Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[dcsprior]

The feedback I have from my contacts who are very regular sleeper users is that only a tiny proportion of repays will end up being CS's rap. As much as 90% will go back to Network Rail, and guess who's paying for that...

...the good old taxpayer. Suspect it's a small additional percentage on top of the £millions the taxpayer already contributes to the Sleeper though...!

I thought that when it came to BAU operations (as opposed toner lines/electrification projects/other upgrades/etc) Network Rail ran at break-even? Or have I got confused?

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

 

[Scotrail84]

1M16 well down. Approx 152 late. Loss of signalling between midcalder, carstairs, symington and Lanark Jn.

 

[trainophile]

1M16 well down. Approx 152 late. Loss of signalling between midcalder, carstairs, symington and Lanark Jn.

Which one is 1M16? I do wish people would bear in mind that we don't all speak headcode .

 

[Scotrail84]

Which one is 1M16? I do wish people would bear in mind that we don't all speak headcode .

Southbound highlander. The northbound highlander Inverness portion is also 120 late at Aviemore.

 

[47271]

Which one is 1M16? I do wish people would bear in mind that we don't all speak headcode [emoji38] .

1M16 is the Southbound Highlander

Northbound Highlander - 1S25 (which isn't looking too chipper either)

Southbound Lowlander - 1M11

Northbound Lowlander - 1S26

 

[Mag_seven]

Loss of signalling between midcalder, carstairs, symington and Lanark Jn.

oh oh - given this happened the other evening I hope this is not going to become a regular occurrence!

 

[TimboM]

I thought that when it came to BAU operations (as opposed toner lines/electrification projects/other upgrades/etc) Network Rail ran at break-even? Or have I got confused?

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Network Rail are "not-for-profit" and re-invest their profits back into the railway. However (based on 2016 figures) their £6bn income is 70% from direct Government Grants (DfT and Transport Scotland); 25% Track Access income from Train/Freight Operating Companies (a fair bit of which is arguably indirectly government funded) and the remaining 5% from rental income on commercial property they own.

I'm not sure if the % not from the government was matched with "BAU" costs (whatever they are) whether it would break-even or not, but then it doesn't really work like that as the infrastructure renewal/improvements is all part and parcel of what's required to keep the railways moving/improving.

For those at a loose end, Network Rail's funding arrangements and accounts can be found here... https://www.networkrail.co.uk/who-w...urces/regulatory-and-licensing/annual-report/

Overall, I think it's a fair comment to say the majority of NR's income one way or another comes from the taxpayer.

Added to that, the Sleeper is heavily subsidised itself, so a sizeable chunk of the Delay Repay paid out on Sleeper delays will ultimately come from the taxpayer (although that could be said of a lot of things in life...!)

 

[Sarahs_Railway]

Quick question - I noticed CS liveried 92 033 in the headshunt opposite Platform 7 exactly where I photographed it about three weeks ago. Is this the normal stabling point for a CS 92 when it comes off a down sleeper working or are engineering works causing a switch to 73 power as previously? There was no other CS stock in Waverley this evening around 17h00. Pics of EWS 67 (Thunderbird?) and DRS 68 on Fife Circle working at link below.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149563882@N07/

 

[Scotrail84]

Quick question - I noticed CS liveried 92 033 in the headshunt opposite Platform 7 exactly where I photographed it about three weeks ago. Is this the normal stabling point for a CS 92 when it comes off a down sleeper working or are engineering works causing a switch to 73 power as previously? There was no other CS stock in Waverley this evening around 17h00. Pics of EWS 67 (Thunderbird?) and DRS 68 on Fife Circle working at link below.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149563882@N07/

That's the loco off 1S25 which will work 1M16 later that night.

 

[Clansman]

Strange formation of the Aberdeen sleeper tonight - with the sleepers at the buffer end and the lounge and seated cars at the front, with the latter's kitchen facing the sleepers - very unusual indeed.

No idea how the portion ended up like that - must've been chopped and changed with a Fort Willy portion at some point as both portions do swap coaches a lot.

I trust Scotrail84 will know the answer to this one

 

[Sarahs_Railway]

Thank you Scotrail84. Good info. Makes sense given that the locomotive on the DN Highlander working from Euston doesn't have ECS to drag anywhere. Is there a reason why of the three CS movements to Craigentinny in early morning two go eastwards through Prestonpans and the third routes via Gorgie and Craiglockhart? I could understand this movement if the Class 73 had a Class 67 up front to provide the grunt but not if the trains are single loco. Or is this the Fort William portion with a 67 up front to keep it facing the correct way for next morning without a run around? Just curious....

 

[TimboM]

Thank you Scotrail84. Good info. Makes sense given that the locomotive on the DN Highlander working from Euston doesn't have ECS to drag anywhere. Is there a reason why of the three CS movements to Craigentinny in early morning two go eastwards through Prestonpans and the third routes via Gorgie and Craiglockhart? I could understand this movement if the Class 73 had a Class 67 up front to provide the grunt but not if the trains are single loco. Or is this the Fort William portion with a 67 up front to keep it facing the correct way for next morning without a run around? Just curious....

I think the movements you're referring to are for the 3 light engine moves for the 3 (sets of) diesel locos coming off the Southbound (Up) Highlander portions to go to Craigentinny depot for a couple of hours before returning to work the three Northbound (Down) Highlander portions from Waverley after the train splits.

The locos head off in different directions to Craigentiny as the portions are brought in in order (Aberdeen, Fort Bill, Inverness I think usually) with the loco at whatever end it's at after attaching its coaches to what's already in the platform to make up the full train to head South (hauled by the electric that's usually been sat in the bay as 92033 has been today). Hence some of the locos bringing in the North of Edinburgh portions will need to head out of Waverley one way and some the other.

I think there are more paths in than are always used so CS/GBRf have flexibility depending on loco/driver allocations for the various portions each way.

This video (including the description) may give a clearer explanation - note it was ScotRail days so the traction is different, but I believe the shunting manoeuvres are pretty much the same...

https://youtu.be/5rMxkPUu2dY

Someone like Scotrail84 will be able to explain it more clearly/accurately I suspect, but hopefully that makes some sense...?!

The coaches don't go to Craigentinny - they stay in Waverley (with the passengers) during the shunting and then head off either as a single train South (Up Highlander) hauled by the 92 (or 90) or split 3 ways and go North (Down Highlander) with 67 or 73s.

Incidentally the 73s don't work with the 67s (usually at least). The 73s were working with 66s for a bit due to alternator problems but that's pretty much sorted now I think and 66s aren't normally involved these days. The current typical traction in recent weeks is:

Aberdeen - 1x 73/9
Fort Bill - 1x 73/9
Inverness - 1x 67*

*The Inverness in time will be 2x 73/9s, and has been once or twice in recent weeks, however it's currently the DB 67, which is being loaned to GBRf as a "courtesy loco" after 73969 got bashed in a shunting accident at Craigentinny and is out of action at Loughborough getting repaired.

 

[TimboM]

...Pics of EWS 67 (Thunderbird?)...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149563882@N07/

Yes, that EWS 67 is one of the VTEC Thunderbird locos.

 

[Scotrail84]

Strange formation of the Aberdeen sleeper tonight - with the sleepers at the buffer end and the lounge and seated cars at the front, with the latter's kitchen facing the sleepers - very unusual indeed.

No idea how the portion ended up like that - must've been chopped and changed with a Fort Willy portion at some point as both portions do swap coaches a lot.

I trust Scotrail84 will know the answer to this one

Was deliberately shunted into that formation at Aberdeen as the 2 coaches are swapping with the ft willy tonight. The lounge and seated coach from ft William will continue right through to London tonight instead of the usual shunt at Edinburgh.

 

[Scotrail84]

Thank you Scotrail84. Good info. Makes sense given that the locomotive on the DN Highlander working from Euston doesn't have ECS to drag anywhere. Is there a reason why of the three CS movements to Craigentinny in early morning two go eastwards through Prestonpans and the third routes via Gorgie and Craiglockhart? I could understand this movement if the Class 73 had a Class 67 up front to provide the grunt but not if the trains are single loco. Or is this the Fort William portion with a 67 up front to keep it facing the correct way for next morning without a run around? Just curious....

For route retention and in case there's any possessions blocking one of the entrances to Craiggy. However most nights all locos head to craiggy via abbeyhill as they get fuelled and serviced down there and sometimes there's a short turnaround time.

 

[Scotrail84]

I think the movements you're referring to are for the 3 light engine moves for the 3 (sets of) diesel locos coming off the Southbound (Up) Highlander portions to go to Craigentinny depot for a couple of hours before returning to work the three Northbound (Down) Highlander portions from Waverley after the train splits.

The locos head off in different directions to Craigentiny as the portions are brought in in order (Aberdeen, Fort Bill, Inverness I think usually) with the loco at whatever end it's at after attaching its coaches to what's already in the platform to make up the full train to head South (hauled by the electric that's usually been sat in the bay as 92033 has been today). Hence some of the locos bringing in the North of Edinburgh portions will need to head out of Waverley one way and some the other.

I think there are more paths in than are always used so CS/GBRf have flexibility depending on loco/driver allocations for the various portions each way.

This video (including the description) may give a clearer explanation - note it was ScotRail days so the traction is different, but I believe the shunting manoeuvres are pretty much the same...

https://youtu.be/5rMxkPUu2dY

Someone like Scotrail84 will be able to explain it more clearly/accurately I suspect, but hopefully that makes some sense...?!

The coaches don't go to Craigentinny - they stay in Waverley (with the passengers) during the shunting and then head off either as a single train South (Up Highlander) hauled by the 92 (or 90) or split 3 ways and go North (Down Highlander) with 67 or 73s.

Incidentally the 73s don't work with the 67s (usually at least). The 73s were working with 66s for a bit due to alternator problems but that's pretty much sorted now I think and 66s aren't normally involved these days. The current typical traction in recent weeks is:

Aberdeen - 1x 73/9
Fort Bill - 1x 73/9
Inverness - 1x 67*

*The Inverness in time will be 2x 73/9s, and has been once or twice in recent weeks, however it's currently the DB 67, which is being loaned to GBRf as a "courtesy loco" after 73969 got bashed in a shunting accident at Craigentinny and is out of action at Loughborough getting repaired.

Pretty much sums it up.

 

[Sarahs_Railway]

Many thanks Timbo. As a regular traveller on the Aberdeen portion I have always been sound asleep when I get shunted around Waverley - albeit it is only 40 minutes from Kirkcaldy - the gentle rocking is so soporific I am as dead as a door nail when I get to EDB unless I am in the Lounge car sampling the rather good food on offer with a cheeky wee glass or three of red. Funnily enough on the way north I am woken at EDB with a coffee before we set off towards the Granite City but always crash out again before wakening as the wheels change note as we cross the grand old lady of the Forth Bridge. I can only praise all of the staff on the CS for their unstinting good humour and manners and hope that they are appreciated by their employer. It was the Customer Relations of the staff at Edinburgh Waverley that switched me from flying - the staff at Waverley were so courteous and helpful that they knocked a certain airLine into the bin as far as I am concerned.
Next week I am hoping to spare a night to go to Waverley and watch (and maybe even photograph if I can work it out!) how the CS joins and divides simply out of curiosity. Or am I just being a complete sad case?

 

[Sarahs_Railway]

I think the movements you're referring to are for the 3 light engine moves for the 3 (sets of) diesel locos coming off the Southbound (Up) Highlander portions to go to Craigentinny depot for a couple of hours before returning to work the three Northbound (Down) Highlander portions from Waverley after the train splits.

The locos head off in different directions to Craigentiny as the portions are brought in in order (Aberdeen, Fort Bill, Inverness I think usually) with the loco at whatever end it's at after attaching its coaches to what's already in the platform to make up the full train to head South (hauled by the electric that's usually been sat in the bay as 92033 has been today). Hence some of the locos bringing in the North of Edinburgh portions will need to head out of Waverley one way and some the other.

I think there are more paths in than are always used so CS/GBRf have flexibility depending on loco/driver allocations for the various portions each way.

This video (including the description) may give a clearer explanation - note it was ScotRail days so the traction is different, but I believe the shunting manoeuvres are pretty much the same...

https://youtu.be/5rMxkPUu2dY

Someone like Scotrail84 will be able to explain it more clearly/accurately I suspect, but hopefully that makes some sense...?!

The coaches don't go to Craigentinny - they stay in Waverley (with the passengers) during the shunting and then head off either as a single train South (Up Highlander) hauled by the 92 (or 90) or split 3 ways and go North (Down Highlander) with 67 or 73s.

Incidentally the 73s don't work with the 67s (usually at least). The 73s were working with 66s for a bit due to alternator problems but that's pretty much sorted now I think and 66s aren't normally involved these days. The current typical traction in recent weeks is:

Aberdeen - 1x 73/9
Fort Bill - 1x 73/9
Inverness - 1x 67*

*The Inverness in time will be 2x 73/9s, and has been once or twice in recent weeks, however it's currently the DB 67, which is being loaned to GBRf as a "courtesy loco" after 73969 got bashed in a shunting accident at Craigentinny and is out of action at Loughborough getting repaired.

My apologies Timbo - for 67 read 66. Every time I took the Up Sleeper it was GBRF 66 hauled [Bluebell Railway on one night] and not 67 with the 73 tucked in behind. I have no idea what hauled the down portions as I was always in the rear sleeper and Kirkcaldy Station curves away from the viewer. The Sleeper doesn't hang around when only three people get off so I didnt get a chance to see what was up front.

 

[TimboM]

Next week I am hoping to spare a night to go to Waverley and watch (and maybe even photograph if I can work it out!) how the CS joins and divides simply out of curiosity. Or am I just being a complete sad case?

I think you're in good company on here
There's plenty of folk who do all-nighters to photograph/video freights, sleepers etc.

I don't know what the protocol is for Waverley in the middle of the night, though? Presumably the station is closed to the public - I think those who've got photos/videos tend to be on the sleeper themselves (and even then I don't think they're supposed to alight as it's not an advertised stop, and there's a lot of shunting manoeuvres going on).
I'm sure someone on here can advise what's possible/allowed or not.

My apologies Timbo - for 67 read 66. Every time I took the Up Sleeper it was GBRF 66 hauled [Bluebell Railway on one night] and not 67 with the 73 tucked in behind. I have no idea what hauled the down portions as I was always in the rear sleeper and Kirkcaldy Station curves away from the viewer. The Sleeper doesn't hang around when only three people get off so I didnt get a chance to see what was up front.

The 66s are only used as a last resort in 'emergencies' now. When the 73s were having their alternator issues and prior to getting fixed, the 66s would effectively be providing the traction, but as they don't have ETS, the 73s were acting as glorified "ETHELS" there really just to power the heat/lighting.

It's not always the case, but typically whatever takes the portion south, takes it north later; so if you were getting 73/66 combos back then, chances were you were getting the same on the Northbound leg.

 

[BRX]

Fairly sure that when I've travelled on the seated coach to fort william, when you need to alight at edinburgh to change coaches, no-one's complained about me standing on the platform watching the shunts go on. Last time i did that was a while ago though.

 

[Scotrail84]

I think you're in good company on here
There's plenty of folk who do all-nighters to photograph/video freights, sleepers etc.

I don't know what the protocol is for Waverley in the middle of the night, though? Presumably the station is closed to the public - I think those who've got photos/videos tend to be on the sleeper themselves (and even then I don't think they're supposed to alight as it's not an advertised stop, and there's a lot of shunting manoeuvres going on).
I'm sure someone on here can advise what's possible/allowed or not.



The 66s are only used as a last resort in 'emergencies' now. When the 73s were having their alternator issues and prior to getting fixed, the 66s would effectively be providing the traction, but as they don't have ETS, the 73s were acting as glorified "ETHELS" there really just to power the heat/lighting.

It's not always the case, but typically whatever takes the portion south, takes it north later; so if you were getting 73/66 combos back then, chances were you were getting the same on the Northbound leg.

You can't stay in the station overnight, to view the shunts you would need to a passenger on the train to see them. If you're on the inverness southbound you can't even get off as the doors do not get released.

 

[GW43125]

You can't stay in the station overnight, to view the shunts you would need to a passenger on the train to see them. If you're on the inverness southbound you can't even get off as the doors do not get released.

Don't FW seated have to move into the Inverness seated portion?

 

[najaB]

Don't FW seated have to move into the Inverness seated portion?

It's the Aberdeen portion.

 

[GW43125]

It's the Aberdeen portion.

Ah. Thanks.

 

[Scotrail84]

Fairly sure that when I've travelled on the seated coach to fort william, when you need to alight at edinburgh to change coaches, no-one's complained about me standing on the platform watching the shunts go on. Last time i did that was a while ago though.

Passengers travelling south changing from Ft William to the Aberdeen seats are encouraged to do so as quickly as possible and not hang around the platforms filming and taking photos.

1, they get in the way of the staff trying to do their jobs.

2, doors must now be closed and locked for shunting to take place so everyone should be boarded asap so the moves can take place. Last thing the crew want is people on the platforms filming and photographing as its hard enough to get a right time departure without having to chase up stragglers because they wanted a photo.

Northbound its slightly different as theres more time but nobody can alight for Edinburgh as its not a booked stop.

 

[Scotrail84]

Don't FW seated have to move into the Inverness seated portion?

No, always has been the Aberdeen

 

[GW43125]

2, doors must now be closed and locked for shunting to take place so everyone should be boarded asap so the moves can take place. Last thing the crew want is people on the platforms filming and photographing as its hard enough to get a right time departure without having to chase up stragglers because they wanted a photo.

Fair point, a friend of mine nearly got left behind at Carstairs doing this!

 

[Scotrail84]

Fair point, a friend of mine nearly got left behind at Carstairs doing this!

Carstairs southbound is a Glasgow portion pickup and Northbound its an Edinburgh portion set down but nobody should really be getting off to film shunts etc.

 

[GW43125]

Carstairs southbound is a Glasgow portion pickup and Northbound its an Edinburgh portion set down but nobody should really be getting off to film shunts etc.

I'm aware of this.

 

[Scotrail84]

I'm aware of this.

Thats good then.