Caledonian Sleeper

[Scotrail84]

27th Dec All Highlander services cancelled due to Haymarket East Jn renewals. 1C11/1B26 will run but via the sub line and will be 73 hauled.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C70059/2019-12-27/detailed


https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C70054/2019-12-28/detailed

 

[Peter Sarf]

150xx are the brake coach and include the guards accommodation as well as the seats. They are also crucial to the way the TCMS works. They are a necessity - the trains (incl portions after the splits) cannot run without one - which is why there is a spare one.

In a similar vein, the 152xx are more of a necessity than the 153xx - and are fewer in number to start with, so if there's going to be an imbalance, it's better to have one more 152xx than an extra 153xx. To explain that a bit better, you cannot run ABD/FTW without 2x PRMs - as when the split happens a PRM is required in each portion. However, if for whatever reason an Inverness or Edinburgh portion had to run with a Unit with 2x PRMs in (vice the usual 1x PRM) it wouldn't be the end of the world - couple less rooms in the PRM coach and some lucky guests might get bumped up to the Caledonian Double FOC...

The fleet make up is pretty straightforward: 9 "Units" = 5 with 2x PRM; 4 with 1x PRM; an additional 1500x + 151xx for the Fort William Day coaches and an extra 150xx (seats/brake) being the most crucial type of coach in the fleet. When you look at it like that it's a sensible make up (within the boundaries of a 75 coach fleet).

The 153xx/152xx just need a bit of fleet management around the units depending on what's getting swapped out for maintenance. Polmadie is indeed the main maintenance base and where the Units get swapped out and hence where the "spare" (or under maintenance) Unit will be.

Units needing to be swapped out will happen on whatever day it falls for the switch to happen - it's already been done a few times and isn't that challenging to do on a weekday. The Unit going out of service gets parked up in the morning and the "new" one (already ready for action at the depot) gets used for that night's service. The only additional activity that may be required may be to shunt out a 153xx from the 'old' Unit and put on the end of the "new" Unit to make up to 7x 153xx if the situation noted above is happening.

The full sets swap over at Wembley every day, so each unit passes through Polmadie every four working days in the normal course of events.

2x PRM Unit cycle: Polmadie - 1M11 (GLC portion) - Wembley - 1A25/1Y11 - Aberdeen and Fort William - 1B16/1B01 - Wembley - 1S26 - back to Polmadie.

1x PRM Unit cycle: Polmadie - 1C11/1M11 (EDB portion) - Wembley - 1S25 - Inverness - 1M16 - Wembley - 1S26/1B26 (EDB portion) - back to Polmadie.

Thanks @TimboM that all makes sense. Suffice to say the 153xx coaches must be worked that little bit harder than the other coaches. I now understand how critical the 150xx coach is !.

One question - How do the FortWilliam-Edinburgh seated coaches (150xx & 151xx) get swapped ?.
Would Polmadie send out to Edinburgh the replacement two coaches for exchange at Edinburgh in the wee hours ?.
I suppose an easier route to achieve this is for the two seated coaches to end up staying on the Highlander and what was on the main leg of the Highlander to end up on the FortWilliam-Edinburgh shuttle. I understand the shunting at Edinburgh for the North bound highlander is rather tight so it would have to happen at Edinburgh when all three portions are arriving at Edinburgh to form up for onward travel South. Then when Wembley sends them back on the Lowlander Polmadie gets em !. Or is that too complicated !.

 

[Far north 37]

Thanks @TimboM that all makes sense. Suffice to say the 153xx coaches must be worked that little bit harder than the other coaches. I now understand how critical the 150xx coach is !.

One question - How do the FortWilliam-Edinburgh seated coaches (150xx & 151xx) get swapped ?.
Would Polmadie send out to Edinburgh the replacement two coaches for exchange at Edinburgh in the wee hours ?.
I suppose an easier route to achieve this is for the two seated coaches to end up staying on the Highlander and what was on the main leg of the Highlander to end up on the FortWilliam-Edinburgh shuttle. I understand the shunting at Edinburgh for the North bound highlander is rather tight so it would have to happen at Edinburgh when all three portions are arriving at Edinburgh to form up for onward travel South. Then when Wembley sends them back on the Lowlander Polmadie gets em !. Or is that too complicated !.

They wouldnt fit on the lowlander portion already full platform at euston as it is.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They wouldnt fit on the lowlander portion already full platform at euston as it is.

No, I mean, the FortWilliam seated coaches come South on the Highlander and the normal ex Aberdeen 150xx and 151xx are left at Edinburgh in the wee hours instead. Effectively the seated passengers from Aberdeen have to get off and walk to join the Seated passengers from FortWilliam in their coach(es). That's only when a swap is required mind you. That's my theory.

 

[JonathanH]

No, I mean, the FortWilliam seated coaches come South on the Highlander and the normal ex Aberdeen 150xx and 151xx are left at Edinburgh in the wee hours instead. Effectively the seated passengers from Aberdeen have to get off and walk to join the Seated passengers from FortWilliam in their coach(es). That's only when a swap is required mind you. That's my theory.

No, that's not possible. The Fort William 151xx and 150xx coach are in the wrong order relative to the 151xx and 150xx coaches on the Aberdeen portion.

 

[Peter Sarf]

No, that's not possible. The Fort William 151xx and 150xx coach are in the wrong order relative to the 151xx and 150xx coaches on the Aberdeen portion.

Well I presume it is possible with a fair amount of shunting. Question is does the service have time for that much shunting on the Southbound pass through Edinburgh. I ruled out the Northbound as I know the time for shunting the Northbound leg is rather too tight for the normal 3-way split let alone any clever tweaks of the formation.

Anyway someone will be able to answer if, instead, Polmadie sends a spare pair to Edinburgh for a swap in the wee hours.

I cannot see another way of achieving it.

 

[haggishunter]

If the Ft Wm seated coach was the one to go through to / from London pretty sure demand would rise. However that wouldn’t be good for local users on the West Highland Line as the seated coach also serves as a ‘day’ train and particularly the Southbound is used as such. I’ve done it myself a few times since the new stock came in.

Ideally could do with a dedicated day coach in addition to the seated sleeper, so better able to cope with journeys at short notice and short distances. Last couple of times on the evening Northbound ScotRail service there were large groups asking the guard to try and communicate with CS with respect to transferring the group from Corrour to Tulloch or Ft WM respectively. Assumed they stayed at the Loch Ossian hostel.

 

[JonathanH]

If the Ft Wm seated coach was the one to go through to / from London pretty sure demand would rise. However that wouldn’t be good for local users on the West Highland Line as the seated coach also serves as a ‘day’ train and particularly the Southbound is used as such. I’ve done it myself a few times since the new stock came in.

Year round demand for seats to destinations on the Aberdeen route is greater. It would be a bold move to cut off that demand by making passengers change trains while risking the increase in through passengers from the Fort William line, particularly since the ticket price (and therefore revenue) doesn't differ between the two routes.

Tell me how it would be in Caledonian Sleeper's interest to run the seats through to Fort William.

As a tenuous justification, I would argue that passengers on the Fort William route are more able to withstand a change at Edinburgh in the middle of the night because those travelling the whole distance have an extra two hours on the train to catch up on sleep relative to those travelling to Aberdeen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ideally could do with a dedicated day coach in addition to the seated sleeper, so better able to cope with journeys at short notice and short distances. Last couple of times on the evening Northbound ScotRail service there were large groups asking the guard to try and communicate with CS with respect to transferring the group from Corrour to Tulloch or Ft WM respectively. Assumed they stayed at the Loch Ossian hostel.

I completely agree. The TPE order would have been a good time to add on a TPE-style Mk5a TSO with 2+2 seating for the FW set, then the day traffic could have been kept totally separate. It could even then have been put in the timetable as a ScotRail service.

 

[Chrism20]

No, I mean, the FortWilliam seated coaches come South on the Highlander and the normal ex Aberdeen 150xx and 151xx are left at Edinburgh in the wee hours instead. Effectively the seated passengers from Aberdeen have to get off and walk to join the Seated passengers from FortWilliam in their coach(es). That's only when a swap is required mind you. That's my theory.

I'd imagine it would be a straight swap in the middle of the night between Southbound and Northbound services if it is required. There is no point in inconveniencing the Aberdeen passengers and screwing up the formations and adding potential delays to the shunt.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'd imagine it would be a straight swap in the middle of the night between Southbound and Northbound services if it is required. There is no point in inconveniencing the Aberdeen passengers and screwing up the formations and adding potential delays to the shunt.

Yes that is becoming my favoured theory. Only downside that originally occurred to me is that it requires extra workings between Polmadie and Edinburgh. BUT, thinking about it now, the two new day coaches could leave Polmadie with the Edinburgh 8 car set in the afternoon. They then get left in Edinburgh until the wee hours for the swap to happen. Now that I understand that the two halves of the Lowlander spend the day at Polmadie that return trip must be being being made six times a week anyway .

 

[Chrism20]

Yes that is becoming my favoured theory. Only downside that originally occurred to me is that it requires extra workings between Polmadie and Edinburgh. BUT, thinking about it now, the two new day coaches could leave Polmadie with the Edinburgh 8 car set in the afternoon. They then get left in Edinburgh until the wee hours for the swap to happen. Now that I understand that the two halves of the Lowlander spend the day at Polmadie that return trip must be being being made six times a week anyway .

There is also the option of the loco that takes the Edinburgh portion to Carstairs heading off to Polmadie, pick up the two FW coaches and taking them to Edinburgh before heading back to Carstairs for the morning Northbound

 

[JonathanH]

Yes that is becoming my favoured theory. Only downside that originally occurred to me is that it requires extra workings between Polmadie and Edinburgh. BUT, thinking about it now, the two new day coaches could leave Polmadie with the Edinburgh 8 car set in the afternoon. They then get left in Edinburgh until the wee hours for the swap to happen. Now that I understand that the two halves of the Lowlander spend the day at Polmadie that return trip must be being being made six times a week anyway .

The empty coaching stock for the Edinburgh sleeper doesn't run in the afternoon - try 5C11 2044 Polmadie Car M.D. to Edinburgh (arrive 2155) - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G65096/2019-12-02/detailed - barely enough time to do its own shunting / run-round before it needs to be on the London end, let alone bring an extra coach across and put it in a siding.

The Fort William changeover doesn't happen very often. If it does need to happen, they can run a specific empty coaching stock working to do it.

 

[Bill57p9]

The Fort William changeover doesn't happen very often. If it does need to happen, they can run a specific empty coaching stock working to do it.

Usually in the early hours of Saturday mornings. The replacement coaches leave Polmadie around 0015 as 5C01 & arrive Edinburgh 0130. The relived stock returns around 0330 as 5B11. It's scheduled to be hauled by an electric loco so I guess they usually use the 92 used to haul the Glasgow empty stock.

 

[Furrball]

This is a new one on me. Late leaving Aberdeen so skipping stops and passengers being advised to travel via XC service or taxi to Edinburgh

Caledonian Sleeper

@CalSleeper

Service Update: Due to an earlier points failure, The Highlander departed Aberdeen 68 minutes late. We ask guests at KIRKCALDY to use the 23:24 Cross Country service to Edinburgh, and join the Sleeper there. Ticket acceptance is in place.

Caledonian Sleeper

@CalSleeper

Hi Cheryl, a taxi will be at Leuchars to take you to Dundee, where you'll meet the Sleeper. The taxi is booked for 23:20, please look out for Sleeper staff at the station for assistance. Mark

Twitter Thread

https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1201242443171188736?s=20

 

[gray1404]

They should have arranged a taxi for the passenger who intended boarding at Crewe when they cancelled the other night, or at least given him the option. Either that or, assuming the rail replacement bus was going up the M6, it is not exactly impossible for the bus to come off the M6 to make a call at Crewe.

 

[Furrball]

I would not imagine that there are a lot of passengers boarding at Kirkcaldy but at 22:59 tweeting that there is acceptance on the 23:24 service - which is 32 mins EARLIER than the planned departure time for the sleeper...

Once again not exactly offering the service they are advertising.

What would happen with a passenger at an intermediate station that had not been aware of disruption and non-stopping of service?

 

[Crepello]

This thread gives a shocking insight into the what working life must be like for a CS customer service rep - no matter what contingency arrangements they've the time and resources to put in place, it will never be enough for some habitual whiners. And once again, the root cause is wholly outside the train operator's control.

 

[Furrball]

Well the Lowlander ex Glasgow appears to have ground to a halt at Motherwell

@CalSleeper
any idea why the Gla to Eus sleeper has paused at Motherwell?


@CalSleeper
Replying to
@JohnInnes
Hi John, crew are investigating reports of a noise from a section of the train. I'm told you'll be underway shortly, I'm sorry for the wait. Mark

https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1201292612382208000?s=20

 

[Furrball]

This thread gives a shocking insight into the what working life must be like for a CS customer service rep - no matter what contingency arrangements they've the time and resources to put in place, it will never be enough for some habitual whiners. And once again, the root cause is wholly outside the train operator's control.

Caledonian Sleeper have made a very large rod for their own back.

Continual late boarding
Reservation issues
Lack of water
Lack of food
General failure to offer service advertised
Passengers being told to get to Euston from Crewe as replacement road service will not be calling there

When things work well 90% of the time no one really bats an eyelid when things go a bit Pete Tong

When the odds are stacked against the passenger getting the service they paid for then I am afraid as a company you are going to get heavily scrutinised

 

[JonathanH]

Well the Lowlander ex Glasgow appears to have ground to a halt at Motherwell

https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1201292612382208000?s=20

79 minutes late - arrival time in London will depend on whether the Trent Valley is open by the time it gets to Stafford.

 

[TimboM]

Usually in the early hours of Saturday mornings. The replacement coaches leave Polmadie around 0015 as 5C01 & arrive Edinburgh 0130. The relived stock returns around 0330 as 5B11. It's scheduled to be hauled by an electric loco so I guess they usually use the 92 used to haul the Glasgow empty stock.

After all that speculation and theories is the correct and simple answer...!

The Glasgow ECS loco runs back to Polmadie after 1M11 departs, takes the two "new coaches" across as 5C01 and brings the two to be swapped out back to Polmadie as 5B11, all in good time to then work the more ECS draw-back.

The paths are in the WTT early hours of Sat am as Bill57p9 says, although can be put in as vSTPs on other nights if a swap is needed.

Worth noting the GLC ECS loco is typically running across to Edinburgh now direct from GLC after 1M11 departs to provide cover for the 1M16 loco (as it has done tonight - 0C11 path). It then runs back in the early hours of the morning as 0S27 to Polmadie ready to work the morning ECS. So the 92 for the Glasgow empties is running across to Edinburgh and back most nights whether it's swapping over Fort Bill coaches or not.

 

[TimboM]

79 minutes late - arrival time in London will depend on whether the Trent Valley is open by the time it gets to Stafford.

Don't forget it's Sunday night, so there's also the Brucey Bonus 30 min engineering allowance between Carstairs and Carlisle which should take a big chunk out of that. The Lowlander can usually make at least an hour up from Carstairs (without the 30 mins) so should be OK.

Might be a knock on delay of 30 mins or so to 1S26 leaving Preston due to the inbound driver being late on 1M11, but again the engineering allowance should sort that out.

The engineering allowance might also bail out the Up Highlander - the Aberdeen is now "only" 44 mins late and with the potential 30 mins "freebie" it's in with a fighting chance of being on time or thereabouts by Crewe (which it needs to be really if it's to have a decent chance of making it to London on time).

It'll be important that the shunts at Edinburgh and Carstairs go OK - not sure everything is going quite to plan at the moment with the 1C11/1M11 Carstairs join up...

 

[side effect]

1m16 11min late
1m11 130 late
1s26 46 late

 

[Norther Monkey]

150xx are the brake coach and include the guards accommodation as well as the seats. They are also crucial to the way the TCMS works. They are a necessity - the trains (incl portions after the splits) cannot run without one - which is why there is a spare one.

I do wonder whether the advantages brought by some of the technology actually outweigh the restrictions they introduce.

For example, the Dellners doubtless bring some ease in the shunting arrangements (despite still seemingly needing a 'man on the track') but bring significant limitations in rescuing failed services, choice of traction etc.

Similarly the TCMS doubtless has some useful functions but where as before (in extremis) 'any old' spare brake coach could be swapped in for a faulty seated coach and the service at least kept running (although the Dellners are again an issue).

I'm nothing more than an interested user so have doubtless misunderstood or missed things but - purely out of interest - others' thoughts would be interesting.

 

[Essexman]

I would not imagine that there are a lot of passengers boarding at Kirkcaldy but at 22:59 tweeting that there is acceptance on the 23:24 service - which is 32 mins EARLIER than the planned departure time for the sleeper...

Once again not exactly offering the service they are advertising.

What would happen with a passenger at an intermediate station that had not been aware of disruption and non-stopping of service?

I would imagine that CS will have called Kirkcaldy passengers (not likely to be many) so hopefully they'll have been able to get to the station for the earlier train. I assume that the stop was missed to save time but maybe if they couldn't contact passengers they'd have stopped anyway.

 

[6Z09]

I do wonder whether the advantages brought by some of the technology actually outweigh the restrictions they introduce.

For example, the Dellners doubtless bring some ease in the shunting arrangements (despite still seemingly needing a 'man on the track') but bring significant limitations in rescuing failed services, choice of traction etc.

Similarly the TCMS doubtless has some useful functions but where as before (in extremis) 'any old' spare brake coach could be swapped in for a faulty seated coach and the service at least kept running (although the Dellners are again an issue).

I'm nothing more than an interested user so have doubtless misunderstood or missed things but - purely out of interest - others' thoughts would be interesting.

The dellners bring no ease at all , require to be lifted/lowered on the locos for every couple/uncouple,add in extend/retract loco buffers, brake pipes plus jumber lead!
More labour intensive than the old stock.

 

[marks87]

I do wonder whether the advantages brought by some of the technology actually outweigh the restrictions they introduce.

For example, the Dellners doubtless bring some ease in the shunting arrangements (despite still seemingly needing a 'man on the track') but bring significant limitations in rescuing failed services, choice of traction etc.

Unless the loco up front physically can't move, a failed service can be moved by anything with a drawhook (I forgot that this would have been an option for moving the ECS last week when the Glasgow portion was started from Motherwell, had any other loco been available).

The choice of Dellners is partly because they require less of a bump when coupling at Edinburgh/Carstairs.

If you watch this video from the final night of the Mk3s on the Southbound lowlander, you can see the rather violent jolt (twice) by watching the passenger in the seated coach (from 9:20).

The Dellners are much smoother and need to only lightly come into contact with each other to engage.

 

[JModulo]

Good to see the mk5s are continuing to fall apart on a nightly basis after last night.

 

[185143]

Should that door have been open during the coupling procedure?