Caledonian Sleeper: Rules re amended timings

[williamn]

I was on the Euston to Aberdeen sleeper last night, which was cancelled at Edinburgh around 5am with passengers put in 8 seater people carriers (though CS insist on referring to them as coaches, but I can guarantee FAR less comfortable) to complete the 3 hour journey to Aberdeen, where we arrived at 08.10.

I've been offered 25% compensation as compensation for the inconvenience, but they've said no delay repay is due as the arrival time was amended via text message to 9.00am at 11.22am on the day of departure. I don't think this is right, and the change in arrival time was notified too late. Do any of the experts on here know?

A side note but CS say the 'coaches' left at 06.02 when we actually left around 5.20. How they'd know given there were no staff around I don't know! (they'd pay more compensation if the road transport was 3 hours or more, but annoying we were ten mins under even on the accurate timings)

 

[Watershed]

I can find no evidence of the scheduled arrival time of the Aberdeen portion having been amended in any public timetable source. The Aberdeen portion simply shows as cancelled - see for example the independent Timetable History website.

Being sent a text at 11:22 on the day of departure is irrelevant; even if they sought to rely on the purported "Published Timetable of the Day" exclusion, by its own terms they would have needed to make the change by 22:00 the night before departure. Therefore they were at least 13 hours too late for this to be of any effect. In any event, it is highly unlikely that such a significant change to the terms of the contract could be unilaterally imposed in the context of a consumer contract.

As such, Delay Repay remains payable - albeit at the 50% rate since you were 'merely' 30 minutes late based on the booked timings.

You are also entitled to something for the downgrade in accommodation. CS' Guest Experience Charter specifically states that if you are downgraded to an inferior class of accommodation, you're entitled to the difference between the equivalent fares, plus £10 compensation. As you were downgraded for part of the journey I would apply this difference on a pro-rata basis - timewise being the most reasonable method of calculation in my eyes.

You would have had to board the train by at least 21:10 or so, and based on your other posts you were 'evicted' at around 5am. You finally arrived at Aberdeen at 08:10. As such you were deprived of the benefit of your accommodation for approximately 29% of the duration of the journey (remember that CS advertises itself as effectively a hotel on rails!). Therefore 29% of the difference in fares, plus £10, would apply as a bare minimum.

Given all the circumstances I would have said compensation/reimbursement of 100% of the cost of your fare would be warranted. That's certainly what I would be asking for in your shoes.

 

[gray1404]

I would raise a chargeback with the bank for this one if I was in your position as you have not received the service paid for.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

(Y)ou have not received the service paid for.

As long as we overlook the element of getting the OP from London to Aberdeen.

 

[williamn]

Perhaps unsurprisingly CS aren’t willing to accept this. They told me they communicated the day prior, a communication I didn’t receive, only getting a text the day of travel. The fact remains the public timetable was also unamended. I presume my next route would be to complain to the ombudsman?

 

[Watershed]

Perhaps unsurprisingly CS aren’t willing to accept this. They told me they communicated the day prior, a communication I didn’t receive, only getting a text the day of travel. The fact remains the public timetable was also unamended. I presume my next route would be to complain to the ombudsman?

Disappointing but perhaps not entirely surprising. Perhaps they'd care to provide evidence of the alleged change to the scheduled arrival time? In any event, as per my earlier post, I am highly doubtful that any clause purporting to allow them to unilaterally vary the contract in this way is enforceable.

In any event that also overlooks your claim for downgrade compensation, which they cannot argue with since it is right there in their own Charter! Perhaps you could provide us with a copy of exactly what it is they've said, just so we can see if there's something obvious we're missing?

I wouldn't bother taking it to the Ombudsman; it has proven itself a chocolate teapot, often taking absurd claims of fact or law from TOCs at face value and undertaking absolutely no investigation or independent thought of their own. If you want to proceed further then a chargeback, section 75 claim (if you used a credit card) or sending a Letter Before Claim would seem the logical next steps. Of course we can guide you through any of those.

 

[williamn]

Thanks for the above info. I didn't dispute the downgrade compensation as the 25% they offered wasn't so far from the 29% you had calculated (perhaps more given its 25% off a berth rather than the difference between berth and seated for 29% of the journey. Oddly the compensation they have outlined is entirely different to what is in their charter.

Good to know re the Ombudsman. I will go back to CS and ask to see evidence of the communication to me, if that doesn't produce any movement then I'll do a letter before claim, which it would be great to get some advice on.

Communications are below for context (latest first, read up from bottom perhaps)

From CS:

Thank you for your reply.

The following message was sent out to guests on the 23rd at 1653:

Storm Jocelyn Update: We are planning on operating our service from London to Aberdeen on Wednesday 24 January, subject to Network Rail ensuring our routes are clear and safe to operate. Because of this week's storms, we will run at a reduced speed for part of the journey and have made some changes to arrival times. Your service will now arrive in Aberdeen at 0900. Boarding and departure times won’t be affected. We look forward to welcoming you onboard and will provide further updates if the situation changes. Please contact us on Live Chat at www.sleeper.scot if you have any questions.

As prior notice was given to guests regarding the amended timetable, delay repay is not payable.

Thank you for the information regarding your departure time on your taxi. As this calculation is still within 3 hours, the 25% refund you are entitled to is correct.
-

From me:

Thanks for your email.

The change to the arrival time was made too late to affect Delay Repay. The published timetable still stated a 7.40am arrival (http://timetablehistory.com/times.aspx?rsid=CS100102&date=20240125) - the change would have to be made by 10pm the night before departure for it change the published timetable.

Therefore delay repay is still payable.

It doesn't affect your compensation calculations but I am unsure how the departure time of our taxi (it was definitely not as comfortable as a coach) was arrived at (esp as there were no Caledonian Sleeper staff overseeing departure, we were just left to it). We left around 5.20am. Arriving in Aberdeen at 8.10am only having left Edinburgh at 06.02 would be physically impossible.

-

From CS:
Thank you for your email.

The arrival time for the northbound London Euston to Aberdeen service on 24th January was previously amended to 0900. As the arranged road transport arrived in Aberdeen at 0810, guests were not late on arrival against the amended arrival time.

I appreciate your frustration at unexpectedly having to wake up and switch over from the train to road transport. Our policy regarding compensation for road transport is that, should guests be on road transport for 1-3 hours, they will receive 25% of the price of their ticket back; if over 3 hours on road transport, guests are entitled to 50%. As your coach left for Aberdeen at 0602, you are only entitled to a refund of 25%. As stated in the email you were sent, you should receive this refund within 3-5 working days.
-
From me following initial proactive offer of 25% compensation:

Thank you for your email below. I appreciate the offer of 25% refund, and also appreciate the complexity of arranging transport for everyone so early in the morning but I do think given that we arrived in Aberdeen 30 mins after the scheduled arrival time, and that we were woken at 5am and had to dress pack and leave immediately, and then spent 3 hours wedged into a small seat into a people carrier with 7 others, that the level of compensation is very low. The quality of the experience was pretty different to what was sold to us and it was a fairly horrible experience.

 

[robbeech]

Google maps suggests 2hr20 as an average time between Waverley Station and Aberdeen Station. This is set for a car, which you were not in. Whilst a real 8 seater minibus may still be allowed to travel at the same speed as a car in bad weather (lets face it that's why you were in it) it would be somewhat unsafe. Are CS suggesting that they did so well for time that they must have exceeded the speed limit?
The Published timetable is what you go by, as others have said the Ombudsman have close to zero training and just listen to what the railway says even when they lie through their teeth so legal action will likely be the only sensible next step here.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for the above info. I didn't dispute the downgrade compensation as the 25% they offered wasn't so far from the 29% you had calculated (perhaps more given its 25% off a berth rather than the difference between berth and seated for 29% of the journey. Oddly the compensation they have outlined is entirely different to what is in their charter.

Good to know re the Ombudsman. I will go back to CS and ask to see evidence of the communication to me, if that doesn't produce any movement then I'll do a letter before claim, which it would be great to get some advice on.

Communications are below for context (latest first, read up from bottom perhaps)

From CS:

Thank you for your reply.

The following message was sent out to guests on the 23rd at 1653:

Storm Jocelyn Update: We are planning on operating our service from London to Aberdeen on Wednesday 24 January, subject to Network Rail ensuring our routes are clear and safe to operate. Because of this week's storms, we will run at a reduced speed for part of the journey and have made some changes to arrival times. Your service will now arrive in Aberdeen at 0900. Boarding and departure times won’t be affected. We look forward to welcoming you onboard and will provide further updates if the situation changes. Please contact us on Live Chat at www.sleeper.scot if you have any questions.

As prior notice was given to guests regarding the amended timetable, delay repay is not payable.

Thank you for the information regarding your departure time on your taxi. As this calculation is still within 3 hours, the 25% refund you are entitled to is correct.
-

From me:

Thanks for your email.

The change to the arrival time was made too late to affect Delay Repay. The published timetable still stated a 7.40am arrival (http://timetablehistory.com/times.aspx?rsid=CS100102&date=20240125) - the change would have to be made by 10pm the night before departure for it change the published timetable.

Therefore delay repay is still payable.

It doesn't affect your compensation calculations but I am unsure how the departure time of our taxi (it was definitely not as comfortable as a coach) was arrived at (esp as there were no Caledonian Sleeper staff overseeing departure, we were just left to it). We left around 5.20am. Arriving in Aberdeen at 8.10am only having left Edinburgh at 06.02 would be physically impossible.

-

From CS:
Thank you for your email.

The arrival time for the northbound London Euston to Aberdeen service on 24th January was previously amended to 0900. As the arranged road transport arrived in Aberdeen at 0810, guests were not late on arrival against the amended arrival time.

I appreciate your frustration at unexpectedly having to wake up and switch over from the train to road transport. Our policy regarding compensation for road transport is that, should guests be on road transport for 1-3 hours, they will receive 25% of the price of their ticket back; if over 3 hours on road transport, guests are entitled to 50%. As your coach left for Aberdeen at 0602, you are only entitled to a refund of 25%. As stated in the email you were sent, you should receive this refund within 3-5 working days.
-
From me following initial proactive offer of 25% compensation:

Thank you for your email below. I appreciate the offer of 25% refund, and also appreciate the complexity of arranging transport for everyone so early in the morning but I do think given that we arrived in Aberdeen 30 mins after the scheduled arrival time, and that we were woken at 5am and had to dress pack and leave immediately, and then spent 3 hours wedged into a small seat into a people carrier with 7 others, that the level of compensation is very low. The quality of the experience was pretty different to what was sold to us and it was a fairly horrible experience.

Their response is completely missing the point. In the NRCoT, the rail industry has decided to define that the "Published Timetable of the Day" is whatever is shown on nationalrail.co.uk at 22:00 the night before. Sending an email with an amended time is of absolutely no legal significance as far as the NRCoT is concerned.

Unless they can produce evidence of this amended timing being shown on nationalrail.co.uk at 22:00 the night before, their defence fails on the industry's own terms. Hoist by their own petard, as it were...

In any event, there are still legal arguments to be made concerning the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and their self-evident failure to use reasonable care and skill (s.49) or to provide the service in accordance with the terms implied into the contract (i.e. the arrival time and accommodation type as well as ability to occupy the cabin until 08:xx - s.50).

Your Letter Before Claim is where I would get into this, because clearly CS are not willing to give you more than is absolutely required (and they're trying to deny even that!). We can help you with drafting this.

 

[williamn]

Thank you. I’ll push back on the fact the published timetable wasn’t updated first…

 

[williamn]

Well, not surprising but my push back had zero result (see below). I note they haven't addressed the main point, that the published timetable was not amended. Given that this seems to be a quite clear breach of Delay Repay, is it really not worth taking to the ombudsman?

From me to CS:

Unfortunately I didn't receive the below communication until a text at 11.22am on the day of departure.

According to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, the published timetable of the day is whatever is shown on nationalrail.co.uk at 22:00 the night before departure. I can't find any evidence the arrival time was amended from 7.40am in that timetable. The communication about amended arrival, while useful to know, is not legally significant and doesn't change Caledonian Sleepers obligations under Delay Repay, which is against the published timetable of the day.

Prior notice about delays does not affect delay repay payments if the published timetable of the day is unchanged.

-

CS reply:

In addition to the text message advising guests of the updated timetable, our Service Alterations page on our website was updated over 24 hours in advance regarding the amended timetable. It is the responsibility of each guest to ensure that they have the most up to date information regarding their service. As previously stated, because you were given prior notice of the amended arrival time, you are not entitled to delay repay compensation.

We have dealt with your enquiry to the best of our abilities. If you are still in disagreement over whether you are entitled to delay repay, the next step would be taking your case to the rail ombudsman. If you would like to take your case to the rail ombudsman, we will have to issue you a deadlock letter stating that we have followed the correct procedures while dealing with your enquiry. If this is something that you would like to do, please let me know so that we can issue you a deadlock letter.

 

[Watershed]

Well, not surprising but my push back had zero result (see below). I note they haven't addressed the main point, that the published timetable was not amended. Given that this seems to be a quite clear breach of Delay Repay, is it really not worth taking to the ombudsman?

From me to CS:

Unfortunately I didn't receive the below communication until a text at 11.22am on the day of departure.

According to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, the published timetable of the day is whatever is shown on nationalrail.co.uk at 22:00 the night before departure. I can't find any evidence the arrival time was amended from 7.40am in that timetable. The communication about amended arrival, while useful to know, is not legally significant and doesn't change Caledonian Sleepers obligations under Delay Repay, which is against the published timetable of the day.

Prior notice about delays does not affect delay repay payments if the published timetable of the day is unchanged.

-

CS reply:

In addition to the text message advising guests of the updated timetable, our Service Alterations page on our website was updated over 24 hours in advance regarding the amended timetable. It is the responsibility of each guest to ensure that they have the most up to date information regarding their service. As previously stated, because you were given prior notice of the amended arrival time, you are not entitled to delay repay compensation.

We have dealt with your enquiry to the best of our abilities. If you are still in disagreement over whether you are entitled to delay repay, the next step would be taking your case to the rail ombudsman. If you would like to take your case to the rail ombudsman, we will have to issue you a deadlock letter stating that we have followed the correct procedures while dealing with your enquiry. If this is something that you would like to do, please let me know so that we can issue you a deadlock letter.

Unsurprising but disappointing that they seem unable to grasp this very simple point about the definition that they (as part of the rail industry) have chosen to adopt for the Published Timetable of the Day. Even their own Charter doesn't reference the Service Alterations page so the contents of this page remains entirely irrelevant. Notice, too, how they seem to be blaming you for their lack of communication. It's difficult to imagine such a poor standard of customer service being seen as acceptable in any other industry.

Whilst you can proceed to the Ombudsman if you wish, I don't think we have heard of any cases where they have delivered a positive result for the customer. They simply seem to take whatever the TOC say at face value, undertaking no research or independent thought of their own.

Personally speaking, given the amount in question I would be sending a Letter Before Claim at this stage, with a view to proceeding to Court.

 

[williamn]

Unsurprising but disappointing that they seem unable to grasp this very simple point about the definition that they (as part of the rail industry) have chosen to adopt for the Published Timetable of the Day. Even their own Charter doesn't reference the Service Alterations page so the contents of this page remains entirely irrelevant. Notice, too, how they seem to be blaming you for their lack of communication. It's difficult to imagine such a poor standard of customer service being seen as acceptable in any other industry.

Whilst you can proceed to the Ombudsman if you wish, I don't think we have heard of any cases where they have delivered a positive result for the customer. They simply seem to take whatever the TOC say at face value, undertaking no research or independent thought of their own.

Personally speaking, given the amount in question I would be sending a Letter Before Claim at this stage, with a view to proceeding to Court.

Thanks, if ok I'll DM to get some advice about that?

 

[nanstallon]

I note the way the TOC refers to 'guests'. No, a customer who has paid a price for a journey, and not received what he paid for.

The British don't do customer service!

 

[Watershed]

Thanks, if ok I'll DM to get some advice about that?

Feel free to send a message