Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[47271]

The Twitter complaints were all around a lack of communication generally, and on that basis were ill informed now that we know what was being dealt with at the time. None referred to the situation in the Edinburgh Jury's Inn, which I agree is completely unacceptable if you've paid £200 for a single journey.

However, I don't think it's realistic to expect CS to maintain an arrangement for hotel rooms for all passengers as a backup for last minute cancellations - this would be utterly impossible in Edinburgh during the Festival for example. And let's not forget what happened to all of those BA passengers at Terminal 5 in the snows of late 2010 - they ended up sleeping on the floor because there wasn't an hotel room to be had for miles around.

It may be with the new trains they'll prioritise the needs of those who have paid super top price. The rest of us will spend the night on the train in the platform if we're lucky. Or sat up in the Jury's Inn if we're not.

 

[Scotrail84]

Those on the Edinburgh portion though were told it would be running but with a delay, fair enough. It's then when they turn round at 0030 and say its cancelled, punt you up to Jury's Inn reception to sit in a seat all night that you can't make any plans. Myself and a few others ended up doing this and caught a cheap flight early morning.

Had there been a train able to make it to Edinburgh then you would have been allowed to kip on it. The fact was it didn't make it due to the weather...

 

[Chrism20]

However, I don't think it's realistic to expect CS to maintain an arrangement for hotel rooms for all passengers as a backup for last minute cancellations - this would be utterly impossible in Edinburgh during the Festival for example. And let's not forget what happened to all of those BA passengers at Terminal 5 in the snows of late 2010 - they ended up sleeping on the floor because there wasn't an hotel room to be had for miles around.

It is completely realistic. You set up a corporate account with a company that supplies corporate travel facilities and when you cancel the service you phone them up and say I need x number of rooms in the Edinburgh/Glasgow/Aberdeen etc areas can you get me them? You then despatch the passengers in taxis to the supplied hotels.

This is exactly what happened with BA in 2010 the problem then was there were no rooms left. Edinburgh hotels run at high occupancy during the festival but it does not run at 100% all the time. They will not all be accommodated in the same hotel but I have no doubt even during the festival that accommodation could be sourced.

 

[ScottDarg]

1S26 to Glasgow/Edinburgh is running 160 minutes late this morning. The CS twitter account is blaming overhead line damage near Abington.

Full train running to Glasgow if I'm understanding the tweet correctly - no split at Carstairs:

1/2 - Our London Euston to Glasgow/Edinburgh service is heavily delayed due to overhead wire damage near Abington. This service will now call at Glasgow Central only. We sincerely apologise for the inconvenience caused.

https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1043411756205391872?s=19

 

[Highlandspring]

1S26 brought the wires down at Lamington which smashed the loco windscreen. It was rescued by 47749 (which was the loco for 1B26 on hand at Carstairs anyway) and the train went to to Carstairs, where the Edinburgh passengers changed onto a ScotRail service, then called at Motherwell and ran empty straight into Polmadie depot. Single Line Working is being set up over the unobstructed Up line.

 

[47271]

It is completely realistic. You set up a corporate account with a company that supplies corporate travel facilities and when you cancel the service you phone them up and say I need x number of rooms in the Edinburgh/Glasgow/Aberdeen etc areas can you get me them? You then despatch the passengers in taxis to the supplied hotels.

This is exactly what happened with BA in 2010 the problem then was there were no rooms left. Edinburgh hotels run at high occupancy during the festival but it does not run at 100% all the time. They will not all be accommodated in the same hotel but I have no doubt even during the festival that accommodation could be sourced.

No problem in setting up an arrangement I'm sure, but I'm still sceptical that it would work reliably if they commit to it as part of the service for all sleeper passengers. Peak demand for hotel rooms is likely to coincide with peak disruption, which is why I quoted the T5 case.

If they don't make an advance commitment to it, and the only reason they're not doing it is because it might cost them a bit of money once every six months, then I agree that they need to sort it out.

 

[fgwrich]

1S26 brought the wires down at Lamington which smashed the loco windscreen. It was rescued by 47749 (which was the loco for 1B26 on hand at Carstairs anyway) and the train went to to Carstairs, where the Edinburgh passengers changed onto a ScotRail service, then called at Motherwell and ran empty straight into Polmadie depot. Single Line Working is being set up over the unobstructed Up line.

I believe it was a fallen tree that took the OHLE with the 90 getting tangled into it. Unfortunately as a result, the pantograph of 90048 appears to be quite mangled up around the roof so expect a swap of 90s shortly.

 

[MrGrumpy]

I was on 1S25 on Tuesday night with my wife and son. I woke probably around 0500 and went to the lounge as we pulled into Perth and a fair few people got off. Didn't think much of it until we went through Dundee! That's when the lounge staff told us about the derailment outside Inverness.

We got to Aberdeen and sat there for 20+ mins due to a signalling problem at Dyce. The staff were alright. They handed out the Delay Repay forms and dished out drinks to the now full lounge. It would have been nice to have been given the option of ending our journey at Aberdeen as we were due to head back to Glasgow in the afternoon after a Highland jaunt (which subsequently didn't happen after an 84L arrival). We literally retraced our steps back to Glasgow via Aberdeen, Dundee and Stirling!

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, I don't think it's realistic to expect CS to maintain an arrangement for hotel rooms for all passengers as a backup for last minute cancellations - this would be utterly impossible in Edinburgh during the Festival for example.

They don't have to be in Edinburgh; for instance they could bus people out to Glasgow just as, say, easyJet tend to bus people to Annemasse (France) when there's a cancellation at Geneva.

The point is having a plan in place and staff available on call to obtain the resources needed.

Once again, it is not acceptable to treat premium passengers in this manner.

 

[BRX]

On the northbound highlander. I'm in the Inverness portion but as far as i can make out the Aberdeen lounge car is bust....again.

 

[philthetube]

They don't have to be in Edinburgh; for instance they could bus people out to Glasgow just as, say, easyJet tend to bus people to Annemasse (France) when there's a cancellation at Geneva.

The point is having a plan in place and staff available on call to obtain the resources needed.

Once again, it is not acceptable to treat premium passengers in this manner.

True enough, if possible and safe
Snow or roads, do you think they should do that.
70mph winds, same question.
Sleeper from Glasgow not running or weather also causing problems at the airport?

How much do you think they would have to pay hotels for them to always have rooms available to cover cancellations?

You are talking about a perfect world and in a perfect world the sleeper would never fail, it would never snow or be windy and so the rooms would never be needed.

 

[gord]

A bit worrying to see Caledonian Sleeper still selling direct London to Stirling tickets for the week 15th-19th October when there's a blockade on through Stirling that week. Hopefully there won't be too many passengers messed around.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True enough, if possible and safe
Snow or roads, do you think they should do that.
70mph winds, same question.
Sleeper from Glasgow not running or weather also causing problems at the airport?

How much do you think they would have to pay hotels for them to always have rooms available to cover cancellations?

You are talking about a perfect world and in a perfect world the sleeper would never fail, it would never snow or be windy and so the rooms would never be needed.

In reality there will always be some hotel rooms available in the Central Belt somewhere, and if there is serious weather most likely there will be "no shows" at more local hotels. This is why they need on-call staff or a contract with someone to find them. I'm not talking about keeping rooms free, I'm talking of a one-stop means of arranging them - just like airlines - you know, the organisations they are competing with - actually do have.

There may be odd niche cases where this fails (and it will be harder when it's the Festival) but it should work most of the time. Just dumping people in a hotel reception isn't OK.

 

[jellybaby]

just like airlines - you know, the organisations they are competing with - actually do have

Airlines frequently fail to find hotels. My brother recently had his flight cancelled and the airline hotel agent spent an hour trying before giving up and telling him to find his own hotel room because they couldn't find any, Unsurprisingly my brother did no better and spent the night on an airport floor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Airlines frequently fail to find hotels. My brother recently had his flight cancelled and the airline hotel agent spent an hour trying before giving up and telling him to find his own hotel room because they couldn't find any, Unsurprisingly my brother did no better and spent the night on an airport floor.

Did CS actually try?

 

[BRX]

I was in the seated coach last night and the heating was all over the place with one end of the carriage getting uncomfortably hot. The solution offered was to move to the other end if you could find any free seats. It seemed to cool down again a bit after a couple of hours but it did a good job of messing up most of the scant amount of sleep I was hoping to get.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was in the seated coach last night and the heating was all over the place with one end of the carriage getting uncomfortably hot. The solution offered was to move to the other end if you could find any free seats. It seemed to cool down again a bit after a couple of hours but it did a good job of messing up most of the scant amount of sleep I was hoping to get.

The heating setup in those coaches is odd, being a blown air system instead of the radiators fitted to every other Mk2. It's also pretty rubbish. I've long wondered why - is it required to be that way for night trains due to the fire some years ago?

 

[nickswift99]

The heating setup in those coaches is odd, being a blown air system instead of the radiators fitted to every other Mk2. It's also pretty rubbish. I've long wondered why - is it required to be that way for night trains due to the fire some years ago?

You might be thinking of the Taunton Sleeper fire. You can read about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taunton_sleeping_car_fire.

 

[47271]

I caught up with three Highlander regulars over the weekend to get their view on CS handling of last minute cancellations and, a variation on the theme, an extreme delay ahead of departure or initial pickup.

- To their knowledge (approx 600 single trips between them) hotel accomodation has never been offered as an alternative in the event of cancellation, either by CS or First.

- All but three cases of cancellations at major originating or intermediate stations were resolved by passengers spending the night on the train in the platform and then catching an early Virgin train in the morning.

- Two unsatisfactory cases of cancellation at Waverley at around 3am southbound and a dismal wait in the Jury's Inn until the first King's Cross train, it's funny how history repeats itself. One of these was around a year ago in weather conditions similar to last week's.

- One truly bizarre example of a northbound Highlander cancelled at Preston and returned to Euston complete with passengers.

- Quite of few examples of poor communication around delayed or cancelled pickups at intermediate stations - replacement buses and taxis going missing for long periods and CS having no information on where they may be. But they've always turned up in the end and the journey completed, albeit very late.

- Last week's Edinburgh Lowlander question was discussed and they agreed that CS should have the option of hotel backup in this type of scenario. However a hotel hadn't occurred to anyone tipped out of the Highlander at Waverley at 3am - all they wanted to do was get themselves to London as quickly as possible, whether by rail or air.

- The conclusion was that hotels should be offered as a customer service contingency on the spot, they think that the reality is that the need for the service would be very infrequent indeed so low risk to CS, but under no circumstances should be promised as part of the package. They, like me, don't believe that the accommodation can be guaranteed to be available within the bounds of time and, in extreme weather conditions, safety.

 

[tsr]

Did CS actually try?

Other organisations running transport services did during the recent severe weather, and were unsuccessful.

This included VTWC.

 

[BRX]

The heating setup in those coaches is odd, being a blown air system instead of the radiators fitted to every other Mk2. It's also pretty rubbish. I've long wondered why - is it required to be that way for night trains due to the fire some years ago?

I don't really see why the seated coach would need to be treated any differently from any other seated passenger carriage when it comes to fire safety.

 

[a_c_skinner]

IIRC the Taunton fire was due to flammable materials against a heater so it may be that is why extra safe heating is needed - the question isn't the posture of the passengers it is if they are asleep or not and might overlook combustion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

IIRC the Taunton fire was due to flammable materials against a heater so it may be that is why extra safe heating is needed - the question isn't the posture of the passengers it is if they are asleep or not and might overlook combustion.

This may well be the case. Do the GWR Mk3s have special heating systems in the seated coaches or are they just normal FOs?

 

[dubscottie]

I don't really see why the seated coach would need to be treated any differently from any other seated passenger carriage when it comes to fire safety.

Indeed. Mk2 stock should have AC (blown air) although I think some of the sleeper lounges had radiator looking things (might be the same things used in the Mk4 firsts that looked like towel rails, non functioning and just for show).

The big issue with the Taunton fire was the fact most people were killed before the first flame was visible due to the ventilation system.

Simple smoke alarms would work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. Mk2 stock should have AC (blown air)

Most UK aircon stock blows in cold air at the top and heats it with radiators/convectors along the sides at the bottom. The CS seated coaches are unusual in just blowing in air at the required temperature at floor level.

 

[Bungle965]

Using the seated sleeper, on the seat selection is there an optimal seat to go for?
Travelling alone so most likely a single seat would be best.
Thanks,
Sam

 

[Bletchleyite]

Using the seated sleeper, on the seat selection is there an optimal seat to go for?
Travelling alone so most likely a single seat would be best.

NOT the facing bay.

 

[BRX]

Using the seated sleeper, on the seat selection is there an optimal seat to go for?
Travelling alone so most likely a single seat would be best.
Thanks,
Sam

It's a bit of a gamble. Booking a single seat is safest. But if you book a seat in the group-of-three or group-of-four and no one else takes one of the others then you get multiple stretching-out options. My decision tends to be based on how busy I reckon it's going to be. A friday night in the middle of summer - play safe and try and get one of the single ones. Midweek in january - live dangerously and book one of the ones in the facing groups. Normally you'll be fine. If someone else does show up, there's usually quite a few other seats spare that you can move to if you want.

 

[BRX]

Oh, and remember the train changes direction at edinburgh. So if you want to be facing forwards in the morning, get a seat that's facing backwards as you leave euston.

 

[Scotrail84]

Using the seated sleeper, on the seat selection is there an optimal seat to go for?
Travelling alone so most likely a single seat would be best.
Thanks,
Sam

4A, 5A, 6A, 7A, 8A or 9A, they are all singles.

1A faces 2BC

2A faces 3A

2BC, 3BC, 4BC, 5BC, 6BC, 7BC, 8BC, and 9BC are all doubles

10BC are doubles but face 11BC.