Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[Fishplate84]

Citation required.

This is the problem with railways. While the world is progressing around them, utter paranoia and extreme risk-averseness means the railways are stuck in the past.

We have sleeping pods on aircraft and you are basically in a fully shrouded environment, with barriers / walls on at least 3 sides.
We have autopilot and almost completely computer controlled aircraft.
We are starting to have driverless cars running around in the extremely chaotic and unpredictable city street.

Rail is proven to be extremely safe but it baffles me how being naked standing in a slippery shower with soap and suds all over the floor is somehow fine?
It baffles me that it is considered safe for hundreds of people to stand crammed on a station platform only a couple of meters away from a passing high speed train protected by nothing more than a line painted on the ground.
But yet, the concept of a purpose designed pod is considered too risky for what is a tiny tiny handful of specialist capacity running around the rail network.

All credit to Serco for proposing something new and interesting and Transport Scotland for its support of this. I think its a case of the rail industry and approval process choking off and stifling innovation with 'not invented here' syndrome.

This is at the root of rail lagging further and further behind the progress of other modes. All the industry seems to be capable is adding ever higher backrests to block any view out of the train, and more and more primary coloured hand rails.

Stuff happens. On rail it happens extremely infrequently. I wish the system would allow the scope for a bit more freedom and innovation. Rail travel would benefit tremendously from it.

 

[BRX]

This is the problem with railways. While the world is progressing around them, utter paranoia and extreme risk-averseness means the railways are stuck in the past.

We have sleeping pods on aircraft and you are basically in a fully shrouded environment, with barriers / walls on at least 3 sides.
We have autopilot and almost completely computer controlled aircraft.
We are starting to have driverless cars running around in the extremely chaotic and unpredictable city street.

Rail is proven to be extremely safe but it baffles me how being naked standing in a slippery shower with soap and suds all over the floor is somehow fine?
It baffles me that it is considered safe for hundreds of people to stand crammed on a station platform only a couple of meters away from a passing high speed train protected by nothing more than a line painted on the ground.
But yet, the concept of a purpose designed pod is considered too risky for what is a tiny tiny handful of specialist capacity running around the rail network.

All credit to Serco for proposing something new and interesting and Transport Scotland for its support of this. I think its a case of the rail industry and approval process choking off and stifling innovation with 'not invented here' syndrome.

This is at the root of rail lagging further and further behind the progress of other modes. All the industry seems to be capable is adding ever higher backrests to block any view out of the train, and more and more primary coloured hand rails.

Stuff happens. On rail it happens extremely infrequently. I wish the system would allow the scope for a bit more freedom and innovation. Rail travel would benefit tremendously from it.

I agree

 

[TimboM]

...it baffles me how being naked standing in a slippery shower with soap and suds all over the floor is somehow fine?

The H&S police will probably only permit showering in stations...!

On a more serious note, your post is spot on.

 

[BRX]

And in terms of relative risk, never mind standing on platforms metres away from passing trains... how about the millions of pedestrians who, every day, walk alongside fast moving road traffic protected by nothing other than a 10cm high kerb and the faith that car drivers can use a steering wheel to keep their wheels pointing in the right direction.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks to all for the information on the Sleeper guards

 

[Shinkansenfan]

This is the problem with railways. While the world is progressing around them, utter paranoia and extreme risk-averseness means the railways are stuck in the past.

Very much agree with this post. Fortunately, not all railways world wide are risk adverse. The attached photos show lie flat Business Class seats on the Chinese HSR trains.

View attachment 32405

View attachment 32406

View attachment 32407


In an earlier post in this thread, I mentioned that the Shinkansen Gran Class had lie flat seating; it turns out is is not quite lie flat, but more of a deep reclining seat with leg rests (akin to older generation airline Business Class seats).

Still, it is comfortable seating with first class service to match!

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/315322411395539323/

 

[Scotrail84]

The H&S police will probably only permit showering in stations...!

On a more serious note, your post is spot on.

Definitely showers on new trains. Will have non slip floors and hand rails as well as timers.

 

[TimboM]

Definitely showers on new trains. Will have non slip floors and hand rails as well as timers.

I'm assuming the timers are to ensure appropriate distribution of water (and to some extent power) supplies across the berths?

 

[paul1609]

The logic here works well for the Lowlander, and especially its Edinburgh section. No disrespect to Glasgow's thriving visitor market, but I'm not sure how much super premium overnight tourist business will ever materialise to and from that city. I foresee a lot of dynamic pricing at work...

However, the particular regular users I know, and those who are concerned about getting priced off the train, are Highlander passengers from Speyside and Perthshire. In their case any other means of getting to and from London other than on the sleeper is a gross inconvenience, but one that their employers will put them through if the cost of each single journey rises to more than that of a night in a decent central London hotel.

Bear in mind that they can be worth around £10k a year each to CS, some of them even more than that, and that's before you take their lounge spend into account.



Being prepared to lose this business, and to run winter trains near empty, strikes me as careless at the very best.

Realistically a lot of the business custom was lost when the Solo cabin supplement on standard class tickets was abolished. £150 single plus an expensive Anytime ticket for the portion south of London means that the sleeper is already out of the price range of most Southern based Business travellers. Whilst there may be a residual niche business traffic from way up the highland line there are probably more Railway Priv tourists than business travellers these days and the business is almost entirely leisure orientated.

For comparison I flew North from Gatwick last night to Glasgow at 21.45 for £38 on British Airways booked 2 days in advance.

 

[Scotrail84]

I'm assuming the timers are to ensure appropriate distribution of water (and to some extent power) supplies across the berths?

Not convinced they'll be a success but time will tell.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Whilst there may be a residual niche business traffic from way up the highland line there are probably more Railway Priv tourists than business travellers these days and the business is almost entirely leisure orientated.

PRIV availability is quite restricted, it's around 10% of the available berths onboard, I've maxed out availability for them on one for some friends to go on a drinking trip to Aberdeen.

 

[Fishplate84]

The H&S police will probably only permit showering in stations...!

On a more serious note, your post is spot on.

That'll do wonders for the turnaround times.

I'd trade the sleeping pods for the showers any day. I think you'd have to be a bit odd to prefer a tiny shower cubicle on the train over a short walk to the first class lounge showers on the station.
Although the ones at Euston should be an embarrassment to Virgin, the others available are pretty good.

You can see what Serco have been trying to achieve in those places where they have direct control on how it's delivered. It's very noticeable where they have to work with partners to deliver part of the product that railway intransigence and self interest has been successful at destroying the customer experience.

 

[Fishplate84]

Very much agree with this post. Fortunately, not all railways world wide are risk adverse. The attached photos show lie flat Business Class seats on the Chinese HSR trains.

View attachment 32405

View attachment 32406

View attachment 32407


In an earlier post in this thread, I mentioned that the Shinkansen Gran Class had lie flat seating; it turns out is is not quite lie flat, but more of a deep reclining seat with leg rests (akin to older generation airline Business Class seats).

Still, it is comfortable seating with first class service to match!

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/315322411395539323/

Wow - thats incredible. It's just depressing that in the UK this sort of thing is utterly unachievable. We're probably still arguing whether there should be a fireman on the train to comply with some safety risk that hasn't been around since the mid 60's and who presses the damn door buttons.
It really is pathetic when you think about it.

With this attitude we deserve for our proud industrial heritage and tradition to be destroyed by much more progressive and forward thinking and hungry nations. And it saddens me to say that.

 

[Fishplate84]

Definitely showers on new trains. Will have non slip floors and hand rails as well as timers.

Whoop whoop - non slip floors, handrails and timers. I rest my case. Go get them. This should be a total no brainer but will probably form the core of any press release!

Digital water and temperature control, water recycling, low power consumption?? I doubt these will have even get a look in. It'll be a pumped pipe from a tank just as it was done in the 1960's probably and we'll think we're being cutting edge.

 

[Scotrail84]

Whoop whoop - non slip floors, handrails and timers. I rest my case. Go get them. This should be a total no brainer but will probably form the core of any press release!

Digital water and temperature control, water recycling, low power consumption?? I doubt these will have even get a look in. It'll be a pumped pipe from a tank just as it was done in the 1960's probably and we'll think we're being cutting edge.

Yeah well nobody is forcing you to use the service.....:roll:

 

[Scotrail84]

PRIV availability is quite restricted, it's around 10% of the available berths onboard, I've maxed out availability for them on one for some friends to go on a drinking trip to Aberdeen.

How can you buy privs for friends? Do they have toc priv cards?

 

[marks87]

Perhaps I'm missing something, what else is a shower other than a "pumped pipe", and how else do you propose to get water on a train other than "from a tank"?

 

[route101]

How can you buy privs for friends? Do they have toc priv cards?

When i was younger my mate had a priv and bought tickets for me , we were travelling together ,£2 anywhere . They never asked until one day one scotrail guard told us to buy new tickets .

 

[TimboM]

Not convinced they'll be a success but time will tell.

Planning on splashing out on one of the en suites for a special birthday next year, so I'll report back of they're any good at accommodating 6'3" folk!

As per previous posts, I suspect it's the price that'll be critical in their success/uptake. It's something I'd have appreciated travelling on the Sleeper for business in the past, but these days a lot of company travel policies will only allow Standard; or get the plane/hotel if cheaper. So then becomes a luxury option for the leisure traveller.

 

[Scotrail84]

When i was younger my mate had a priv and bought tickets for me , we were travelling together ,£2 anywhere . They never asked until one day one scotrail guard told us to buy new tickets .

Well the guard was correct. Thats fraud.

 

[Scotrail84]

Planning on splashing out on one of the en suites for a special birthday next year, so I'll report back of they're any good at accommodating 6'3" folk!

As per previous posts, I suspect it's the price that'll be critical in their success/uptake. It's something I'd have appreciated travelling on the Sleeper for business in the past, but these days a lot of company travel policies will only allow Standard; or get the plane/hotel if cheaper. So then becomes a luxury option for the leisure traveller.

I hope you got a spare £300+ lying around then

 

[InOban]

It occurs to me that one genuine problem they may have faced comes from the fact that both trains split into two or three portions. If the whole train was going from A to Be then it would quite feasible to have a range of 'offers' at different price points, all the way from seated to Grande Luxe ensuite. As with a full-service airline, there would be the possibility of people being bumped up, as from economy to premium economy to business to first. But with splitting into smaller portions, this becomes unmanageable.

But seriously I am amused by the enthusiasm for the discussion of a peripheral train service. I would have taken the entire budget, capital and operating, for the new trains and spent it on improving the HML and the WHL. They could even have arranged for an extra mini-HST to​ operate an additional daytime service between QS and FW, with a pause at Rannoch and/or Corrour to appreciate the scenery.

 

[TimboM]

I hope you got a spare £300+ lying around then

Saving up now!! I guess I'll have to take Mrs M, too - so not sure if that costs more, or that's the rough price per "room"...

This is the thing though, it's a once a decade (special birthday with a 0 on the end) treat at best and even then I appreciate I'll be fortunate enough to be able to afford it even for that (I hope!)

 

[TimboM]

But seriously I am amused by the enthusiasm for the discussion of a peripheral train service. I would have taken the entire budget, capital and operating, for the new trains and spent it on improving the HML and the WHL. They could even have arranged for an extra mini-HST to​ operate an additional daytime service between QS and FW, with a pause at Rannoch and/or Corrour to appreciate the scenery.

On paper it is a peripheral train service, but from a tourism and political perspective it is considerably more, hence the fact it is subsidised to the tune of many millions each year by the UK/Scottish governments (and this also in part is the reason it attracts enthusiastic enthusiasts attention - together with the "romance" of sleeper trains I guess...)

If it was run as a purely commercial proposition needing to make a stand-alone profit it most likely wouldn't be here any more.

 

[Scotrail84]

1S25 has 90 016 on it tonight.

 

[InOban]

I appreciate that the FW sleeper is ironic. I'm just not into worshipping icons.

 

[TimboM]

1S25 has 90 016 on it tonight.

90049 is stabled in Edinburgh too I believe, having taken up 1S25 last night, so may well be working 1M16 back tonight. Class 90s stretching their legs last few nights it seems - and a Class 92 convention at Willesden TMD (92010, 023 and 032 all there I think).

(92038 headed to Waverley earlier with the Edinburgh portion empties, so could feasibly switch with 90049 and take 1M16.)

92033 looks to be on 1M11 and 92014 on 1S26 it would appear, so the Lowlanders are 92 hauled.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Lucky punters. Bring on the 90 thrash!

 

[BRX]

I appreciate that the FW sleeper is ironic. I'm just not into worshipping icons.

The FW sleeper is one icon I'm happy to worship

 

[InOban]

But why should everyone subsidise your religion?