Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[TimboM]

I noted that today and yesterday, the 92 has been stabling in the siding between platforms 16 and 17 at Edinburgh rather than in the Klondike. Is this usual, engineering related or just mixing things up a bit?

On a side note, 73967 was in Craigentinny yesterday but wasn't this morning, ditto 67013. Did these go out on the sleepers last night?

67013 is on VTEC Thunderbird duties at the moment. 67020 is the loco currently loaned to GBRf and working the Inverness portion..

73967 is still showing as Craigentinny on TOPS, with 968 working the Fort William currently and 970 the Aberdeen. TOPS isn't always correct of course, but it could have just been inside the depot.

 

[GW43125]

67013 is on VTEC Thunderbird duties at the moment. 67020 is the loco currently loaned to GBRf and working the Inverness portion..

73967 is still showing as Craigentinny on TOPS, with 968 working the Fort William currently and 970 the Aberdeen. TOPS isn't always correct of course, but it could have just been inside the depot.

It's probably just inside the depot having moved. We were going too fast to focus on anything, though I did spy a 385 parked round the back (I'm not going to wander off topic about the 385).

 

[Scotrail84]

OK, even I'm veering into holiday mode thoughts now .... Would there be any mileage for GBRf to try and get, say, 4 Class 90s from DBC (now that they seem fairly chummy) for the ECS work north and south of the border? More modern equipment that could be fitted with Dellners, better ETS than the 86s/87 (although nowhere near the capacity of a 92), more DBC locos currently parked up in gainful employment ..... what's not to like?

No, it would involve extra shunt moves at Edinburgh, its hard enough trying to get the engine round the train in the mornings during rush hour without have to shift 2.

 

[CosherB]

No, it would involve extra shunt moves at Edinburgh, its hard enough trying to get the engine round the train in the mornings during rush hour without have to shift 2.

Fair enough chief.

 

[TimboM]

No, it would involve extra shunt moves at Edinburgh, its hard enough trying to get the engine round the train in the mornings during rush hour without have to shift 2.

Maybe getting the wrong end of the stick of what CosherB was suggesting, but I don't see any reason why the current approach would change for the Lowlander Edinburgh portion (i.e. one loco (a 92 in future with Mk5s) taking the ECS from Polmadie (5C11), returning with 1C11 to Carstairs, recessing overnight, then back with 1B26 to Edinburgh and finally returning the ECS (5B26) to Polmadie).

The Highlander of course doesn't have any ECS requirements at Edinburgh (usually!)

A dedicated ECS loco (outside of engineering diversions etc) would only be needed for Polmadie<->Glasgow as it is now I'd have thought. It's also a Load 8 + 92 DIT which a solo 73/9 has managed in the past so there's at least one other option for that if a 92 isn't available (assuming a spare 73/9 is!).

 

[TimboM]

Path in tomorrow for 0Z73 Craigentinny - Loughborough light engine move. If it runs will likely be the next 73/9 going in for Dellner fitting.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00280/2017/08/10/advanced

Once bitten twice shy mate.

Ye of little faith...

73968 on its way south.

 

[Tracked]

Ye of little faith...

73968 on its way south.

Saw it at Chesterfield just after 15:30

 

[dcsprior]

The next issue is that whilst normally the 1S25/26 locos at Euston get onto the stock pretty quickly (at Glasgow its already on of course) it's not all that common for there to be delays (issues with locos, issues with paths across the Euston throat etc etc). If the ECS loco can provide full hotel power, it can at least allow the passengers to board whilst the loco issues at the other end are resolved. This improves passenger experience and can minimise delays as you're not waiting for everyone to board once the loco issue at the country end is sorted. So again, makes sense to have a 92 on the ECS that can do this.

Do carriages in platforms take their power from the loco? I'd always assumed (probably incorrectly) that they were provided with shore power.


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[najaB]

Do carriages in platforms take their power from the loco? I'd always assumed (probably incorrectly) that they were provided with shore power.


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It's rare these days for shore supplies to be used. One example where it is (I think) - when the Royal Scotsman parks up overnight.

 

[Mag_seven]

Ye of little faith...

73968 on its way south.

I decided to chase 92010 on DC instead

Here she is seen at Wandsworth Road:

 

[BRX]

I decided to chase 92010 on DC instead

Here she is seen at Wandsworth Road:

And passing me about 5 mins previous!

 

[fgwrich]

It's rare these days for shore supplies to be used. One example where it is (I think) - when the Royal Scotsman parks up overnight.

Another is with the Caley Sleeper itself - The Fort William Portion will see it arrive, loco will run round, then shunt its stock to one of the side sidings where it gets connected to the shore supply, loco then runs off and spends the rest of the day down in the Oil Tank sidings.

 

[fgwrich]

No idea about the others, but two 92s will be out this evening 92033 will be on the southbound Highlander, and 92014 is on the Edinburgh portion of the lowlanders.

 

[TimboM]

No idea about the others, but two 92s will be out this evening 92033 will be on the southbound Highlander, and 92014 is on the Edinburgh portion of the lowlanders.

4x 92s in total, plus 1x 90 worked last night. Other locos were 92010 on northbound Highlander, 92023 on northbound Lowlander and 90042 on southbound Lowlander.

 

[StephenHunter]

Quick question - what is the shunt pattern at Edinburgh when forming the up Highland Sleeper?

 

[TimboM]

Quick question - what is the shunt pattern at Edinburgh when forming the up Highland Sleeper?

Take a look at this video https://youtu.be/5rMxkPUu2dY and its detailed Comments section. Pretty much explains how it happens - was in DB/Scotrail days, but the pattern is the same now.

In summary:

Aberdeen portion in first; diesel loco detached; electric loco for Euston attached.
Fort William portion in next and reverses onto the Aberdeen; diesel loco + additional FW-only coaches detached (coaches usually put in bay platform to add to FW Down Highlander later).
Inverness on last, reverses onto the Aberdeen/FW portions, diesel loco removed.

The electric loco is usually stabled in one of the sidings in Waverley having typically brought in the Down Highlander the night before.
The diesel locos usually head to Craigentinny once detached/completed shunting, prior to coming back into Waverley a couple of hours later for the Down Highlander portions.

 

[TimboM]

Up Lowlander (1M11) arrived 2.5 hours (150) late into Euston this morning.

Both portions arrived at Carstairs on time, but departed there 168 Late. (Unconfirmed) reports that there were issues joining the two portions together.

1S26 (Down Lowlander) also held up for best part of an hour at Preston (ultimately 30 mins late in Glasgow) - presumably as it had to wait for the driver from the Up Highlander (1M16) instead to work it North due to the delay to 1M11.

 

[InOban]

Take a look at this video https://youtu.be/5rMxkPUu2dY and its detailed Comments section. Pretty much explains how it happens - was in DB/Scotrail days, but the pattern is the same now.

In summary:

Aberdeen portion in first; diesel loco detached; electric loco for Euston attached.
Fort William portion in next and reverses onto the Aberdeen; diesel loco + additional FW-only coaches detached (coaches usually put in bay platform to add to FW Down Highlander later).
Inverness on last, reverses onto the Aberdeen/FW portions, diesel loco removed.

The electric loco is usually stabled in one of the sidings in Waverley having typically brought in the Down Highlander the night before.
The diesel locos usually head to Craigentinny once detached/completed shunting, prior to coming back into Waverley a couple of hours later for the Down Highlander portions.

What happens Northbound? It's easy to take the Aberdeen portion out, since it's the rear section, but the Inverness goes out before the FW.

 

[marks87]

What happens Northbound? It's easy to take the Aberdeen portion out, since it's the rear section, but the Inverness goes out before the FW.

Inverness is at the rear from Euston. Then Aberdeen, then Fort William.

 

[Caleb2010]

On leaving Euston the Inverness portion is at the rear, meaning it's at the front ready to depart at Edinburgh (04.15), the middle section forms the Aberdeen portion (04.43) and the front section from Euston becomes the Fort William portion (dep 04.50) - I think!

 

[TimboM]

What happens Northbound? It's easy to take the Aberdeen portion out, since it's the rear section, but the Inverness goes out before the FW.

See this post - look at the link in the quoted post first (i.e. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2961006&postcount=2923 ), then Scotrail84's update for the change in coaches to Aberdeen/Fort William over the summer months:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3051484&postcount=4116

But yes, as marks87 and Caleb2010 have said at Euston (from the buffers) it's Inverness/Aberdeen/Fort William and they depart in that order from Edinburgh.

1st diesel loco (DB 67 at the moment) attaches on the "back" and takes the Inverness away
2nd diesel loco (usually a 73/9) attaches and takes Aberdeen away
3rd diesel loco (usually a 73/9) [+ extra FW coaches] attaches (and electric loco is removed) and the diesel takes FW away.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Delightful of CS to sneak in a 10% plus price increase...non-refundable seats to FW/Inverness now £50 minimum up from £45 IIRC last time I checked recently. At least you can still get a railcard discount I suppose. For now.
That's for dates nearly a year away and for nearer, seems to be the new minimum.

 

[InOban]

See this post - look at the link in the quoted post first (i.e. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2961006&postcount=2923 ), then Scotrail84's update for the change in coaches to Aberdeen/Fort William over the summer months:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3051484&postcount=4116

But yes, as marks87 and Caleb2010 have said at Euston (from the buffers) it's Inverness/Aberdeen/Fort William and they depart in that order from Edinburgh.

1st diesel loco (DB 67 at the moment) attaches on the "back" and takes the Inverness away
2nd diesel loco (usually a 73/9) attaches and takes Aberdeen away
3rd diesel loco (usually a 73/9) [+ extra FW coaches] attaches (and electric loco is removed) and the diesel takes FW away.

Thanks. Since this is the opposite order from the southbound train, I assume that this is intended to rotate the vehicles round the destinations. And while at FW, the extras will have to be removed from the sleepers, and shunted round to the other end, since the earlier video shows them at the engine end at Waverley, so that they can be removed with the loco.

 

[BRX]

Thanks. Since this is the opposite order from the southbound train, I assume that this is intended to rotate the vehicles round the destinations. And while at FW, the extras will have to be removed from the sleepers, and shunted round to the other end, since the earlier video shows them at the engine end at Waverley, so that they can be removed with the loco.

No, I don't think the order is changed at FW. The "extra" coaches are added such that they are on the south end of the formation in both directions betwen FW/Edinburgh. I think.

 

[marks87]

Thanks. Since this is the opposite order from the southbound train, I assume that this is intended to rotate the vehicles round the destinations. And while at FW, the extras will have to be removed from the sleepers, and shunted round to the other end, since the earlier video shows them at the engine end at Waverley, so that they can be removed with the loco.

It used to be that each half-set went to Inverness at least once a week because that was the home depot, and it was either by chance or design that the various shunting, joining and splitting made that happen.

Not only does the Highlander come back from Euston in the opposite order, but the Lowlander is also reversed (Edinburgh portion joins onto the rear from Glasgow going South and is detached from the rear coming north).

By then also alternating the sets between Highlander and Lowlander (i.e. one night's up Lowlander becomes the following night's down Highlander) you did end up with every half-set getting to Inverness as some point.

I'm sure someone with more time than I could model an entire 6-night rotation!

The seated and lounge coaches for Fort William will always be at the south end. That's because they need to be next to the loco on arrival at Waverley for easy removal. Going north, I assume the loco reverses the coaches onto the rear before running round to the front.

 

[InOban]

Thanks!

 

[Caleb2010]

On the Scot-Rail site (NOT scotrail) there is a section on Sleepers. There is a diagram table for the stock based on the return to Inverness for maintenence. I would imagine that until the Mk5 stock arrives it's basically the same pattern just with maintenence done elswhere.

When the new stock arrives, it's supposedly to be used on the lowlander services until proven/enough sets available, this will be when things would change with the pattern changed to accommodate this.

Though, as usual, I may be completely wrong!

the link, should it work

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Caledonian+Sleepers

 

[TimboM]

86101 on 1S26 (northbound Lowlander) tonight

(Class 92 worked the Lowlander ECS 5S96)

 

[Far north 37]

On the Scot-Rail site (NOT scotrail) there is a section on Sleepers. There is a diagram table for the stock based on the return to Inverness for maintenence. I would imagine that until the Mk5 stock arrives it's basically the same pattern just with maintenence done elswhere.

When the new stock arrives, it's supposedly to be used on the lowlander services until proven/enough sets available, this will be when things would change with the pattern changed to accommodate this.

Though, as usual, I may be completely wrong!

the link, should it work

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Caledonian+Sleepers

no sleeper stock is diagrammed to return to inverness anymore im pretty sure since serco has took over all stock is maintained by alstom at polmadie and wembley now last time i took the sleeper to inverness the rake was severley reduced from what it used to be.

 

[Far north 37]

86101 on 1S26 (northbound Lowlander) tonight

(Class 92 worked the Lowlander ECS 5S96)

is it coming back down for maintenance? do you know if anythings going to replace it