Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[CosherB]

The 23.50 ran from Euston - Glasgow I heard the sleeper was replaced by a charter set due to the strike, a set of 8 Mark2 seated coaches was used instead. Anyone able to get some pics of these coaches?

There are online pictures of GBRf 66720 taking a rake of Riviera Mk2 coaches from Burton to London. I haven't seen what took the rake north but I would assume it was a Freighliner 90?

 

[amcluesent]

Fire alarms don't unplug themselves.

The question is are the fitters at Polmadie incompetent or hoping to sabotage the service?

 

[alphamale]

There are online pictures of GBRf 66720 taking a rake of Riviera Mk2 coaches from Burton to London. I haven't seen what took the rake north but I would assume it was a Freighliner 90?

Link?

 

[33056]

There are online pictures of GBRf 66720 taking a rake of Riviera Mk2 coaches from Burton to London. I haven't seen what took the rake north but I would assume it was a Freighliner 90?

No pictures but:

1S26 23:50 EUS GLC 22/12

90042

17105
6158
6051
6067
5964
5921
6042
3390

 

[DarloRich]

We know. They're all cancelled...

Yes however having been at work and on the go for over 18 hours at that point my brain had stopped recalling the dates of local industrial disputes - my apologies

 

[Chrism20]

Fire alarms don't unplug themselves.

The question is are the fitters at Polmadie incompetent or hoping to sabotage the service?

Very doubtful if it was sabotage or even incompetence, if they were to put the set out and the H&S were to check it someone would probably be looking at their P45. There will be minimum standards required for the set to be passed to run and the RMT would have presumably had their Alstom colleagues out by now if they were being asked to compromise safety as if anything happens and it comes back to be the fault of the workshop you are again looking at a P45 situation and possible criminal proceedings for negligence.

Lack of experience with dealing with the sets is possible. Without going over old ground it was a long time between the introduction of the Pendolinos and CS maintenance going to Alstom, some refresher training would be needed for sure if they hadn't been seeing rolling stock like this on a regular basis.

Regarding the fire alarms are we talking the actual alarm bell or the smoke detectors? If it is the detectors there are that many of them if the specific berth where the faulty detector (or lounge car) is locked out of use it may still be permitted to run. The union make it sound like entire sleeping berths systems have been shut off and passengers have been allowed to use those carriages, has this seriously been the case? Serco of course will say nothing other than "The concerns raised by staff are being addressed as part of our maintenance regime" which is pretty much all you would expect anyone in their position to say in this instance.

 

[NamelessPoster]

It is whole coaches that have the fire alarm faults. They beep intermittently for anything up to a second to five seconds and will continue to do so unless the system.is deactivated. Obviously, passengers are wanting as much of an undisturbed sleep as possible and this cannot be achieved with sudden beeping every few seconds.

As I said earlier SERCO stated one of their aims in taking over the franchise was to overhaul maintenance and that says in itself to change maintenance practices that were in place before. This has been done by changing the staff base of engineers that work on them and that is the key here. Crews that used to work on these sets were under the umbrella of First (now Abellio) and prior to that National Express who held the franchise first after privatisation. That is stretching back 20 years that those staff worked on sleeper stock and that is now lost as Alstom staff now carry out maintenance. It is an overhaul but for the worse and the blame must lie on those that made those changes - SERCO.

 

[Chrism20]

Yes, I think we have now got your thoughts on Serco and their maintenance regime, you keep saying the same thing over and over again.

If that is the case with the fire alarms that full carriages are being deactivated and still used a couple of anonymous calls to H&S would have rectified the matter far quicker and more effectively than a strike as all the faults would have viewable by them had they been logged correctly which I am assuming they have been considering industrial action has been called.

 

[NamelessPoster]

You don't understand the working of the system do you? Maintenance send trains into service with these faults but they do not show as faults until the train is in motion and complaints to H and S are therefore of no consequence as it can be claimed the faults weren't there in depot conditions.

I await what you think the problem is?

 

[CosherB]

Link?

I'm afraid you'll have to be a paid up member of a well known site to see them. Also more pics of 90042 leading the consist north ...

 

[NamelessPoster]

And just to add these faults are reported ad infinitum every night and lo and behold the stock returns into service the following night with the same problem.

 

[CosherB]

And just to add these faults are reported ad infinitum every night and lo and behold the stock returns into service the following night with the same problem.

I'm afraid criticism of other members on here does little for your cause or your apparent raison d'etre to relentlessly have a go at Serco. This won't fix the problems with the CS any quicker.

 

[NamelessPoster]

We are going round in circles here. I am not having a go at maintenance as people have been given those jobs. People who are experts on various rolling stock and less so on others (ie sleeper coach stock). I have said what the problem is here and am awaiting others here to give a viable alternative which I am yet to hear.

 

[captainbigun]

You are not going to get an answer here. Any answer will be commercially sensitive, it's not going to appear on a public forum.

I suggest you grab a glass of sherry, sit back, enjoy Christmas and see what the new year brings.

 

[NamelessPoster]

Cheers captain. Merry Xmas to all.

 

[najaB]

If that is the case with the fire alarms that full carriages are being deactivated and still used a couple of anonymous calls to H&S would have rectified the matter far quicker and more effectively than a strike as all the faults would have viewable by them had they been logged correctly which I am assuming they have been considering industrial action has been called.

I've experienced fire-alarm related issues at least twice since Serco took over: the first time was a fire alarm activation shortly after leaving Inverness (it was notable that the staff looked resigned rather than panicked), the second was a coach locked out of use due to the alarm not working (or having been deactivated). The other berth swaps have been explained as due to other faults (e.g. toliet not working, battery fault).

 

[CC 72100]

As with when rail unions call strikes on disciplinary issues rather then going to a tribunal, yet again this is a rail union sidestepping the propoer processes for resolving such issues. If there are safety concerns, complain to the relevant safety regulator.

I was going to say, surely if they feel that they are getting nowhere with management, then they could have gone to CIRAS?

 

[Chrism20]

You don't understand the working of the system do you? Maintenance send trains into service with these faults but they do not show as faults until the train is in motion and complaints to H and S are therefore of no consequence as it can be claimed the faults weren't there in depot conditions.

I await what you think the problem is?

The train has to go in motion to get from Polmadie/Wembley etc to the platform. If it's leaving the depot like that it should be getting sent straight back. I think we all agree with that.

And just to add these faults are reported ad infinitum every night and lo and behold the stock returns into service the following night with the same problem.

If that is the case the H&S really should be getting called.

We are going round in circles here. I am not having a go at maintenance as people have been given those jobs. People who are experts on various rolling stock and less so on others (ie sleeper coach stock). I have said what the problem is here and am awaiting others here to give a viable alternative which I am yet to hear.

We are going round in circles and you keep saying and asking the same thing over and over but no one other than CS management and Alstom can really answer it and there is little chance of that happening on here. Even the CS frontline staff will have been briefed by the union to say and do nothing that would compromise any action - me or you getting on a train and asking a few questions is included in that as we could be anyone - ie a journalist or another employee of Serco so even from them you won't get the full story.

For what it's worth I do agree with you. Moving the maintenance of the existing rolling stock from Inverness was predicted to be a nightmare by most on here. They could have easily contracted SR to continue until the new stock arrived and made it clear that maintenance would then move to Polmadie or Wembley. Also given that CS's main offices are based in Inverness I'd have thought it would have been advantageous for them to keep everything central. But with everything Serco it comes down to cost and in the end they will reap what they sow with that one.

You are not going to get an answer here. Any answer will be commercially sensitive, it's not going to appear on a public forum.

I suggest you grab a glass of sherry, sit back, enjoy Christmas and see what the new year brings.

Pour me one as well please.

Cheers captain. Merry Xmas to all.

Yes, seasons greetings to all! Safe travelling and all the best.

 

[IanXC]

For what it's worth I do agree with you. Moving the maintenance of the existing rolling stock from Inverness was predicted to be a nightmare by most on here. They could have easily contracted SR to continue until the new stock arrived and made it clear that maintenance would then move to Polmadie or Wembley. Also given that CS's main offices are based in Inverness I'd have thought it would have been advantageous for them to keep everything central. But with everything Serco it comes down to cost and in the end they will reap what they sow with that one.

The more I've thought about this over the months the less sense it makes to me. Not only the advantages listed, but I would suspect ScotRail would have offered a good price, give they will not want to loose staff or knowledge on Mark 3 stock before their HSTs arrive - which is scheduled at a suspiciously similar time to the new Sleeper stock...

 

[NamelessPoster]

As I understand it Chris the sets are moved to and from destination stations to the depot with only a driver aboard in the loco

 

[Philip Phlopp]

They could have easily contracted SR to continue until the new stock arrived and made it clear that maintenance would then move to Polmadie or Wembley.

4.1.4.3 of the Caledonian Sleeper ITT is worth a read - the continued use of Inverness TMD for maintenance was considered pretty damn complicated and even Transport Scotland recognised it might not be possible for the Caledonian Sleeper maintenance to continue at Inverness when it put the service out to tender.

The maintenance changes undertaken by Serco were part of the franchise bid and must have been approved by Transport Scotland.

 

[ainsworth74]

The maintenance changes undertaken by Serco were part of the franchise bid and must have been approved by Transport Scotland.

Speaking of which, where is Transport Scotland in all of this? The franchise is, after all, their baby...

 

[Tav77]

Speaking of which, where is Transport Scotland in all of this? The franchise is, after all, their baby...

Probably too busy patting themselves on the back at getting the Forth Road Bridge finished before Christmas to get themselves involved in negative publicity again

 

[captainbigun]

Speaking of which, where is Transport Scotland in all of this? The franchise is, after all, their baby...

Quite happy it would seem....some quotes from Tony Miles over on wnxx.

 

[Chrism20]

4.1.4.3 of the Caledonian Sleeper ITT is worth a read - the continued use of Inverness TMD for maintenance was considered pretty damn complicated and even Transport Scotland recognised it might not be possible for the Caledonian Sleeper maintenance to continue at Inverness when it put the service out to tender.

The maintenance changes undertaken by Serco were part of the franchise bid and must have been approved by Transport Scotland.

Yes it's highly possible that all the bids proposed a move away from Inverness rather than just Serco.

Obviously Serco thought that moving to Alstom was the best option and indeed looking forward towards the new stock it probably is the best option. It's just unfortunate that there appears to have been a catalogue of issues and it seems to be taking an age to get it all sorted.

Even if the maintenance had stayed in Inverness it should be remembered that the ScotRail franchise has changed hands and is with a different operator and CS would have become a customer rather than in-house. Would the same amount of staff and man-hours have been dedicated to the sleeper as there was during the First days when the staff were in anyway and probably cracked on with some of the smaller jobs. It's very possible that Abellio would turn round and say "You pay for X hours of maintenance per week and for X, Y and Z checks to be done at specific times - anything else above this is extra" which means some of the smaller jobs such as hot water etc may well not be tended to as quickly as they had been in the past. It's all to easy to say that the Inverness maintenance crew wouldn't do that but when it's a new operator and its chargeable rather than in-house things are completely different.

Speaking of which, where is Transport Scotland in all of this? The franchise is, after all, their baby...

They are too busy telling Fife Christmas has came early because a wee brig across the forth is now open.

Seriously though I'd imagine that Serco have been asked to respond to the workforces claims and to comment on the strike action. One has to assume TS has been provided with a maintenance action plan to address the issues and hopefully also explain why the situation has arose to start with. I doubt we will get the full story on that one though.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Speaking of which, where is Transport Scotland in all of this? The franchise is, after all, their baby...

Transport Scotland might be rather busy entertaining the directors of Serco, who instead of turning up at Transport Scotland's offices carol singing, have instead asked for Clause 8.3.1.1 of the Franchise Agreement to be implemented, to whit, they want compensated for losses incurred as a result of the industrial action.

 

[robertclark125]

Serco may have moved the maintainence work to Alstom, but I've already said, it depends what Serco are paying that could determine the work getting done. If you pay peanuts for something, then a peanuts service is what you will get.

 

[Eng274]

Irrespective of what you pay for the maintenance, the rule book and Caledonian Sleeper's operating manual [should] dictate what sort of defects can leave the depot. For all operators, the type of defects that can leave the depot, where safety critical systems are concerned, is "diddly squat, it needs to be fully operational". If fire alarm system defects leave the depot then it is of course a grave concern, as it is in breach of the rule book and the operating manual. It unfortunately comes down to whether Alstom/Aberdeen/Inverness depots and Fort William will establish the problem or just stifle the problem until it gets past the depot exit signal. If CS are not aware of it, then Alstom are gambling with CS's safety case big time should something go wrong.

 

[Chrism20]

A 48-hour strike by workers on the Caledonian Sleeper service between Scotland and London has entered its second day.

The Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union said its members are "rock solid in their defence of passenger and staff safety".

They walked out at 6.30pm on Monday, halting services. The dispute is over union claims of defects to trains which it says pose safety threats.

RMT reported it had received a "brilliant response" from the public after mounting picket lines in Inverness, Fort William, Aberdeen, Glasgow Central, Edinburgh Waverley and London Euston.

The sleeper franchise was awarded to Serco by the Scottish Government in March, taking over from First Group.

The union has highlighted the cost of the tendering process for the contract at £5,672,393.

In addition, it says the decision to separate the sleeper service away from the main ScotRail franchise has meant it no longer benefits from being able to draw on shared financial or engineering resources.

It also criticised the decision to outsource the upkeep of the sleeper service.

RMT general secretary Mick Cash said: "RMT salutes our members on the Serco Caledonian Sleeper who are rock solid in this second day of strike action in defence of passenger and staff safety.

"We have had a brilliant response from the public who understand what this dispute is all about and have decided to back their rail workers against Serco - the specialists in failure.

"The news that more than £5m was blown on letting this contract, cash that could have been invested in maintaining the fleet, exposes the total nonsense of privatisation.

"RMT will continue to fight for safe and reliable services on the sleeper, and the union remains available for further meaningful talks."

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/133...vice-workers-enter-day-two-of-48-hour-strike/

Good to see that response at the pickets have been positive.

Is £5.6m the norm for tendering costs? I must admit I've never really paid attention in the past. If that's the cost per franchise bring back good old BR!

 

[amcluesent]

Is £5.6m the norm for tendering costs?

Transport Scotland will likely have hired legal teams specialising in contract law and EU tendering, then there will be management consultants, financial accountants etc. all brought in so the civil servants are 'squeaky' in the event of legal challenges.