Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[Blindtraveler]

And that day train has a number of downsides, namely no catering, later departure/arrival and its a 170!
Yep Id really feel Id had value for my money

 

[BRX]

The timings for the sleeper doesn't exactly help the patronage either - especially onboard the Aberdeen sleeper. I've been on the Aberdeen sleeper countless times to know that Aberdeen at 7:30 is a depressing place - nothing is open and the sun is barely up. .

Do they boot you off the train at 7.30 or can you stay asleep a bit longer if you want?

Perhaps there should be some slip coaches that detach at Dundee and sit there for a couple of hours without waking people up....

 

[anti-pacer]

The Fort William sleeper is currently 46 minutes down, which is a bit of a let down for anyone wishing to connect with the Mallaig steam train.

 

[TimboM]

The Fort William sleeper is currently 46 minutes down, which is a bit of a let down for anyone wishing to connect with the Mallaig steam train.

A little surprised they didn't hold the steam train given there'd be a fair few people connecting from the Sleeper you'd think - and it's not exactly a busy line.

That said it would delay passengers starting at Fort William and also not sure how feasible it is to keep a kettle "ticking over" for 45 mins.

 

[GW43125]

Yes because you can guarantee there will be room elsewhere to accommodate them. Is it really fair to put them in a bed for a few hours then make them get up to get a day train? No, it's not.

If it's between half a sleep or wait for the first train off KGX, I know which I'd pick!

 

[TimboM]

Do they boot you off the train at 7.30 or can you stay asleep a bit longer if you want?

Perhaps there should be some slip coaches that detach at Dundee and sit there for a couple of hours without waking people up....

I believe passengers are booted off pretty promptly at Aberdeen - presumably to get the platform cleared for other services. The ECS move to Clayhills depot is scheduled to leave 39 mins after the train gets in. Today for example it left after just 23 mins, indicating rapid booting off!

Re Dundee idea, operationally too challenging I'd expect. Would need another shunting team and more dwell time at Dundee and also you'd then either need to run those coaches up ECS (another loco/driver) or pick them up on the way back (see above challenges). Would also need loadings across only 2 or 3 sleeper cars (which isn't going to change as per above discussion) to work out in the right proportion every night to allow this split.

Not impossible, but probably too difficult!

Another idea (subject to paths being available and crew hours etc) would be to hold the train longer (say an hour) at somewhere like Waverley or looped somewhere prior to Dundee at a time most pax would be sound asleep. Getting to Aberdeen c08:30 would still be OK for most business meetings etc and would mean a slightly more palatable arrival at Dundee (7am vs 6am). Also an extra hour to absorb delays...

 

[marks87]

I believe passengers are booted off pretty promptly at Aberdeen - presumably to get the platform cleared for other services. The ECS move to Clayhills depot is scheduled to leave 39 mins after the train gets in. Today for example it left after just 23 mins, indicating rapid booting off!

Re Dundee idea, operationally too challenging I'd expect. Would need another shunting team and more dwell time at Dundee and also you'd then either need to run those coaches up ECS (another loco/driver) or pick them up on the way back (see above challenges). Would also need loadings across only 2 or 3 sleeper cars (which isn't going to change as per above discussion) to work out in the right proportion every night to allow this split.

Not impossible, but probably too difficult!

Dwell time wouldn't be insurmountable - dump the stock in platform 1N, while still maintaining a through connection via the passing loop and 1S.

Although it does so happen that, remarkably, that time of the morning is one of the most congested. You've got a Carnoustie terminator arriving into platform 1N, the ECS for the 0632 XC to Plymouth arriving into 1S and an Inverurie service passing through 4.

I suppose the XC service could depart from platform 2 (long enough for a 5-car Voyager) and the Carnoustie could take over 1S. But that still doesn't address the logistical problem of having a sleeper coach sitting without traction.

Another idea (subject to paths being available and crew hours etc) would be to hold the train longer (say an hour) at somewhere like Waverley or looped somewhere prior to Dundee at a time most pax would be sound asleep. Getting to Aberdeen c08:30 would still be OK for most business meetings etc and would mean a slightly more palatable arrival at Dundee (7am vs 6am). Also an extra hour to absorb delays...

What's the Fife patronage like? Would looping round via Dunfermline cause any issues?

 

[anti-pacer]

A little surprised they didn't hold the steam train given there'd be a fair few people connecting from the Sleeper you'd think - and it's not exactly a busy line.

That said it would delay passengers starting at Fort William and also not sure how feasible it is to keep a kettle "ticking over" for 45 mins.

I called West Coast Railway about this as my partner and I are intending to do that train as part of an ALR week (paying for this seperately of course). I wanted to know what can be done in terms of refunds, etc. Nothing basically was the answer. Well, not through them anyway. Making a claim through Serco was the advice.

I noticed that Delay Repay offers 50% refund on delays of more than 30 mins. How would this work with an ALR, and are Serco likely to cough up for missing the WCR service?

 

[Scotrail84]

If it's between half a sleep or wait for the first train off KGX, I know which I'd pick!

Do you actually know how service works or are you just assuming you'd get relocated, then a day train? Doesn't work like that.

 

[Scotrail84]

I believe passengers are booted off pretty promptly at Aberdeen - presumably to get the platform cleared for other services. The ECS move to Clayhills depot is scheduled to leave 39 mins after the train gets in. Today for example it left after just 23 mins, indicating rapid booting off!

Re Dundee idea, operationally too challenging I'd expect. Would need another shunting team and more dwell time at Dundee and also you'd then either need to run those coaches up ECS (another loco/driver) or pick them up on the way back (see above challenges). Would also need loadings across only 2 or 3 sleeper cars (which isn't going to change as per above discussion) to work out in the right proportion every night to allow this split.

Not impossible, but probably too difficult!

Another idea (subject to paths being available and crew hours etc) would be to hold the train longer (say an hour) at somewhere like Waverley or looped somewhere prior to Dundee at a time most pax would be sound asleep. Getting to Aberdeen c08:30 would still be OK for most business meetings etc and would mean a slightly more palatable arrival at Dundee (7am vs 6am). Also an extra hour to absorb delays...

Never going to happen.

 

[Scotrail84]

Do they boot you off the train at 7.30 or can you stay asleep a bit longer if you want?

Perhaps there should be some slip coaches that detach at Dundee and sit there for a couple of hours without waking people up....

Never in a month of Sundays. You can't provide power to the coaches for a start. You need a Brake van as mk3 vehs cannot be left on their own without one. You'd need a member of staff to stay on the coaches, then there the complex shunts. Dundee bay platforms are used constantly throughout the day anyway

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never in a month of Sundays. You can't provide power to the coaches for a start. You need a Brake van as mk3 vehs cannot be left on their own without one. You'd need a member of staff to stay on the coaches, then there the complex shunts. Dundee bay platforms are used constantly throughout the day anyway

Exactly that feature was removed from the Cornish sleeper (Plymouth) because of the cost.

 

[Scotrail84]

Dwell time wouldn't be insurmountable - dump the stock in platform 1N, while still maintaining a through connection via the passing loop and 1S.

Although it does so happen that, remarkably, that time of the morning is one of the most congested. You've got a Carnoustie terminator arriving into platform 1N, the ECS for the 0632 XC to Plymouth arriving into 1S and an Inverurie service passing through 4.

I suppose the XC service could depart from platform 2 (long enough for a 5-car Voyager) and the Carnoustie could take over 1S. But that still doesn't address the logistical problem of having a sleeper coach sitting without traction.



What's the Fife patronage like? Would looping round via Dunfermline cause any issues?

Yes, offshore workers use it for flights to their rigs from Dyce and people catch ferries from Aberdeen as well.

 

[Scotrail84]

Exactly that feature was removed from the Cornish sleeper (Plymouth) because of the cost.

No wonder. The sleeper needs to make money, not lose it by doing pointless moves. They will make their money when the new stock starts, thats for sure.

 

[marks87]

Yes, offshore workers use it for flights to their rigs from Dyce and people catch ferries from Aberdeen as well.

Sorry, but what's that got to do with Fife?

 

[BRX]

I called West Coast Railway about this as my partner and I are intending to do that train as part of an ALR week (paying for this seperately of course). I wanted to know what can be done in terms of refunds, etc. Nothing basically was the answer. Well, not through them anyway. Making a claim through Serco was the advice.

I noticed that Delay Repay offers 50% refund on delays of more than 30 mins. How would this work with an ALR, and are Serco likely to cough up for missing the WCR service?

I wouldn't have thought so, because you wouldn't have a through ticket. Serco are not selling you a ticket through to Mallaig.

When I use the FW sleeper I am usually travelling on through to Mallaig. I wouldn't risk booking on the steam train because of the likelihood of the sleeper being delayed. In the past, I've travelled up on the steam train using "standing" tickets which they often will sell at the last minute.

The connections to mallaig are a bit rubbish - the steam train is too tight to guarantee a connection and the next scotrail service involves quite a long wait (I have been known to fill this with a cheap breakfast in the Morrissons cafe across from the station).

Then when you get to Mallaig there seems to be no attempt to co-ordinate trains and ferry times. This seems to change every year but last time I did the trip I seem to remember there was something like 5 minutes between train arrival and ferry departure - if it were only held for another ten minutes the connection would be feasible.

All of this combined means that while in theory you ought to be able to be on the isle of skye within 2 or 3 hours of the sleeper getting into FW, in reality it takes up the best part of a day.

 

[BRX]

Never in a month of Sundays. You can't provide power to the coaches for a start. You need a Brake van as mk3 vehs cannot be left on their own without one. You'd need a member of staff to stay on the coaches, then there the complex shunts. Dundee bay platforms are used constantly throughout the day anyway

Wasn't a serious suggestion.

In a hypothetical future world where the demand and necessary technology was there perhaps. But - in such an imaginary scenario - maybe Dundee would make more sense as an extension of the Edinburgh service.

 

[InOban]

I called West Coast Railway about this as my partner and I are intending to do that train as part of an ALR week (paying for this seperately of course). I wanted to know what can be done in terms of refunds, etc. Nothing basically was the answer. Well, not through them anyway. Making a claim through Serco was the advice.

I noticed that Delay Repay offers 50% refund on delays of more than 30 mins. How would this work with an ALR, and are Serco likely to cough up for missing the WCR service?

I don't think the 'kettle' starts until late may, but anyway the CS passes the early train from Oban at Ardlui and the early from Ft W at Rannoch. If it is running more than a few minutes late then it will have to be held at Arrochar and Bridge of Orchy, so it will immediately become 28 min late, the time allowed for the CS between B of O and Rannoch. To delay the day trains would disrupt the timetable for the whole day.

 

[Chrism20]

Another idea (subject to paths being available and crew hours etc) would be to hold the train longer (say an hour) at somewhere like Waverley or looped somewhere prior to Dundee at a time most pax would be sound asleep. Getting to Aberdeen c08:30 would still be OK for most business meetings etc and would mean a slightly more palatable arrival at Dundee (7am vs 6am). Also an extra hour to absorb delays...

8:30am would not be suitable for an arrival into Aberdeen unless you totally rebuilt Aberdeens road network.

There is huge amounts of business/industry out at Bridge of Don, Dyce, Westhill etc.

30 minutes to get to some of those places from Guild Street would be seriously pushing it.

 

[paul1609]

Yes, offshore workers use it for flights to their rigs from Dyce and people catch ferries from Aberdeen as well.

Its been a requirement for Offshore workers to live within 2 to 3 hours of Dyce for some years, I can't see many people would use the sleeper.
As far as Im aware the only ferry that operates from Aberdeen these days is up to the Orkneys and Shetlands and they travel overnight leaving Aberdeen 1700/1900 ash and arriving at 0700.
Im not sure why you'd use the sleeper and wait all day for your ship when there are day time trains that connect even from London and the South Coast.

 

[BRX]

I assume that not everyone who needs to get to the rigs works there as their main job location.

 

[sng7]

I don't think the 'kettle' starts until late may,.

The main season started this week, (And I think there was some over easter as well)

 

[Far north 37]

Its been a requirement for Offshore workers to live within 2 to 3 hours of Dyce for some years, I can't see many people would use the sleeper.
As far as Im aware the only ferry that operates from Aberdeen these days is up to the Orkneys and Shetlands and they travel overnight leaving Aberdeen 1700/1900 ash and arriving at 0700.
Im not sure why you'd use the sleeper and wait all day for your ship when there are day time trains that connect even from London and the South Coast.

i worked offshore for years never has there been a rule stating that you have to live within 2-3 hours of dyce worked with guys who live as far away as spain and even thailand. a good portion of the north sea workforce comes from the the north east of england ie newcastle middlesborough if it was a rule you had to live within 2-3 hours of dyce the whole of the northern sector of the north sea just wouldnt function.

 

[anti-pacer]

i worked offshore for years never has there been a rule stating that you have to live within 2-3 hours of dyce worked with guys who live as far away as spain and even thailand. a good portion of the north sea workforce comes from the the north east of england ie newcastle middlesborough if it was a rule you had to live within 2-3 hours of dyce the whole of the northern sector of the north sea just wouldnt function.

We're going back some now but I once worked for a company called James Scott in Great Yarmouth. My job was to supply personnel for oil rigs, including booking train tickets for the workers, and accommodation. Like you said, many were from the North East, and I probably booked more train tickets from Newcastle than anywhere else. Grimsby and Glasgow were popular too for some reason.

 

[TimboM]

1S25 (Down Highlander) appears to be still sat at Euston an hour after scheduled departure time...

"Currently being delayed by a train fault..." per CS on Twitter.

That could be anything...!

 

[GW43125]

1S25 (Down Lowlander) appears to be still sat at Euston an hour after scheduled departure time...

"Currently being delayed by a train fault..." per CS on Twitter.

That could be anything...!

Any word on the traction and whether that could be playing a part?

 

[TimboM]

Any word on the traction and whether that could be playing a part?

"Repairs are on-going" apparently... no idea what to though, or what the booked traction is.

CS normally say it's a fault with the loco if that is the case, although maybe reading too much into their vague wording of "train".

Incidentally, the Lowlander has been in Euston for over an hour too now, so you'd think if it was a loco issue they might've swapped it for the one intended for the Lowlander and send another down from Willesden...?

EDIT: 92010 is reported to be on this tonight.

 

[47271]

1S25 (Down Lowlander) appears to be still sat at Euston an hour after scheduled departure time...

"Currently being delayed by a train fault..." per CS on Twitter.

That could be anything...!

Sorry to be pedantic, but you mean Down Highlander, I had a bit of a double take when I read the post?

I believe that this train's absolutely rammed tonight as well ahead of the Bank Holiday, let's hope the problem is fixable at the platform, or there's going to be an awful lot of disappointed people...

 

[GW43125]

Sorry to be pedantic, but you mean Down Highlander, I had a bit of a double take when I read the post?

I believe that this train's absolutely rammed tonight as well ahead of the Bank Holiday, let's hope the problem is fixable at the platform, or there's going to be an awful lot of disappointed people...

Just left 83L according to RTT

 

[TimboM]

Sorry to be pedantic, but you mean Down Highlander, I had a bit of a double take when I read the post?

I believe that this train's absolutely rammed tonight as well ahead of the Bank Holiday, let's hope the problem is fixable at the platform, or there's going to be an awful lot of disappointed people...

I do, sorry. Corrected it now.

Concentrating too hard on getting my Ups and Downs right. Think I'll just stick to "1S25"...!