Caledonian Sleeper ticket question

[yorkie]

LU recieve a huge sum of money for cross-London transfers which apparently is a fixed yearly rate (so I'm told) yet they still wrongly persecute individual customers for extra cash.

It's an internal railway contractual matter and is of no concern to the customer. LU should treat people with respect and if they're unhappy that a few more people are using the service than the £millions (I'm sure it'll be milions!) that they get and want a few quid extra off the TOCs then they need to have that discussion with the TOCs.

 

[paul1609]

Sorry but in this case I think your wrong and you are letting your own personal feelings affect your judgement. That is obviously up to you but I dont feel you should be giving people advice based on your own thoughts.

This is not a cross London transfer at all as far as this ticket is concerned it started according to the op at one of London Undergrounds own stations. There is a laid down proceedure for a nationalrail TOC to issue a ticket valid from these ie from London U1.
If Scotrail are issuing a ticket from London Terminals LUL are not receiving any income at all.

It is not an internal contractual matter as London Underground are not part of NationalRail (they have their own t& c of travel) and the poster has not entered into any contract with Transport for London.

I believe that Scotrail are issuing the wrong tickets and it is a matter from them to sort!

 

[yorkie]

But he says he entered LU at Liverpool Street. Liverpool Street to Euston Square is a valid cross-London transfer by any definition.

I'm told that LU do not receive a percentage of each cross-London ticket but a lump sum instead. Is this not correct? Not that it really matters to this issue.

 

[glynn80]

This is not a cross London transfer at all as far as this ticket is concerned it started according to the op at one of London Undergrounds own stations. There is a laid down proceedure for a nationalrail TOC to issue a ticket valid from these ie from London U1.
If Scotrail are issuing a ticket from London Terminals LUL are not receiving any income at all.

They definitely receive revenue on these tickets, it is a special procedure set up by FSR with LUL. They also allow you to complete your journey with LUL if you arrive into Euston the next morning (usually ceases validity on LUL at 0429). If they were to issue tickets to London U1 these would still cease validity at 0429 and thus the procedure is as it stands.

 

[paul1609]

As I understand it a cross london journey for the purpose of the arrangement is defined as a journey between 2 nationalrail stations excluding London Terminals. So a Clapham Junction to Glasgow ticket is deemed cross london and this is denoted by the use of the malteese cross. TFL receive a fixed payment for this based on accounting records for previous years. Where the Journey commences at a London Terminal which is not valid for travel to the destination the ticket will be issued from London U1 or zone 1 to the destination and TFL receives revenue from this on a per ticket basis as part of the ORCATs arrangement.

The fact that Scotrail are advertising this as zone 1 and 2 travelcard suggests to me they are issuing the wrong tickets.

 

[John @ home]

As I understand it a cross london journey for the purpose of the arrangement is defined as a journey between 2 nationalrail stations excluding London Terminals.

No. http://www.scotrail.co.uk/caledonian.../business.html says:
"Caledonian Sleeper First Class Anytime tickets now include a complimentary refreshment voucher for the Lounge Car plus a London Underground Zone 1 & 2 pass within the current price. Single ticket journey holders receive a £2.50 refreshment voucher and Return ticket holders receive a £5 refreshment voucher. Please note, refreshment vouchers and London Underground passes are not available when your purchase this ticket online"

So what is promised is a single ticket in each direction between Euston (but not, it seems, Euston Square) and any other Underground Zone 1 or 2 station.

The fact that Scotrail are advertising this as zone 1 and 2 travelcard suggests to me they are issuing the wrong tickets.

Scotrail are not advertising this as a zone 1 and 2 travelcard. It was the OP who introduced the word travelcard, not Scotrail. In a later contribution (10th March 2009, 23:07) he wrote: It seems I did misread zone 1&2 pass as travelcard

But this thread has highlighted that there are difficulties in delivering Scotrail's promise. It seems that the ticket is coded or issued in a particular way. For southbound journeys, glynn80 makes a good point about the need for the ticket to be accepted at both Euston and the other Undergound station on the day after it would normally have expired.

John

 

[gpb_croppers63]

Thanks for all the different opinions. They're all very interesting. To be honest, I'm not sure if the wrong tickets are being issued or whether they are only valid to Euston and not Euston Square. This would make no sense as Scotrail advertise a "Zone 1 & 2 Pass" and say nothing about having to use it to Euston itself. I'll let you all know what they say in their reply to my letter.

 

[Sleepy]

I think Paul 1609 is correct about Scotrail issuing wrong ticket as Advantix says Zone 12 (0790) - Inverness is same price as London Terminals - Inverness both route Cal Sleeper. Would the LU gates at LST operate for any ticket with London Terminals on as Stratford - LST is classed as a joint route with NXEA for ticket purposes, LU thinking being you would be stopped at the exit LU station barrier as the op was ?

 

[EltonRoad]

Hi, thought I'd resurrect this thread as I've just bought two Sleeper 1st Singles, one from London to Fort William and one back again.

The ScotRail web site states this:

"Caledonian Sleeper First Single tickets include a complimentary refreshment voucher for the Lounge Car plus a London Underground Zone 1 & 2 pass within the current price. Single ticket journey holders receive a £2.50 refreshment voucher. We regret that Fast Ticket Machines are unable to issue refreshment vouchers with our First Class ticket range."

Firstly, the point about Fast Ticket machines being unable to issue refreshment vouchers is incorrect. I booked my tickets online and collected them from the Fast Ticket machine at Cambridge. For each single ticket I was issued with 3 tickets - 1) a Sleeper 1st single from "London Terminals" (no maltese cross) to Fort William Route Cal Sleeper (and the same in reverse for the return journey - again, no maltese cross); 2) a reservation coupon showing the berth and 3) a "Cal Slpr" voucher for £2.50.

What I would like to know is, will my ticket operate the London Underground barriers? I'm starting my journey in Cambridge and want to cross from Kings Cross to Euston.

Maybe I should email ScotRail?

 

[stut]

To be honest, for King's Cross to Euston, you probably walk as far to/from the platforms as you would to walk directly from one station to the other! It shouldn't take you any more than 10 minutes to walk, straight along the Euston Road.

 

[paul1609]

Im told by a reliable source (but have yet to try it myself) that to get the free London Pass on sleeper tickets from the Scotrail website you have to enter any London NR station within zones 1 and 2 (except Euston or London (any))or London Zone 1 or London Zone 2.
Scotrail then sell you a ticket from Zone 12 to Fort William at the same price as one from London Terminals.
A London Terminals ticket is not valid On LU and you could be liable to a penalty fare. Id agree with stut that you'd be better off walking in this case.

 

[glynn80]

Im told by a reliable source (but have yet to try it myself) that to get the free London Pass on sleeper tickets from the Scotrail website you have to enter any London NR station within zones 1 and 2 (except Euston or London (any))or London Zone 1 or London Zone 2.
Scotrail then sell you a ticket from Zone 12 to Fort William at the same price as one from London Terminals.
A London Terminals ticket is not valid On LU and you could be liable to a penalty fare. Id agree with stut that you'd be better off walking in this case.

This is not the case, there is an easement in the routeing guide which permits a Cross London transfer at the beggining of any sleeper journey from Euston.

020010 Passengers using the sleeper northbound from Euston may start their journey with a cross London service.

A London Terminals ticket for use on the Caledonian Sleeper is thus valid from Kings Cross to Euston on both the Northern or Victoria lines.

How useful this is to the OP is debatable, walking it is probably going to be the easiest option especially if the weather is as beautiful as it is currently.

 

[EltonRoad]

Useful info - thanks.

I just went back to the ScotRail web site and tried booking a ticket from London Kings Cross to Fort William, and indeed you get a single offered for the same price. It also works for London Zone 1.

Useful info about the routeing guide easement, but how many LU staff know about this? Presumably the tickets won't open the barriers as there's no maltese cross symbol.

Walking does indeed sound an attractive option, but then it may depend how much luggage I've got ..

 

[First class]

I think it is quite clear that a London Terminals ticket technically isn't valid on LU, unless the +CAL SLEEPER route is used.

I would advise that people receiving route CAL SLEEPER tickets excess their route up to +CAL SLEEPER at no extra cost.

 

[EltonRoad]

Thinking about it - if you buy a Sleeper ticket online from London Kings Cross to Fort William, you'll probably still receive one from London Terminals. I say this because I specified Euston when booking and ended up with Terminals. Chances are that it still wouldn't be "+".

So I suggest specifying London Zone 1 as the origin / destination.

Good idea to excess up to "+" for £0, presumably any ticket office can do this?

I'm going to email ScotRail anyway, will post their reply.

 

[djw1981]

Could you not have bought one ticket from your origination to Fort Bill instead of splitting?

 

[clagmonster]

There isn't a through Cambridge-Fort Bill route Caledonian sleeper fare.
I would also advice walking along Euston Rd. With luggage, rather than going up and down escalators, you are walking on the level. You are probably walking a shorter distance than you would be down to the LUL platform at Kings Cross and back up a Euston.
Incidentally, I have just looked in Avantix, and tickets from zone U12* Londn are the same price as those from London terminals, and also are route +Cal Sleeper, rather than just Cal sleeper. If you want to use the Underground, to avoid hassle, I would advice you to go to a staffed booking office, and "purchase" an overdistance excess from zone U12* for £0.00.

 

[mathmo]

I've walked Kings Cross - Euston and got the Underground several times, with luggage each time. Both have their advantages. If your luggage is heavy and doesn't have wheels then the Underground is better simply because you don't have to carry it so far - I almost killed myself lugging a ridiculously heavy bag along Euston Road once. But if your luggage can be wheeled and it isn't a busy time of day (which it won't be if you're getting the sleeper) then a walk along Euston Road will be less effort than dragging your bags up and down at least two escalators at each end. Just be warned that the way into Euston is really not as obvious as it should be!

 

[EltonRoad]

Quote Roueting Guide Easement 020010:

"Passengers using the sleeper northbound from Euston may start their journey with a cross London service."

Strange, then, that there isn't a similar easement in the southbound direction. Most of the easements are reversible, but apparently not this one!

(To be frank - I don't really care whether I end up walking or taking the Underground, I'm really only interested in whether I'm getting what I paid for!)

 

[EltonRoad]

To continue this saga of whether Sleeper 1st Advance singles allow travel on the Underground:

I went to Cambridge Travel Centre today and tried to get my London Terminals to Fort William ticket, and the one vice-versa, excessed up to a Zone U12* Lndn for £0. Unfortunately the system wouldn't let them do it.

They told me that if I had bought the ticket from them they'd have issued a Zone U12 to Fort William and not a London Terminals to Fort William. However since the origin is Zone U12 that made it an underground ticket and that's why the system wouldn't let them excess it up. That also applied in the opposite direction. Sounded a bit odd, but there's no denying the system wouldn't let them do it.

They advised me to contact ScotRail, whose error it is, apparently, for selling me a London Terminals ticket when they should have sold it as Zone U12.

I have emailed ScotRail but whether I'll get a reply before my departure date of this Sunday remains to be seen!

 

[djw1981]

Did you tell FSR tele/websales that you wanted to start in Cambridge? If not then you won;t get the U12 because they will assume youa re starting in London.

 

[First class]

I know for a fact you can at least do it for one the legs. I did it less than a month where I changed an Inverness-London Terminals route Cal Sleeper only ticket into a Aberdeen-Zone U12 route +Cal Sleeper ticket.

 

[Olympian]

Im told by a reliable source (but have yet to try it myself) that to get the free London Pass on sleeper tickets from the Scotrail website you have to enter any London NR station within zones 1 and 2 (except Euston or London (any))or London Zone 1 or London Zone 2.
Scotrail then sell you a ticket from Zone 12 to Fort William at the same price as one from London Terminals.

That's exactly what I've done for tonight, but through the Virgin Trains website - I booked London Paddington to Elgin (using the sleeper from Euston to Inverness) and got a Sleeper 1st Single from "U12 LONDN" to Elgin and it let me onto the Undergound at Paddington and out again at Euston Square no bother.

I also got my £2.50 refreshment voucher out of the fast ticket machine having bought my tickets online, also contrary to what Scotrail's website says. It appears that the website information is now out of date in respect of both underground travel and refreshment vouchers.

 

[yorkie]

If the ticket says London Terminals it won't let you through and LU barrier staff are told to refuse them, they are not told about easements. So you will encounter problems if trying to use LU.

As for splitting tickets in London from Cambridge, be warned that some would interpret this as a separate contract and you'd not be covered in the event of a delay. As you know in the other topic I do not take that view and I think it's fine as long as you allow the minimum connectional allowance time. I'd allow more than that for the sleeper though especially if you want to go in the lounge car.

 

[rsdavies45]

.

 

[EltonRoad]

I bought a First Class Sleeper Single from Fort William to "London Zone 1" via the ScotRail web site. I booked it yesterday.

This morning the tickets arrived through the post, and they are indeed to Zone U12* Londn, route +Cal Sleeper.