Caledonian Sleeper to mainland Europe?

[marshlinker]

dont think you even need 300km/h, in theory a 250km/h Stadler SMILE made too UK specs could work for way less
that or a tack on order too the HS2 fleet

What's the highest speed sleeper currently in Europe? Can't help but feel the design for 170 mph in beds going to be quite difficult.

 

[JamesT]

dont think you even need 300km/h, in theory a 250km/h Stadler SMILE made too UK specs could work for way less
that or a tack on order too the HS2 fleet

Isn’t the suggestion to a 300km/h sleeper in order to get onto LGV Nord? Do the French allow rolling stock similar to a SMILE on their LGVs?

 

[HSTEd]

dont think you even need 300km/h, in theory a 250km/h Stadler SMILE made too UK specs could work for way less
that or a tack on order too the HS2 fleet

The limiting factor is probably getting an early morning path into Gare du Nord along the LGV Nord.

I don't think anything less than 300km/h will suffice in that regard.
Even 250km/h will eat several paths en route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2026 ==

What's the highest speed sleeper currently in Europe? Can't help but feel the design for 170 mph in beds going to be quite difficult.

230km/h on an OBB Nightjet, I think.

 

[marshlinker]

The limiting factor is probably getting an early morning path into Gare du Nord along the LGV Nord.

Assuming the HSTEd Euro sleeper 300 stock has tilt. It would be 4hrs 26 to Willesden from Glasgow 30 mins from Willesden to the St Pancras tunnels then 2hr 18 to Paris so about 8.20 arrival from a midnight departure. Ignores niceties like pathing allowances in London and Edinburgh portions.

 

[30907]

The limiting factor is probably getting an early morning path into Gare du Nord along the LGV Nord.

The first two Paris arrivals appear to be 0747 (M-Th) and 0809. So the hypothetical sleeper could arrive at 0743, which is a bit early given the clock change but not bad. A 10-hour journey (non-tilt, please, and 200km/h!) would therefore leave Edinburgh around 2100 which is reasonable. (in practice you might need extra time - at the very least for thex2-track WCML and running via Kensington and Tonbridge).

Not suggesting it's viable, of course!

 

[Bald Rick]

A 10-hour journey (non-tilt, please, and 200km/h!) would therefore leave Edinburgh around 2100 which is reasonable. (in practice you might need extra time - at the very least for thex2-track WCML and running via Kensington and Tonbridge).

It’s not going to be 10 hours non tilt. At that time of night with timetable allowances for engineering works etc, it will be at least 6 hours to London. Then even if it can get to HS1 (which will not be practical for many days), it would be another hour to the tunnel, and then allowing for engineering work taking an interval out and flighting through the tunnel another hour. Even then, LGV Nord doesn’t open until 0600, and as has been said you need to be at 300km/h to fit on it anyway. So it will be route classique, and three hours from Frethun.

 

[Falcon1200]

Any new proposal would need to sort out how Border Controls would be handled before anything else.

Which would mean the train could only possibly call at a very limited number of stations, reducing its viability even further (although IMHO this is non-existent anyway). But talk of high-speed tilting sleeper stock is at least very interesting!

 

[HSTEd]

Wanting tilting rolling stock might be asking for a bit much, but I think 300km/h capability is essential. As far as I know the only tilting 300km/h rolling stock available is a handful of Talgo products and some very modern Japanese Shinkansen sets which only manage ~1.5 degrees of tilt.


EDIT: I suppose if you wanted to reduce ongoing staff costs, you could put stations at locations that already have immigration and security staff on site as a matter of course.... like Airports.

 

[mike57]

Wanting tilting rolling stock might be asking for a bit much,

And would you want tilting on a sleeper? As long as you can get from start to end in maybe 10 hours you dont need to save any more time. Thinking 9pm departure, 7am arrival.

 

[cf111]

I'm not convinced there is the demand. The Scottish and British governments have offered to put up some funding to revive the Rosyth-Europe (Dunkirk I think is the aim?) ferry route, but there's nothing concrete agreed there with either DFDS or another operator. That might have a chance at success if the freight traffic is there, the train can't provide that.

 

[30907]

It’s not going to be 10 hours non tilt.

I agree that's optimistic.

So it will be route classique, and three hours from Frethun.

Fortunately you then don't have to make Paris for 0745. 0910 would be fitting for those who remember the last cross-channel sleeper, and 12hr means 20.00 from Waverley

Still highly unlikely!

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not convinced there is the demand.

You don’t need to be convinced, as there definitely isn’t!

 

[ShadowKnight]

I think you'd have more luck with an entirely bespoke 300km/h 400m sleeper EMU. Obviously it would cost a fortune to build such a thing, but all the infrastructure set up required to even attempt this concept would probably make that look positively reasonable!

Try and wrangle the first slot on LGV Nord in the morning.

So convert some class 374s into sleeper stock? It seems like a lower risk proposition for an initial trial service as Eurostar will be getting rid of them and they have already been tested to travel most of the way up GB to Scotland

 

[zwk500]

So convert some class 374s into sleeper stock? It seems like a lower risk proposition for an initial trial service as Eurostar will be getting rid of them and they have already been tested to travel most of the way up GB to Scotland

I think you mean a Class 373. The Class 374 wouldn't get beyond the platforms at Camden Road without a very big gouge about 915mm above the rail...

 

[ShadowKnight]

I think you mean a Class 373. The Class 374 wouldn't get beyond the platforms at Camden Road without a very big gouge about 915mm above the rail...

Good catch.

 

[Bald Rick]

So convert some class 374s into sleeper stock? It seems like a lower risk proposition for an initial trial service as Eurostar will be getting rid of them and they have already been tested to travel most of the way up GB to Scotland

Bit in bold - Not the 373s that eurostar use, though. Besides, they are well over 30 now. Also, not cleared on the WCML now.

 

[popeter45]

did a NoL set ever reach Scotland?, they did the white rose but not sure if they ever got further than the midlands?
a NoL would make more sense as they are shorter and have been in storage since 2014

 

[Falcon1200]

did a NoL set ever reach Scotland?, they did the white rose but not sure if they ever got further than the midlands?

There was a test run, diesel-loco hauled not under own power, to Glasgow Central one evening. I was late shift so went to see the move, it was planned but the length of the set plus the locos had not been taken into account resulting in disruption and delay.