Caledonian Sleeper

[M&NEJ]

Have you tried State R

I've been spoiled by sleepers abroad where the compartments have full-size windows and lower bunks that convert into seats!

Have you experienced the State Railways of Thailand? Excellent example of large window, lower bunk converts to seats, clean and comfortable, typically for 1000 Thai baht i.e about £25 total price for 12 hours' travel on a bed.

 

[JonathanH]

I've often wondered if or when CS will run out of wealthy tourist's and businesses people who ate willing to pay the fares?

If you go to Euston to see who is queuing up to use the sleeper, they certainly don't all look like wealthy tourists and business people. I perhaps wonder whether different people place a different value on travel.

 

[alistairlees]

For some time now it has looked like a lot of tourists / backpackers, with very few overt business people to be seen (laptop use in the Club car is now far less common than it was, even on supposedly 'business' trains like the Glasgow service).

 

[GordonT]

For some time now it has looked like a lot of tourists / backpackers, with very few overt business people to be seen (laptop use in the Club car is now far less common than it was, even on supposedly 'business' trains like the Glasgow service).

BBC Newsnight presenter, Kirsty Wark, was a regular sleeper user between London and Glasgow and may well still be. Some Scottish MPs certainly used it regularly in the past but I'm not sure if they continue to use it.

 

[Blindtraveler]

My local MP was often to be found in the seats going northbound on a Thursday and and would usually sleep pretty soundly as well, more than once pre-pandemic we had the rather amusing experience of greeting each other on the train and then greeting each other later because I had attended her surgery for whatever reason. About the third time this happened she said why didn't you just talk to me on the train? I said that I assumed she was off duty in didn't want to bother with work

 

[XAM2175]

Have you experienced the State Railways of Thailand? Excellent example of large window, lower bunk converts to seats, clean and comfortable, typically for 1000 Thai baht i.e about £25 total price for 12 hours' travel on a bed.

No, I haven't, but you're not the first to mention them to me.

The XPT twinette cabins in New South Wales are the sort of thing I had in mind and they sound quite similar. The fact that they can be used as seated cabins at either side of the sleep period is a huge bonus,* and it's the sort of thing that the Fort William leg in particular would benefit from.

File:NSW TrainLink XPT Daysitter Cabin.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

File:NSW TrainLink XPT First Class Sleeper.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

Of course it does help having a bit more loading gauge to play with:

File:XPT train sleeper car.JPG - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

* = In fact they're sold as ordinary first-class compartments on day trains, and the corridor-side wall is glass to enable viewing out the windows on the other side.

 

[Essexman]

For some time now it has looked like a lot of tourists / backpackers, with very few overt business people to be seen (laptop use in the Club car is now far less common than it was, even on supposedly 'business' trains like the Glasgow service).

Pre-covid I often used the sleeper (usually Glasgow) for business - but never looked like a traditional business traveller.

However I haven't used it for work since the pandemic started (I'm not sure it's actually finished) partly as a result of changes in my business and partly as we've realised we can manage with fewer face to face meetings.

 

[jagardner1984]

There is a phrase used in my work which I feel in some ways applies to me. I am lucky enough to be financially ok, but I am very time poor. I work long hours and my windows to get places seem ever narrower. To see family etc.

So the sleeper is perfect for me in that I can do things until 8/9pm in one city, and be in another doing something else the next morning.

The whole trend of retail for example (deliveries, click and collect) is moving towards those in exactly my position.
The sleeper certainly seems to be doing something right, though from the various hardware issue with the rolling stock, assuming they are financed over decades not years, I do wonder how many doors / lights / taps will actually be functioning a decade from now, and whether there will be another conversation about viability of the service and the need for an overhaul / upgrade.

It would be great if there was more of a loyalty / bonus scheme so regular travellers are not priced out of the summer months.

Also, not heading too far into speculative ideas I hope - but What would the longest set that could currently fit into Waverley be ? As I would assume from the ticket site demand outstrips supply significantly most nights in August, makes you wonder if the split could not be equal for a short period to boost availability into Edinburgh …. Or given the timetable slack, the whole train to waverley, split and half to Glasgow, half to Polmadie ECS.

 

[Siemens Trains]

What would the longest set that could currently fit into Waverley be ? As I would assume from the ticket site demand outstrips supply significantly most nights in August, makes you wonder if the split could not be equal for a short period to boost availability into Edinburgh …. Or given the timetable slack, the whole train to waverley, split and half to Glasgow, half to Polmadie ECS.

I suspect this is a non-starter as arranging specials is something operators are reluctant to do these days so I can't see an exceptional coach configuration for only a few journeys per year going down well. From what I can make out (mainly from following this thread) it seems the more resources that are used on the sleeper, the bigger the losses incurred almost regardless of ticket prices. Passenger demand and how much they're willing to pay are almost irrelevant.

 

[zwk500]

Also, not heading too far into speculative ideas I hope - but What would the longest set that could currently fit into Waverley be ? As I would assume from the ticket site demand outstrips supply significantly most nights in August, makes you wonder if the split could not be equal for a short period to boost availability into Edinburgh …. Or given the timetable slack, the whole train to waverley, split and half to Glasgow, half to Polmadie ECS.

Waverley can accommodate the full 16-car set, definitely on 2/19 and 7/11, not sure about 1/20. However dumping the train across two platforms for the morning isn't going to be popular, nor would the delayed arrival time in Glasgow.

 

[Essexman]

There is a phrase used in my work which I feel in some ways applies to me. I am lucky enough to be financially ok, but I am very time poor. I work long hours and my windows to get places seem ever narrower. To see family etc.

So the sleeper is perfect for me in that I can do things until 8/9pm in one city, and be in another doing something else the next morning.

The whole trend of retail for example (deliveries, click and collect) is moving towards those in exactly my position.
The sleeper certainly seems to be doing something right, though from the various hardware issue with the rolling stock, assuming they are financed over decades not years, I do wonder how many doors / lights / taps will actually be functioning a decade from now, and whether there

It would be great if there was more of a loyalty / bonus scheme so regular travellers are not priced out of the summer months.

Also, not heading too far into speculative ideas I hope - but What would the longest set that could currently fit into Waverley be ? As I would assume from the ticket site demand outstrips supply significantly most nights in August, makes you wonder if the split could not be equal for a short period to boost availability into Edinburgh …. Or given the timetable slack, the whole train to waverley, split and half to Glasgow, half to Polmadie ECS.

I use the sleeper in a similar way.

The Flexipass acts as a loyalty scheme for regular travellers.

As Edinburgh is often busier than Edinburgh in summen I wonder if they could split say 10/6 or would that be too complicated.

 

[DelW]

No, I haven't, but you're not the first to mention them to me.

The XPT twinette cabins in New South Wales are the sort of thing I had in mind and they sound quite similar. The fact that they can be used as seated cabins at either side of the sleep period is a huge bonus,* and it's the sort of thing that the Fort William leg in particular would benefit from.

File:NSW TrainLink XPT Daysitter Cabin.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

File:NSW TrainLink XPT First Class Sleeper.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

Of course it does help having a bit more loading gauge to play with:

File:XPT train sleeper car.JPG - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

* = In fact they're sold as ordinary first-class compartments on day trains, and the corridor-side wall is glass to enable viewing out the windows on the other side.

Actually the Thai ones (at least, the ones I've used between Bangkok and Butterworth in Malaysia) are rather different in layout from those. The beds are longitudinal, either side of a central aisle, with curtains to screen them off. The seats on either side of the aisle convert to a lower wide single / narrow double bed, like a caravan dinette, and above that there's a single upper bunk that hinges down.

I don't have any photos of them in sleeping mode, but these are the daytime view:


My trips were about 21 hours each way, and as the train wasn't too crowded these were quite comfortable even for that length of time. Tables could be fitted in each bay, and a good choice of meals was available, served to your seat. If you didn't fancy the on-board menu, hot food sellers came walking through at most (daytime) station stops.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Seating coach wouldn’t really bother me but if I start snoring I feel a but concious about that

Quite a few years ago, I ended up in the seats almost completely alone one winter Tuesday evening, except for one woman. I'd brought quite a few beers and a bottle of vodka for the journey (ah, to be a student again!), and it seemed quite rude not to offer to share given the long journey ahead. She took me up on the offer, and it turned out that we had some mutual friends.

End result was drinking through the entire night, before it dawned on me that I had to somehow find my way back to Chelmsford while being quite, quite inebriated.

Terribly good fun, although I dread to think how other passengers would have reacted if there were any. I remember at one point in the middle of the night, we were quite happily singing along to the radio!

 

[railfan99]

Have you tried State R

Have you experienced the State Railways of Thailand? Excellent example of large window, lower bunk converts to seats, clean and comfortable, typically for 1000 Thai baht i.e about £25 total price for 12 hours' travel on a bed.

I finally did almost the whole Thai network (including sleepers) in late 2018: great narrow gauge railway.

But sleepers that do what you state are numerous in much of the world: India is fine (lots of middle/upper class residents travelling: I went there in very late 2019), NSW TrainLink in Australia that runs as far south as Melbourne and north to Brisbane, but won't have a sleeper when stupid new CAF equipment replaces the XPTs in 2023 or maybe 2024 are three quick examples.

On a forthcoming trip I am doing CS to see what it's like, but an Australian friend who did both in the last month said ride quality on the GWR 'Night Riviera' was way superior.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a forthcoming trip I am doing CS to see what it's like, but an Australian friend who did both in the last month said ride quality on the GWR 'Night Riviera' was way superior.

Mk3s definitely ride better than CAF kit.

 

[LiftFan]

Mk3s definitely ride better than CAF kit.

I find the Mk3s have better general ride quality, however when departing from a standstill they have a horrible habit of lurching me awake.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find the Mk3s have better general ride quality, however when departing from a standstill they have a horrible habit of lurching me awake.

Yeah, one characteristic of hauled Mk3s of all kinds was always a massive lurch and shock wave as the couplers tightened. Often mid journey too.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Actually the Thai ones (at least, the ones I've used between Bangkok and Butterworth in Malaysia) are rather different in layout from those. The beds are longitudinal, either side of a central aisle, with curtains to screen them off. The seats on either side of the aisle convert to a lower wide single / narrow double bed, like a caravan dinette, and above that there's a single upper bunk that hinges down.

I don't have any photos of them in sleeping mode, but these are the daytime view:
View attachment 118710View attachment 118711

My trips were about 21 hours each way, and as the train wasn't too crowded these were quite comfortable even for that length of time. Tables could be fitted in each bay, and a good choice of meals was available, served to your seat. If you didn't fancy the on-board menu, hot food sellers came walking through at most (daytime) station stops.

From memory there are three types of Thai sleeper.
2nd Class Fan as in your second picture - kind of normal seating that folds out into a bunk and another bunk above.
2nd Class Aircon - from memory same/similar to Fan.
1st Class - my favourite as still very cheap and laid out as a side corridor with bunk beds transverse, the upper bunk folds away iirc but they are both wide enough that we slept together on one and used the top bunk for all our luggage. Compartment a bit bigger than the UK version.
I have not used one since about 2005 though.

Ride was OK always slept solidly (You can blame Beer Chang). Very nice and a lot cheaper than the UK offering which was getting tired before the Mk5s and Mk5s seem to be awful.

 

[LiftFan]

Yeah, one characteristic of hauled Mk3s of all kinds was always a massive lurch and shock wave as the couplers tightened. Often mid journey too.

I have a lot to praise about the Night Riviera- Comfy ride, linens are amazing, noise level is good, mattress is heavenly.
Places the Caledonian does better? No jerking in the night (no rude awakenings at Edinburgh), better climate control, less narrow bed.
Combine the two and you'll get a perfect sleeper bed- smooth, comfortable, quiet and just the right temperature.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Yeah, one characteristic of hauled Mk3s of all kinds was always a massive lurch and shock wave as the couplers tightened. Often mid journey too.

When the Mk3 sleepers were brand new, on my first trip the departure was so smooth I was only aware of the train starting to move by looking through window.

 

[Caleb2010]

I the initial departure always seemed smooth to me with mk3s! As has been said it was during the journey - 92’s were the worst when accelerating or braking you invariably felt it through the whole train!

Funny how a 90 with its higher top speed was smoother!

 

[Bletchleyite]

When the Mk3 sleepers were brand new, on my first trip the departure was so smooth I was only aware of the train starting to move by looking through window.

Sounds like a very good driver who "took up" the train carefully before notching up. On WCML Mk3 sets they tended to stick the power in more quickly which always caused a massive lurch and a bang.

 

[trebor79]

I the initial departure always seemed smooth to me with mk3s! As has been said it was during the journey - 92’s were the worst when accelerating or braking you invariably felt it through the whole train!

Funny how a 90 with its higher top speed was smoother!

Not my experience on the Mk3 sets on the GEML. Lots of lurching when powering up and braking, and usually an almighty bang when departing Liverpool Street.

Sounds like a very good driver who "took up" the train carefully before notching up. On WCML Mk3 sets they tended to stick the power in more quickly which always caused a massive lurch and a bang.

That was my experience on the GEML too, though it always seemed worse when the DVT was leading. Whether that was due to gradients (the DVT always face Norwich) I wasn't sure. I think I read somewhere that the 'notching' in the DVT was coarser that the locomotive.

 

[XAM2175]

Funny how a 90 with its higher top speed was smoother!

Sounds like a very good driver who "took up" the train carefully before notching up. On WCML Mk3 sets they tended to stick the power in more quickly which always caused a massive lurch and a bang.

It's a bit of dying art, sadly. Fortunately the Dellners on the Mk 5s make up for a lot of it.

 

[Falcon1200]

My last trip on the Mark 3 Sleepers was Edinburgh-Euston in 2019; The bangs, creaks and groans when combining with the Glasgow portion at Carstairs were louder than the noises made by the sinking Titanic in the film of the same name.......

 

[Royston Vasey]

My last trip on the Mark 3 Sleepers was Edinburgh-Euston in 2019; The bangs, creaks and groans when combining with the Glasgow portion at Carstairs were louder than the noises made by the sinking Titanic in the film of the same name.......

At least the cabin door didn't rattle all night whilst sitting 10 feet from a wheel flat! Having done both, I slept far better on the Mk 3 Night Riviera than I did the Mk 5 Caledonian. But the shunting in Edinburgh was without any jolts at all, in fact the blasting air conditioning cutting out during the change of loco gave the best chance of falling sleep all night!

 

[Bill57p9]

At least the cabin door didn't rattle all night whilst sitting 10 feet from a wheel flat! Having done both, I slept far better on the Mk 3 Night Riviera than I did the Mk 5 Caledonian. But the shunting in Edinburgh was without any jolts at all, in fact the blasting air conditioning cutting out during the change of loco gave the best chance of falling sleep all night!

In terms of noise, I find the use of a diaphragm water pump disappointing. The mk3s are much less advanced, relying on silent gravity. To be fair I suspect gravity wouldn't be sufficient for the showers to work well.

And before anyone points out that if you don't use the sink or shower whilst asleep (or trying to), I find the issue is when you're neighbour uses them

 

[Caleb2010]

I suppose the lurching and banging was there when the sleeper was hauled by a 90, but to me it didn’t seem as bad!

Also, they were always hauling. I’ve travelled on ECML and so on with 90’s and DVT’s - didn’t notice a difference either way round personally- but that’s probably just me!!

Mind you, being in the accessible berth right above the wheels was a bit of a lively ride anyway!

 

[snowleopard]

Despite having lived in the UK for quite a while and having planned to do this earlier, I'll finally be taking the sleeper for the first time this week (London-Fort William).

Quite keen to not miss the scenic parts of the West Highland Line but also want to get enough sleep to not be a wreck simply for getting up at 5am and looking at suburbs of Edinburgh and Glasgow - no offense to them but they're not unfamiliar. Having looked at the timetable, I was thinking of setting the alarm for about 6.30/6.45am when, if all goes well, we ought to be around Helensburgh/Garelochhead. Does that sound sensible - or would you get up earlier (or indeed later) for the good views?

I'll be going back from Oban to Glasgow on a daytime train a week later, so at least as far as the Crianlarich-Glasgow portion is concerned I'll get two chances of seeing it.

Thanks!

 

[alistairlees]

Despite having lived in the UK for quite and while and having planned to do this earlier, I'll finally be taking the sleeper for the first time this week (London-Fort William).

Quite keen to not miss the scenic parts of the West Highland Line but also want to get enough sleep to not be a wreck simply for getting up at 5am and looking at suburbs of Edinburgh and Glasgow - no offense to them but they're not unfamiliar. Having looked at the timetable, I was thinking of setting the alarm for about 6.30/6.45am when, if all goes well, we ought to be around Helensburgh/Garelochhead. Does that sound sensible - or would you get up earlier (or indeed later) for the good views?

I'll be going back from Oban to Glasgow on a daytime train a week later, so at least as far as the Crianlarich-Glasgow portion is concerned I'll get two chances of seeing it.

Thanks!

Helensburgh is where it gets interesting, so yes. Not many other people up and in the lounge car at that point though last time I was on the Fort William (in June).