Caledonian Sleeper Mk5 Discussion

[Tam]

Video3 30th September 2017 at the inner test track, Velim

 

[Tam]

Some photos from today.

 

[Tam]

Video 4 30th September 2017 at the inner test track, Velim

 

[TimboM]

Just caught up with the photos/videos, Tam - great stuff, thanks again for capturing/sharing.

The stock does sound very quiet - I wonder if it'll be that quiet on the WCML / West Highland Line??

 

[Tam]

Wonderful pictures, thanks so much!

Would you be able to take some pictures in daylight comparing the lower and higher window lines, also if your able to if you can capture the curvature of the coach?

Cheers

Well, I thought all the windows were the same height and in the same vertical position, the only difference being the width. See my yellow lines photo (which I attach again) which 'proves' that.

However, from the videos (especially at the start of Video 3), it's clear that some windows are lower than others.

 

[jopsuk]

It's striking from Tam's excellent pictures quite where the differences in UK loading gauge are; you can really see how it tapers in

 

[ld0595]

Great videos there Tam. I find it a bit of a shame that the destination displays stick out a fair bit - it makes them seem like they were stuck on as an afterthought in my opinion.

Is there any reason why they went for two pairs of doors on each coach rather than one? The sleeper isn't a service that needs fast loading/unloading times - and I'm sure the extra space could have been used for something useful.

Nevertheless, I am very excited for the new stock and cannot wait to try it out next year!

 

[marks87]

Great videos there Tam. I find it a bit of a shame that the destination displays stick out a fair bit - it makes them seem like they were stuck on as an afterthought in my opinion.

Is there any reason why they went for two pairs of doors on each coach rather than one? The sleeper isn't a service that needs fast loading/unloading times - and I'm sure the extra space could have been used for something useful.

The sleeper isn’t a fixed train. There would be a risk that when it splits, you end up without a door at either (or both) the very back or very front. Not exactly convenient if you’ve got a lot of luggage and your berth is at the other end of the coach.

 

[TimboM]

The sleeper isn’t a fixed train. There would be a risk that when it splits, you end up without a door at either (or both) the very back or very front. Not exactly convenient if you’ve got a lot of luggage and your berth is at the other end of the coach.

I also expect fire/safety regs in the event of an evacuation? Having 2 doors per coach one way or another is half as many to get folk out of in a hurry.

 

[TimboM]

Great videos there Tam. I find it a bit of a shame that the destination displays stick out a fair bit - it makes them seem like they were stuck on as an afterthought in my opinion.

I'm guessing that if they were more flush it would mean more intrusion internally thus taking up valuable space inside?

 

[marks87]

I also expect fire/safety regs in the event of an evacuation? Having 2 doors per coach one way or another is half as many to get folk out of in a hurry.

True enough.

Although with fewer passengers than a conventional train, the door-to-passenger ratio, even with half as many doors, is higher.

In any case, are there any examples of LHCS that has only one door at each end? Even on a non-splitting service it would limit flexibility.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also expect fire/safety regs in the event of an evacuation? Having 2 doors per coach one way or another is half as many to get folk out of in a hurry.

Fast evacuation is not an important principle in rail vehicle design. Indeed, staying on board is almost always the best bet.

 

[TimboM]

Fast evacuation is not an important principle in rail vehicle design. Indeed, staying on board is almost always the best bet.

I agree de-training is the last resort (if not in a station) and pax are kept on board if at all possible - but at some point it surely has to be a consideration in the (rare) event it is required; particularly as in most cases you'd only be able to use one side of the train.

 

[ld0595]

Thanks for the replies everyone. It makes a bit more sense to me now. I had thought of the splitting issue where you'd have two doors on one end and none on the other would be quite a major problem, but I wasn't sure if there was anything else which contributed to this.

As for fast evacuation, doesn't the 374 have one set of doors per coach in at least part of the train? A look at this video video suggests so. Hence why I thought fire regs wouldn't be an issue.

The comment about the destination screen makes sense. It still seems like a bit of an afterthought though, but I'm sure there's a good reason for it.

 

[TimboM]

Thanks for the replies everyone. It makes a bit more sense to me now. I had thought of the splitting issue where you'd have two doors on one end and none on the other would be quite a major problem, but I wasn't sure if there was anything else which contributed to this.

As for fast evacuation, doesn't the 374 have one set of doors per coach in at least part of the train? A look at this video video suggests so. Hence why I thought fire regs wouldn't be an issue.

The comment about the destination screen makes sense. It still seems like a bit of an afterthought though, but I'm sure there's a good reason for it.

Interesting re. the Class 374...!

I wonder how similar the body shells are to the TPE MkVs and the fact they would have four doors per carriage for reduced dwell times meaning the sleeper MkVs have four too? That said even the Sleeper coaches have different window arrangements, so I wouldn't have thought it would be that difficult to make the coaches differently.

Re. the destination screens, they were on the original mock-ups in the factory (see pic courtesy of Rail) - so weren't an afterthought. Although in the mock-ups they were in a different place and more flush, but then it was a mock-up only and they clearly look like they're just stuck on graphics...

 

[NotATrainspott]

I had thought they might go for fewer doors to maximise revenue-earning space on the train. But, looking at the E320 seating plan, it seems that Siemens only managed to fit luggage racks in the space the doors would have been on the new Eurostar trains. There may just not be anything meaningful to put in the space the doors could have been on the Mk5s. If there's no benefit, then there's no real reason to do it and make the trains harder to use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TPE coaches derive from the Sleeper ones, not the other way round, they were chosen by TPE because they were a quick follow on order at a good price.

 

[Tam]

True enough.

Although with fewer passengers than a conventional train, the door-to-passenger ratio, even with half as many doors, is higher.

In any case, are there any examples of LHCS that has only one door at each end? Even on a non-splitting service it would limit flexibility.

Some České Dráhy restaurant cars have steps and a handrail - but no door. Once you finally find your way onboard, you can get a good quality, freshly cooked meal with drinks for under a tenner! Cheaper than paying for a first class ticket if you are on a longish journey.

 

[Tam]

I just got back from a bike ride to Velim and there is no sign of any of 'our' coaches. I suspect that all five are now indoors in one of the many big sheds there.

There has been a lot of shuffling overnight, many locos and coaches are in completely different places compared to yesterday.

I also saw a CAF New Generation Sprinter (SNG) EMU for Netherlands Railways being shunted out of the test centre onto the main line. This has a Delner coupler - is it the same one as ours?

 

[Spartacus]

In any case, are there any examples of LHCS that has only one door at each end? Even on a non-splitting service it would limit flexibility.

I think most loco hauled sets in the UK have at least one, though now typically in fixed formations with a door physically still there either locked or not for passenger use, HSTs with the guard's compartment in the TGS and both Mk4 and many Mk3 buffets, although I don't think either were initially designed like that.

 

[jopsuk]

on an HST TGC there's still, as far as I remember, emergency access through the Guard's Van area. Similarly on the 180 there's emergency access at the cab end. At catering vehicles with an end without useable doors there's always another carriage adjacent with doors- similar to the Siemens Velaro single-end carriages.

Of course, on this, Great anglia is getting a whole fleet where the only doors ar mid-carriage.

 

[Tam]

I was at Velim again on Sunday and the five sleeper coaches are back in the siding at the Velim yard (not the Velim station siding) where they were first parked when they reached the test centre.

I'll be there again on Saturday when my trainspotting son comes over for a visit, hoping to see them on the test track again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some České Dráhy restaurant cars have steps and a handrail - but no door. Once you finally find your way onboard, you can get a good quality, freshly cooked meal with drinks for under a tenner! Cheaper than paying for a first class ticket if you are on a longish journey.

That's for a shunter to ride on. DB Silberlinge have (if there are any left) similar fittings at the ends despite doors being at thirds, visible on this example. It's probably a UIC standard.

 

[Tam]

I was back at Velim this morning and could see just the one sleeper coach (looks like a buffet car) which was coupled to a Vectron loco in a siding beside the main track. I had a good look around and could not see the other four coaches anywhere, so they are possibly indoors.

There was no testing and no movement of any king taking place, just the flags (none of which are British or Scottish) billowing in the chilly wind.

 

[Tam]

Another photo from today...

 

[TimboM]

I was back at Velim this morning and could see just the one sleeper coach (looks like a buffet car) which was coupled to a Vectron loco in a siding beside the main track. I had a good look around and could not see the other four coaches anywhere, so they are possibly indoors.

There was no testing and no movement of any king taking place, just the flags (none of which are British or Scottish) billowing in the chilly wind.

Thanks for the updates and photos @Tam - is that possibly a Seated/Brake car rather than a Lounge/Buffet? Second photo looks like it has plenty of seats in it, but can't really tell to be honest!

 

[Clansman]

Thanks for uploading, Tam. Definitley a seated coach by the looks of it

 

[Tam]

- is that possibly a Seated/Brake car rather than a Lounge/Buffet? Second photo looks like it has plenty of seats in it, but can't really tell to be honest!

It is indeed, thanks. Closer inspection of the photo shows a high density of seats with headrests, which is unlikely in a buffet car.

 

[dp21]

Another photo from today...
View attachment 39356

Is it just me/the inboard bogie frame providing an illusion but the wheels look really small in this picture. Anyone know if they're particularly smaller than "usual" or if it is just that; an illusion?

 

[Highland37]

Interesting to note that the Vectron doesn't look massive next to the coach.