paid £10,000 for a ticket, that still doesn't entitle them to automatic first class accommodation on a TOC who is doing them a favour, as always the assisting TOC's passengers come first. Your post indicates the more money you pay, the more entitled you are to get what you want??

Normal passengers will feel annoyed if their sleeping arrangements have been ruined and they are sitting on a seat instead. If they feel they paid for first class and are instead in a second class (seat) they might come across, to put it politely, as "entitled". For most of the passengers they will be unaware that a different company has helped out their supplier and they best be glad of what they got. Instead they will be totally annoyed by how useless the collective "railway" has been,

 

[InvHst]

Both loco were left running today according to sources up there.

I'm also local to the area as you say it happens some days and others it doesn't

 

[Falcon1200]

For most of the passengers they will be unaware that a different company has helped out their supplier

Not so sure about that! Sleeper passengers will surely be aware that their booked service (and sleep) has been severely disrupted, and if they had not realised that they were being transferred to a train of another operator, at some point they must have been advised which train to join and that their ticket would be accepted on it.

 

[35B]

Not so sure about that! Sleeper passengers will surely be aware that their booked service (and sleep) has been severely disrupted, and if they had not realised that they were being transferred to a train of another operator, at some point they must have been advised which train to join and that their ticket would be accepted on it.

But will still consider that if they have paid for a level of service, that is the level they’re entitled to expect. Rather than moaning about passengers seeming ”entitled” and referring back to the letter of contract, some empathy and acknowledgment of the inconvenience goes a long way. That’s a general point, but goes double at silly o’clock when people have been woken and told they won’t get back to bed. I am certainly not at my best at those times.

 

[Falcon1200]

But will still consider that if they have paid for a level of service, that is the level they’re entitled to expect.

Understandable, absolutely, but from the point of view of the operator providing the alternative service; If they can accommodate all displaced passengers without detriment to those already booked with them, fine, but what if they cannot; If, for example there are more Club Class Sleeper passengers than available First Class seats?

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

TUPE conditions are protected indefinitely, unless the change is completely unrelated to the transfer (ie in 99.9% of instances the changes would also have to be happening to workers in similar roles who had always been at the company the staff moved to)

It would be a bold employer who TUPE's employees (in a highly unionised industry) and then try to change their terms. Ugly PR and likely to see a tribunal appearance too.

Having been TUPE'd once in a role that was highly unionised (at the time) and once in a non-union role, your TUPE'D conditions may be honoured, but if the new employer is creative enough there are ways of encouraging people to move - on the latter occasion, those employed by the new company had fewer holidays than those TUPE'd in, and we were told that unless we signed the new conditions and gave up our holidays, we'd never get a pay rise as long as we stayed at the new employer. They wouldn't write that down, mind you...

Crapita were even more roughshod when it came to TUPE, and found reasons to not even TUPE a good 4 or 5 people in a team of 20 on day one, leaving them jobless with no redundancy payments either.

What happened to the passengers? Tipped out in the middle of the night?

Based on the time my parents tried the sleeper, yes. Although they were relatively lucky - they made it as far as Preston before being turfed out at around 4AM.

So if you were on the seated sleeper and decanted to AWC, would that be in their First Class?

These are the kind of things I think about.

On that occasion, no. CS were trying to arrange coach transport from Preston to London. Mam and Dad had EuroStar reservations later that day, and as CS couldn't tell them when they'd arrive were forced to get the first Avanti to Euston, which cost them several hundred each from what I remember, although to be fair to CS, they did reimburse them after a couple of months.

I'm still trying to find a journey where I can legitimately use it for work and claim it's better value than train+hotel, but the problem is most of my London visits are early doors, and if I can't be sure it'll get there, I'd rather have a night in a hotel - and given the state of my delay repay account, ids not a gamble I'm willing to make!

 

[Indigo Soup]

If, for example there are more Club Class Sleeper passengers than available First Class seats?

As, I believe, there are certain to be should an 8-car Inverness portion be fully booked - with a theoretical capacity of 66 First Class passengers. In fact, should the passengers of such a train be decanted onto a ScotRail Class 170 running in the normal timetable, it's entirely likely that some would not only not get First Class seats, but not get seats at all.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not so sure about that! Sleeper passengers will surely be aware that their booked service (and sleep) has been severely disrupted, and if they had not realised that they were being transferred to a train of another operator, at some point they must have been advised which train to join and that their ticket would be accepted on it.

My experience is of non-railway people (both staff/enthusiast) friends who just see it as the railway and do not see it as separate operators. Which is why some of them have trouble understanding that their ticket is not valid for all trains on a given route. A tourist might not understand the intricacies of UK rail.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Just off the (Seated – we’re skint ) EUS – GLC Sleeper this morning and thought I’d check on the new CS Lounge (sorry if this is old news or covered elsewhere). The old Avanti lounge is gone now and there's a nice new Avanti only lounge at the city end of Platform 1. The Avanti staff told me that CS “didn’t submit their plans in time” so work hasn’t started on the CS lounge and that Sleeper passengers are not being admitted to the Avanti lounge. Not sure if this is the correct?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just off the (Seated – we’re skint ) EUS – GLC Sleeper this morning and thought I’d check on the new CS Lounge (sorry if this is old news or covered elsewhere). The old Avanti lounge is gone now and there's a nice new Avanti only lounge at the city end of Platform 1. The Avanti staff told me that CS “didn’t submit their plans in time” so work hasn’t started on the CS lounge and that Sleeper passengers are not being admitted to the Avanti lounge. Not sure if this is the correct?

Guest Lounges

Guest Lounges | Caledonian Sleeper. View information and opening hours for our Guest Lounges in London Euston, Inverness, Perth, Dundee, Leuchars and Fort William

www.sleeper.scot

Avanti West Coast Glasgow Guest Lounge​

Sunday to Friday 20:00 to 22:00
Tickets accepted: Caledonian Double & Club only

They might have failed to update, but that makes clear it's on departure only, not arrival, and is only for Double and Club customers, not Seated. This ticket limitation seems to be true of most lounges.

 

[Scotrail84]

Guest Lounges

Guest Lounges | Caledonian Sleeper. View information and opening hours for our Guest Lounges in London Euston, Inverness, Perth, Dundee, Leuchars and Fort William

www.sleeper.scot

They might have failed to update, but that makes clear it's on departure only, not arrival, and is only for Double and Club customers, not Seated. This ticket limitation seems to be true of most lounges.

On the subject of CS lounges, the outlying ones are grossly underused and possibly earmarked for closure. The one at Leuchars for example is a complete waste of money as its rarely open and when it is theres never anyone in it.

 

[Travelmonkey]

was in inverness the other week at peak there was 4 of us in the lounge