Caledonian Sleeper

[Norther Monkey]

Any incident of this sort is bound to result in a lot of unhappy pax.
So the CS controller last night (and I can't believe there is more than 1 on duty for such a small operation) will have had at least four trains running out of course/cancelled with passengers to be conveyed to/from lots of minor unstaffed stations, some not easily accessible, by arranging last minute road transport, probably with multiple firms. Not only dealing with the passenger journeys dislocated, but also the implications for the crews and rolling stock.
Maybe the Controller had help, but you can easily imagine how making the arrangements can take precedence over the communication, particularly if the arrangements are not going well.
You clearly had communication with the host(s) to form your view that they are demotivated - so when you asked why no hot drink had been provided what was the answer?

If you're correct, then Serco need to adjust their staff numbers or procedures so they can deliver service commensurate with the price and advertising.
Perhaps it suggests that separating it from the main Scotrail franchise wasn't the correct decision. Surely Scotrail would have a bigger 'backroom' presence with greater experience to fall back on.

 

[Darandio]

I travelled on the Lowland sleeper on Thursday night and my cabin was in pristine condition, everything working and no noticeable scratches, not that I studied it that closely. The staff were very good and did not appear at all demoralised.

Defend, defend, defend.....

Everything is fine then, you had a great experience. All of the hundreds of horror stories over the past 12 months are simply lies.

 

[47271]

The decision to taxi from Dundee was really the only one that could be made in the circumstances of line closures and stock positioning this morning. I suppose the passenger could've been given the choice of staying on to Aberdeen and making their own arrangements for getting to the west, but that would have been worse.

I know that there are plenty of cabins showing premature signs of wear and tear. I suspect that this is down to combination of construction standards and materials, hit and miss cleaning, and inadequate luggage storage. On the couple of trips I've made on the new trains I was forever moving things around just to make a bit of space, and this meant that I was constantly knocking surfaces and fittings. It wouldn't surprise me if manhandling of luggage was the cause of the scratches on the window. The absence of overhead luggage racks, supposedly on safety grounds, is one of the biggest shortcomings of the mk5s.

As for apparently demoralised staff providing minimal communication and service, I have my suspicions as to a few individuals who that might have been northbound at Dundee on Saturday morning, but I won't say any more than that.

On both points, the rooms and the service, the number one concern emerging is consistency. How is that cabins can find themselves damaged, dirty or faulty and that not get dealt with, and why can one crew provide fantastic service in difficult circumstances (and they still do night in night out) and another finds the slightest excuse to do nothing at all?

I don't know for sure, but from what I hear one of the ways that Serco is controlling losses on the service is by reducing management and supervision costs. I can't remember the last time I heard one of the regulars I'm touch with say 'I spoke to so-and-so manager in the lounge this week'. I fear that they've got to the point that they'd rather save the money than ensure that everything's right, whether that's when a train leaves the depot or onboard during the journey.

On a slightly more positive note, there's no doubt that the new trains are performing more reliably than they were during the summer and autumn, not that this fact would've been much consolation while consuming an 'emergency' breakfast just before 6 this morning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Defend, defend, defend.....

Everything is fine then, you had a great experience. All of the hundreds of horror stories over the past 12 months are simply lies.

I'm sure most people have a satisfactory journey.

The problem is that the marketing isn't about a satisfactory journey, it's not the Thello, NightJet or any one of the other budget-style overnight D-trains in Europe. It's near enough sold as the Savoy on wheels (well, maybe not the Savoy, but certainly the Renaissance Marriott or the Hilton), and observations seem to suggest there is an abject failure to deliver on that.

Market it as a cheap and cheerful overnight service like say the Night Riviera (which I'm sure has as many issues, some of which are reported on that thread) and I doubt anyone will be quite so fussy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know that there are plenty of cabins showing premature signs of wear and tear. I suspect that this is down to combination of construction standards and materials, hit and miss cleaning, and inadequate luggage storage. On the couple of trips I've made on the new trains I was forever moving things around just to make a bit of space, and this meant that I was constantly knocking surfaces and fittings. It wouldn't surprise me if manhandling of luggage was the cause of the scratches on the window. The absence of overhead luggage racks, supposedly on safety grounds, is one of the biggest shortcomings of the mk5s

It would seem obvious for a sleeper train to design it so you could shove luggage under the lower bed. Is this not the case?

But this sounds like an excuse - CAF after all have designed all their day trains with absolutely massive overhead racks, the seated coaches included, which will easily take even the largest of bags, including my 120 litre rucksack (not an Army bergen but that sort of size) with a tent and roll mat attached.

As for build quality, there are other threads about this. Cheap as... I suspect they will need a refurb sooner rather than later. As for the windows, don't they have anti-vandal film? If so it just needs pulling off and replacing.

 

[Struner]

Isn’t the interior layout decided by the operator as well then?

 

[Norther Monkey]

I'm sure most people have a satisfactory journey.

The problem is that the marketing isn't about a satisfactory journey, it's not the Thello, NightJet or any one of the other budget-style overnight D-trains in Europe. It's near enough sold as the Savoy on wheels (well, maybe not the Savoy, but certainly the Renaissance Marriott or the Hilton), and observations seem to suggest there is an abject failure to deliver on that.

Market it as a cheap and cheerful overnight service like say the Night Riviera (which I'm sure has as many issues, some of which are reported on that thread) and I doubt anyone will be quite so fussy.

Exactly this. In addition to Serco the Scottish Government must share the blame as they defined the franchise requirements and split it from the main Scotrail franchise.

 

[47271]

It would seem obvious for a sleeper train to design it so you could shove luggage under the lower bed. Is this not the case?

But this sounds like an excuse - CAF after all have designed all their day trains with absolutely massive overhead racks, the seated coaches included, which will easily take even the largest of bags, including my 120 litre rucksack (not an Army bergen but that sort of size) with a tent and roll mat attached.

As for build quality, there are other threads about this. Cheap as... I suspect they will need a refurb sooner rather than later. As for the windows, don't they have anti-vandal film? If so it just needs pulling off and replacing.

The only place you can put your luggage is under the bed. The problem is that each time you want something out of your stored case, you've got to step aside, pull it round your legs and either humph it up on the bed, open it on the floor, or place it on the unprotected wash basin with its spindly tap. All the time it's likely to be coming into contact with, and potentially damaging, surfaces and fittings.

In a mk3 the same case went straight on the overhead rack in single heave, and every time you wanted something you could take it down and place it on the folding shelf that covered the wash basin whenever the basin wasn't in use. A washbag, for example, could come out of the case and find itself on the other part of the folding shelf that covered the foot of the bed.

Now there's nowhere to reliably put anything larger than a mobile phone. It's amazing what finds itself plonked on top of the bog in ensuite cabins.

 

[RT4038]

Defend, defend, defend.....

Everything is fine then, you had a great experience. All of the hundreds of horror stories over the past 12 months are simply lies.

I never said everything was fine, but my two recent experiences certainly were, to add some perspective. I am well aware of all sorts of incidents over the last 12 months, but this is a railway service after all, and these incidents occur with monotonous regularity all over the network. There is no reason to think that the CS will be any different. The railway is geared to carrying large amounts of passengers on fairly standard journeys with only very small amounts of staff interaction per passenger. It is pretty hopeless at suddenly having to focus lots of staff time on the disparate needs of individual travellers.
Much has been made in this forum about CS marketing hyperbole - however complainants' hyperbole is just as bad. The OP was obviously bitterly disappointed that the Fort William train didn't go to Fort William (due to physical conditions beyond CS control) and I think arrived there by replacement road transport in much the same time as the train would have taken. In the circumstances of this morning, a lack of a hot drink and some scratches on the fittings are a bit of a First World problem....

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the circumstances of this morning, a lack of a hot drink and some scratches on the fittings are a bit of a First World problem....

Again, the whole problem is with the marketing. If it is a premium service, one expects provisions to be made not to have those issues[1].

Change the marketing and that goes away and it's all fine.

[1] I don't mean failure to reach FW.

 

[RT4038]

Again, the whole problem is with the marketing. If it is a premium service, one expects provisions to be made not to have those issues[1].

Change the marketing and that goes away and it's all fine.

[1] I don't mean failure to reach FW.

The marketing may have been pitched a little high, but I suspect that the fares being charged require some upmarket feel. The real problem is that it is an orphan in the modern day UK railway. The operating model is totally different to the mainstream, with a motley collection of locomotives and bespoke staffing. From the point of view of the travelling public, the facilities are nowhere near a hotel , but the carrying capacity is very limited compared to the costs of operation. This results in high fares, grotesque subsidy per passenger, high unreliability and a poor perception of value for money. However, lower fares will mean even higher subsidies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know it's much more complex, but how does this all compare to the Night Riviera, which has much lower-key marketing and rather lower fares?

 

[paul1609]

I know it's much more complex, but how does this all compare to the Night Riviera, which has much lower-key marketing and rather lower fares?

Much lower costs I'd imagine. One service 6 days a week down one line utilising life expired rollingstock.

 

[RT4038]

I know it's much more complex, but how does this all compare to the Night Riviera, which has much lower-key marketing and rather lower fares?

I suspect that your point about complexity is the key - if Avanti West Coast ran a Sleeper between London & Glasgow, using 40 year old cars, the complexity and some of the bespokeness would be alleviated. But even the Night Riviera has a grotesque subsidy per passenger for an Inter City service. The lower fares are not going to make car replacement worthwhile either.

 

[trebor79]

Much lower costs I'd imagine. One service 6 days a week down one line utilising life expired rollingstock.

The refurbishment on the Night Riviera stock was very comprehensive. When I travelled last year, I was extremely impressed. The lounge car is unrecognisable as a Mk3 from the inside - only the ceiling profile and manual doors give it away. Likewise the cabins are unrecognisable compared to the pre-refurb design and finish.
It's not life expired. And if it was, surely that would increase costs due to frequent repairs being needed?

 

[trebor79]

Perhaps the Night Riviera and CS should be part of one franchise? There might be a developing market for other sleeper services too.

 

[JonathanH]

There might be a developing market for other sleeper services too.

Sleeper services require a lot of subsidy as they can't possibly run economically. There is nowhere apart from Scotland and West Cornwall that is far enough away from London for sleeper services and nowhere near enough demand for any other service to exist.

 

[RT4038]

Perhaps the Night Riviera and CS should be part of one franchise? There might be a developing market for other sleeper services too.

Running one train per day hundreds of miles is very inefficient. AMTRAK finds this too. There is no market for commercial sleeper services.

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps the Night Riviera and CS should be part of one franchise? There might be a developing market for other sleeper services too.

I'd rather keep the successful Night Riveria service as far away as possible from the somewhat less successful Caledonian Sleeper outfit...

Much lower costs I'd imagine. One service 6 days a week down one line utilising life expired rollingstock.

One thing that will contribute to lower costs I would imagine will be that the drivers and guards are all GWR staff and all work long distance daytime services as well as the Sleeper. The only dedicated staff, as far as I'm aware, are the Sleeper Hosts.

Running one train per day hundreds of miles is very inefficient. AMTRAK finds this too. There is no market for commercial sleeper services.

I could be wrong but I'm under the impression that, at least at one point in the past, the Night Riveria wasn't part of the franchise spec so was being run outside of the GW contract. So it can't have been that dreadful on the cost front...

 

[paul1609]

I'd rather keep the successful Night Riveria service as far away as possible from the somewhat less successful Caledonian Sleeper outfit...



One thing that will contribute to lower costs I would imagine will be that the drivers and guards are all GWR staff and all work long distance daytime services as well as the Sleeper. The only dedicated staff, as far as I'm aware, are the Sleeper Hosts.



I could be wrong but I'm under the impression that, at least at one point in the past, the Night Riveria wasn't part of the franchise spec so was being run outside of the GW contract. So it can't have been that dreadful on the cost front...

At one point it was basically being run in to the ground presumably so they could withdraw it without public outcry. You could only get a bErth on the night. On a Sunday night it was not uncommon for the down sleeper to have half a dozen passengers in total

 

[JonathanH]

I could be wrong but I'm under the impression that, at least at one point in the past, the Night Riveria wasn't part of the franchise spec so was being run outside of the GW contract. So it can't have been that dreadful on the cost front...

I seem to recall that bidders for the current GWR franchise were invited to make bids with and without the sleeper included to allow its costs to be identified.

 

[ainsworth74]

At one point it was basically being run in to the ground presumably so they could withdraw it without public outcry. You could only get a bErth on the night. On a Sunday night it was not uncommon for the down sleeper to have half a dozen passengers in total

Well it certainly ain't like that now!!!

I seem to recall that bidders for the current GWR franchise were invited to make bids with and without the sleeper included to allow its costs to be identified.

Hmm perhaps that's where I got that idea from?

 

[jagardner1984]

I'd assume at some point the Night Riviera stock will not be economic to repair, and they will face the same challenge of building new stock into a service which doesn't generate much revenue. Maybe they will do it better, maybe they will avoid CAF, but it will still be a huge value order of a tiny number of items.

CS' issues clearly have been worsened by there not being a stock tried and tested coach product (i.e. the modern Mk3) which could then been design adapted for sleeper use so they are trying to invent the wheel in that regard as well.

As others have commented, there is a fundamental contradiction between:
1. We want a cost effective, time efficient means of travel between London and Scotland
2. We as taxpayers want to subsidise less the travel choices of a tiny group of travellers, many tourists, many well off.
3. We have some very elderly rolling stock and we'd quite like some shiny rolling stock.

Whilst of course the people with the worst experiences always shout the loudest on the internet, if I were sat in my little home in the Australian outback planning my trip of a lifetime to the UK, and searched Trustpilot or Tripadvisor for this "Caledonian Sleeper" I'd read about in the travel book, would my plan of how I was getting to Scotland go any further ?? Whatever we think of the operation, this is a big issue for the market the sleeper now seeks to serve.

 

[Mainliner]

Scratches on the windows, bins broken, lights broken, stains on the carpets, chipped coverings on the beds and around windows, scratches over the light and plug switches. Really bad.

I’m not at all surprised about the carpet stains, having read this recent review:

“Worst of all, there’s no shelf next to the head of the bed. So where are you supposed to put your book, your reading glasses or a glass of water? Am I the only passenger who travels with these things? Worst of all, nowhere to put your boiling hot cup of instant coffee in the morning! As a result, trying to balance it on my lap while i opened my milk satchet, I spilled it! It went straight through the duvet and my nightdress and burnt the top layer of skin off my inner thigh.”

This just seems a lack of thought in design.

 

[RT4038]

I’m not at all surprised about the carpet stains, having read this recent review:

“Worst of all, there’s no shelf next to the head of the bed. So where are you supposed to put your book, your reading glasses or a glass of water? Am I the only passenger who travels with these things? Worst of all, nowhere to put your boiling hot cup of instant coffee in the morning! As a result, trying to balance it on my lap while i opened my milk satchet, I spilled it! It went straight through the duvet and my nightdress and burnt the top layer of skin off my inner thigh.”

This just seems a lack of thought in design.

That is not quite true. In the berths that I have recently travelled in there was a side pocket at each end of the bed, for mobile phone at one end and reading glasses, watch, water bottle near your head. When the hot drink comes it stands on the floor, not balanced on your lap.

The problem is that sleeper cabins are not hotel rooms (which is what everyone is used to now), and never will be. You need to travel in a cabin at least once in order to know the drill and what to expect. The problem is many moan and complain of this first learning experience of something quite alien to them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is that sleeper cabins are not hotel rooms (which is what everyone is used to now), and never will be. You need to travel in a cabin at least once in order to know the drill and what to expect. The problem is many moan and complain of this first learning experience of something quite alien to them.

Is it, though? There are plenty of small-room hotels these days which are comparable, and the old CS managed to have a shelf. We should not be excusing poor design.

 

[Sleepy]

Perhaps the Night Riviera and CS should be part of one franchise? There might be a developing market for other sleeper services too.

Absolutely not. The Night Riv. should not be seperate from GWR services due to economy of scale, ticket interavailabilty (eg. through Advance Sleeper tickets to branch lines would soon disappear) and the ease of travel arrangements when it goes pear shaped (eg. LNER refusal to convey stranded passengers from Edinburgh recently).

 

[47271]

Is it, though? There are plenty of small-room hotels these days which are comparable, and the old CS managed to have a shelf. We should not be excusing poor design.

Every regular user I know, and those known to those I know, agrees that cabin design and build quality is a retrograde step on the mk3.

That's not to say that there aren't things that are better, like the ensuite and the slightly longer bed, and everyone agrees that they're sleeping better. But if we're talking about where to put your suitcase, your drink or your washbag, or have your breakfast and use the basin at the same time, it does appear to have been designed with little reference to those who had used the old trains for all those years.

Possibly the most striking (but luckily easily fixed) example of this was the coat hanger standoff. It took a few months of operation and complaints before CS accepted that people need coat hangers when they go to bed. The absence was challenged at a launch event last April and apparently hangers were excluded from the original design because they rattle when the train moves, and I'm sure they do on a test track. They don't rattle when you put your clothes on them, which I believe is something that most actual passengers do.

 

[leightonbd]

I’m not at all surprised about the carpet stains, having read this recent review:

“Worst of all, there’s no shelf next to the head of the bed. So where are you supposed to put your book, your reading glasses or a glass of water? Am I the only passenger who travels with these things? Worst of all, nowhere to put your boiling hot cup of instant coffee in the morning! As a result, trying to balance it on my lap while i opened my milk satchet, I spilled it! It went straight through the duvet and my nightdress and burnt the top layer of skin off my inner thigh.”

This just seems a lack of thought in design.

The reviewer obviously didn’t consider moving the pillow to the other end of the bed. Then you can use the table which pulls out from under the sink. Take control!

 

[Meerkat]

I disagree about the marketing - the prices have to be high and that drives the market it’s pitched at.
Would GWR have any choice other than CAF? They have a product ready to go - finding someone else to design new carriages would surely be far more expensive than trying to fix the fit out issues on the CS stock for a Mk5.1