Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[berneyarms]

It's a shame that you chose not to disclose that in your content.

A reasonable person would expect domestic business air travellers to make use of the 06:45 service to Gatwick.

For goodness sake this is a thread about the sleeper - I would have thought that given that, that any discussion about flights would be in that context.

Having quoted the times of the BA flight surely should have been a hint, given the thread title, about what I was discussing.

Sleeper passengers are going to be point to point in the main - not going to be taking it to then travel on a long haul flight.

Do we have to spell every point out here in unbelievable detail now?

 

[D1009]

Can anyone explain to me the nature of the business travel we are talking about? Is it typically someone from Edinburgh having to be in London for a 1000 meeting and returning after it? I ask this because as a former Network Rail employee I used an Easyjet flight to get from Bristol to Newcastle for a 3 day conference starting at 1300, and was not best pleased to have missed the opening meeting because the flight was 3 hours late.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Can anyone explain to me the nature of the business travel we are talking about?

God only knows. It seems to be something that suits the departure and arrival times for the Sleeper according to its supporters and something that suits the new and existing flight times from Inverness for its detractors.

It doesn't appear to be something that might vary between travellers and the type of business they're on, which is odd, but it's Inverness we're talking about and everything is odd.

 

[najaB]

Can anyone explain to me the nature of the business travel we are talking about? Is it typically someone from Edinburgh having to be in London for a 1000 meeting and returning after it?

That is the most common business travel pattern, yes. Needing to be in or near London for early morning meetings, training sessions, etc.

 

[route:oxford]

For goodness sake this is a thread about the sleeper - I would have thought that given that, that any discussion about flights would be in that context.

You quite clearly attacked the timing of the flights falsely claiming that they were:-

Definitely not aimed at the business market.

When it's quite obvious from the BA business model that's exactly what they are intended for.

Look at the way Virgin abandoned the "Little Red" Scottish flights earlier this year. To quote Virgin:-

"The Little Red service did not provide enough feeder traffic onto Virgin's transatlantic and other international routes"

Quite simply the airline industry's view of the business market goes beyond your narrow focus.

Having quoted the times of the BA flight surely should have been a hint, given the thread title, about what I was discussing.

Clearly not.

Sleeper passengers are going to be point to point in the main - not going to be taking it to then travel on a long haul flight.

Well, we've already clarified that this would be far too risky with the present irregular operations.

I have used it in the past to connect with Long-haul and Eurostar. You may not know this, but there are quite a few stations on the route between (for example) Inverness and Edinburgh that don't have an airport on their doorstep. It can be a real pest getting to the airport either straight work or first thing in the morning so getting to London by Sleeper for a short hop to Heathrow or Gatwick can be quite convenient.

Hopefully Eurostar will be understanding of late running arrivals!

Do we have to spell every point out here in unbelievable detail now?

"We"? You and Serco?

 

[Chrism20]

Fair enough. Believe me. I live in Inverness and the flight is a big deal. People are talking about it as it gives them access to LHR. They are not talking about the sleeper much other than the unreliability of it.

It's not good news for the sleeper in any way. That's why I say the sleeper has to be at the top of its game, all the time.

I'm not doubting that the flight is a big deal for Inverness, to be honest I was surprised that the Gatwick run went to Flybe when they sold BA Connect. Had it been a mainline service and crewed from Gatwick rather than Inverness Flybe would probably have never have got it.

Yes it will give them access to Heathrow and the plethora of flights that interline with BA although I personally don't think that the sleeper will be the one that is damaged the most by this.

Flybe have many codeshare agreements with carriers at Manchester and Birmingham which I am reliably informed are fairly well used from Inverness for onward travel. There will also be people making their way across the A96 to use KLM and Air France from Aberdeen where the world is only one stop in Paris or Amsterdam away rather than Heathrow and anyone who has transited through Heathrow, CDG or Schipol will tell you that Paris and Amsterdam are much easier.

There will be people using the sleeper to catch flights in London but I really don't think the number will be huge.

BA also have form (And lot of it) for cancelling all domestics at the first sign of problems in London. The reason for this is that domestic passengers can get to their destination by other means - namely the train. There is also the issue of yield with BA. If it doesn't generate enough cash which on a middle of the day domestic run will mainly come from interlining passengers it will be dropped or shipped off to Gatwick where Easyjet will destroy them whereas Serco have to run the sleeper as they are contracted to do. The chances are it will be there long after BAs latest foray into the Highlands.

 

[ainsworth74]

Let me just at this point drop in a gentle reminder about the Forum Rules specifically:

Respectful

• We aim to create a friendly environment for all members, where individuals respect each other. Please ensure your contributions comply with this.

I am just a little bit concerned that we might be losing sight of the above.

Thanks

 

[marks87]

If BA were targeting their Inverness flights at business users staying in London, they'd fly to LCY.

Instead, they're just adding another spoke to their hub.

 

[najaB]

If BA were targeting their Inverness flights at business users staying in London, they'd fly to LCY.

Instead, they're just adding another spoke to their hub.

As I pointed out above it is entirely possible that they have an aircraft that would be sitting idle otherwise and are using it to feed LHR.

 

[cf111]

If BA were targeting their Inverness flights at business users staying in London, they'd fly to LCY.

Instead, they're just adding another spoke to their hub.

Only BA Cityflyer fly into LCY with Embraers and I don't know if they'll have any sitting around. Certainly it's more likely that BA mainline have a spare A319/A320 they could use with one of the newly freed up Little Red slots.

 

[Altnabreac]

Let me just at this point drop in a gentle reminder about the Forum Rules specifically:



I am just a little bit concerned that we might be losing sight of the above.

Thanks

You could also have mentioned the bit in Forum Rules about Relevant...

 

[berneyarms]

You quite clearly attacked the timing of the flights falsely claiming that they were:-



When it's quite obvious from the BA business model that's exactly what they are intended for.

Look at the way Virgin abandoned the "Little Red" Scottish flights earlier this year. To quote Virgin:-



Quite simply the airline industry's view of the business market goes beyond your narrow focus.



Clearly not.



Well, we've already clarified that this would be far too risky with the present irregular operations.

I have used it in the past to connect with Long-haul and Eurostar. You may not know this, but there are quite a few stations on the route between (for example) Inverness and Edinburgh that don't have an airport on their doorstep. It can be a real pest getting to the airport either straight work or first thing in the morning so getting to London by Sleeper for a short hop to Heathrow or Gatwick can be quite convenient.

Hopefully Eurostar will be understanding of late running arrivals!



"We"? You and Serco?

I am going to abide fully by forum rules here, and have no intention of getting into an endless debate. Suffice to say that I think your last line is very unfair. I live in Ireland and as such have no vested interest whatsoever.

Simply put - the new BA flights and the sleeper are aiming at different markets, in my opinion. As such I don't really see them as a threat to that particular service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can anyone explain to me the nature of the business travel we are talking about?

Sure - any business travel involving all day workshops and such where there is a desire to minimise lost time (be that working or family time). There is also a significant amount of weekly commuting, for which a Sleeper on Sunday night and Thursday/Friday night works well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is the most common business travel pattern, yes. Needing to be in or near London for early morning meetings, training sessions, etc.

Indeed, or Edinburgh!

This usually isn't because businesses are being awkward, it is because of a desire to avoid too many overnights (both from a cost and a family time perspective) by using the full day.

 

[leightonbd]

Looks like the Edinburgh portion was cancelled yet again this morning.

When this happens - does it mean the sleeper also cannot start from Ed that evening? Are people being transferred to Carstairs/ Glasgow from Waverley?

 

[najaB]

When this happens - does it mean the sleeper also cannot start from Ed that evening? Are people being transferred to Carstairs/ Glasgow from Waverley?

I don't see why it necessarily would - the stock still makes it up to Scotland. If they can make and mend whatever is wrong at Polmadie then they would be able to run from Edinburgh the following evening.

 

[Chrism20]

When this happens - does it mean the sleeper also cannot start from Ed that evening? Are people being transferred to Carstairs/ Glasgow from Waverley?

Looking at RTT from Thursday night when it was cancelled the Glasgow service left Central slightly late but was 22L leaving Carstairs (0102) so I am guessing they are being bussed. It would take about an hour to get to Carstairs from Waverley at that time of day I would imagine.

Looking at RTT it must have been moving at some rate for almost the entire journey as it was 22L at Carstairs and arrived in Euston 37E.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G86171/2015/11/05/advanced

 

[marks87]

Instead of using buses, couldn't they hire a loco-hauled set and use the normal sleeper path? Especially if this is a long-term problem.

 

[Chrism20]

Instead of using buses, couldn't they hire a loco-hauled set and use the normal sleeper path? Especially if this is a long-term problem.

Even paying for an EMU from ScotRail to get them through to Carstairs would do it. I'm guessing the crew book on at Edinburgh rather than Polmadie so they also have to get to Carstairs.

It looks like last nights Edinburgh portion was cancelled again although looking at RTT the ECS move got as far as Wishaw and then there was no report from there and Edinburgh changed to cancelled. The Glasgow service was well late leaving Carstairs, presumably waiting on passengers and crew from Edinburgh.

This is the reason why I personally would have preferred for the franchise to remain as one rather than being split as there was always a concerted effort put in to sorting the problem should one arise. Anyone remember the the 156 from Fort William to Edinburgh when there were problems? Nothing like that would happen now.

 

[marks87]

Even paying for an EMU from ScotRail to get them through to Carstairs would do it.

My thinking was that the traction is already there and doing nothing, so hiring just the coaches could be the most economical solution.

 

[Chrism20]

My thinking was that the traction is already there and doing nothing, so hiring just the coaches could be the most economical solution.

True, anything has to be better than the current set up though.

 

[kevin5025]

Even paying for an EMU from ScotRail to get them through to Carstairs would do it. I'm guessing the crew book on at Edinburgh rather than Polmadie so they also have to get to Carstairs.

It looks like last nights Edinburgh portion was cancelled again although looking at RTT the ECS move got as far as Wishaw and then there was no report from there and Edinburgh changed to cancelled. The Glasgow service was well late leaving Carstairs, presumably waiting on passengers and crew from Edinburgh.

This is the reason why I personally would have preferred for the franchise to remain as one rather than being split as there was always a concerted effort put in to sorting the problem should one arise. Anyone remember the the 156 from Fort William to Edinburgh when there were problems? Nothing like that would happen now.

Yes, while the franchise split should result in greater effort being put into the sleeper, there are equally fewer resources. And they don't want to pay to use the Inverness depot any more.
I was in Dingwall station this morning and there is no longer any reference to the sleeper, or timetables / information available. It is a shame that the sleeper is missing out on advertising at non sleeper Scotrail stations now.

 

[TonyTaysider]

I was due to travel on the First Class sleeper with my teenage children from Euston to Edinburgh on 23/10 and from Edinburgh to Euston on 1/11. Both services were cancelled with bus replacements provided.
On the first journey, my request for a hotel room in London was initially refused. However, we were taken aside at the last minute - once everyone else had boarded the buses - and accommodated in a hotel near Euston. We travelled to Edinburgh on the East Coast line early the following morning.
The second time, Caledonian Sleepers e-mailed me the day before to say they were having technical problems. I was asked to choose between joining our berths in Glasgow or being bussed from Edinburgh to Carstairs (I chose the former). On the day itself, they sent a message at 12.00 to say the service was running. Then at 16.24 they informed me the train was cancelled and that there would be a replacement bus. We had no option but to take this bus because we had a Eurostar to catch the following morning.
It was a grim experience. There was just one driver, the vehicle was badly heated and the journey took almost ten hours. No refreshments or blankets were provided and we arrived at Euston chilled and exhausted.
It appears from the complaints posted on the company's (mobile) Twitter feed that the Caledonian Sleepers have been disrupted regularly over the last three weeks, up to and including last night's cancellation. The problem is clearly chronic but the contingency management (if you can call it that) seems to be "take every day as it comes"! Information that would allow us to make alternative arrangements is not provided in time. I feel particularly sorry for the frontline staff who have to deal with undertandably upset passengers, and make excuses for the failings of their management.
For some reason, the Scottish media have shown no interest.
I think, in retrospect, that the decision to tender separately for the Scottish sleeper services was a mistake. The franchise should have been linked to a larger one where the operator could fall back on a much larger resource-base. Above all, it could provide provide proper rail substitutions, albeit sitting up, on the frequent occasions when the ancient rolling stock breaks down (pending the introduction of the new trains in 2018). I would favour putting the sleepers in with the West Coast franchise that already serves the main section of the route. I recognise there also are other good arguments for re-integrating them into the Scotrail franchise.
I have been a regular sleeper user but have now cancelled my next planned journey in December. I have chosen the safer option of a hotel in London and a day train.
I will not be making any new bookings on the Caledonian Sleepers.
I am sad about this, because at its best, I think the sleeper beats any other way of travelling between London and Scotland.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be very interesting to see what the Sleepers would be like operated by VWC - would they perhaps look to get them a bit more like their airline?

The above, FWIW, is a complete outrage. They must be heading towards a breach of their franchise agreement by now.

 

[embers25]

I was due to travel on the First Class sleeper with my teenage children from Euston to Edinburgh on 23/10 and from Edinburgh to Euston on 1/11. Both services were cancelled with bus replacements provided.
On the first journey, my request for a hotel room in London was initially refused. However, we were taken aside at the last minute - once everyone else had boarded the buses - and accommodated in a hotel near Euston. We travelled to Edinburgh on the East Coast line early the following morning.
The second time, Caledonian Sleepers e-mailed me the day before to say they were having technical problems. I was asked to choose between joining our berths in Glasgow or being bussed from Edinburgh to Carstairs (I chose the former). On the day itself, they sent a message at 12.00 to say the service was running. Then at 16.24 they informed me the train was cancelled and that there would be a replacement bus. We had no option but to take this bus because we had a Eurostar to catch the following morning.
It was a grim experience. There was just one driver, the vehicle was badly heated and the journey took almost ten hours. No refreshments or blankets were provided and we arrived at Euston chilled and exhausted.
It appears from the complaints posted on the company's (mobile) Twitter feed that the Caledonian Sleepers have been disrupted regularly over the last three weeks, up to and including last night's cancellation. The problem is clearly chronic but the contingency management (if you can call it that) seems to be "take every day as it comes"! Information that would allow us to make alternative arrangements is not provided in time. I feel particularly sorry for the frontline staff who have to deal with undertandably upset passengers, and make excuses for the failings of their management.
For some reason, the Scottish media have shown no interest.
I think, in retrospect, that the decision to tender separately for the Scottish sleeper services was a mistake. The franchise should have been linked to a larger one where the operator could fall back on a much larger resource-base. Above all, it could provide provide proper rail substitutions, albeit sitting up, on the frequent occasions when the ancient rolling stock breaks down (pending the introduction of the new trains in 2018). I would favour putting the sleepers in with the West Coast franchise that already serves the main section of the route. I recognise there also are other good arguments for re-integrating them into the Scotrail franchise.
I have been a regular sleeper user but have now cancelled my next planned journey in December. I have chosen the safer option of a hotel in London and a day train.
I will not be making any new bookings on the Caledonian Sleepers.
I am sad about this, because at its best, I think the sleeper beats any other way of travelling between London and Scotland.

Maybe the reason the SNP don't seem to care is that the sleeper is such a drain on scarce resources and maybe they'd rather use the money elsewhere. Lets face it, it may as well be permanently cancelled right now as it hardly ever runs a full nights service any more.

 

[najaB]

I think, in retrospect, that the decision to tender separately for the Scottish sleeper services was a mistake.

I think the main problem was they chose the wrong 'winner'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the main problem was they chose the wrong 'winner'.

What were the original bids?

Edit: Googled it. Arriva, First and Serco. Now that's a Hobson's choice if I ever saw one; none of those strike me as a good option.

 

[cf111]

I was due to travel on the First Class sleeper with my teenage children from Euston to Edinburgh on 23/10 and from Edinburgh to Euston on 1/11. Both services were cancelled with bus replacements provided.
On the first journey, my request for a hotel room in London was initially refused. However, we were taken aside at the last minute - once everyone else had boarded the buses - and accommodated in a hotel near Euston. We travelled to Edinburgh on the East Coast line early the following morning.
The second time, Caledonian Sleepers e-mailed me the day before to say they were having technical problems. I was asked to choose between joining our berths in Glasgow or being bussed from Edinburgh to Carstairs (I chose the former). On the day itself, they sent a message at 12.00 to say the service was running. Then at 16.24 they informed me the train was cancelled and that there would be a replacement bus. We had no option but to take this bus because we had a Eurostar to catch the following morning.
It was a grim experience. There was just one driver, the vehicle was badly heated and the journey took almost ten hours. No refreshments or blankets were provided and we arrived at Euston chilled and exhausted.
It appears from the complaints posted on the company's (mobile) Twitter feed that the Caledonian Sleepers have been disrupted regularly over the last three weeks, up to and including last night's cancellation. The problem is clearly chronic but the contingency management (if you can call it that) seems to be "take every day as it comes"! Information that would allow us to make alternative arrangements is not provided in time. I feel particularly sorry for the frontline staff who have to deal with undertandably upset passengers, and make excuses for the failings of their management.
For some reason, the Scottish media have shown no interest.
I think, in retrospect, that the decision to tender separately for the Scottish sleeper services was a mistake. The franchise should have been linked to a larger one where the operator could fall back on a much larger resource-base. Above all, it could provide provide proper rail substitutions, albeit sitting up, on the frequent occasions when the ancient rolling stock breaks down (pending the introduction of the new trains in 2018). I would favour putting the sleepers in with the West Coast franchise that already serves the main section of the route. I recognise there also are other good arguments for re-integrating them into the Scotrail franchise.
I have been a regular sleeper user but have now cancelled my next planned journey in December. I have chosen the safer option of a hotel in London and a day train.
I will not be making any new bookings on the Caledonian Sleepers.
I am sad about this, because at its best, I think the sleeper beats any other way of travelling between London and Scotland.

This sounds a complete farce and is very saddening. I've been on the sleepers when things have gone wrong but I've always had the impression that the excellent front line staff have had the backing from management to resolve the situation to the best of their ability at the time.

I am southbound from Inverness tomorrow night and have all my fingers crossed that I wake up near London rather than looking forward to what is normally an excellent journey.

 

[Chrism20]

Maybe the reason the SNP don't seem to care is that the sleeper is such a drain on scarce resources and maybe they'd rather use the money elsewhere. Lets face it, it may as well be permanently cancelled right now as it hardly ever runs a full nights service any more.

If if it were the case that they didn't care the ordering of new rolling stock would never have been sanctioned. If the contracts have been signed for that it will have to be paid for even if (in the unlikely event) serco get their marching orders.

Surely someone at Holyrood must be looking closely at what is going on here. The government and ScotRail have regular meetings surely it must be the same with Serco.

 

[Agent_c]

If if it were the case that they didn't care the ordering of new rolling stock would never have been sanctioned. If the contracts have been signed for that it will have to be paid for even if (in the unlikely event) serco get their marching orders.

Surely someone at Holyrood must be looking closely at what is going on here. The government and ScotRail have regular meetings surely it must be the same with Serco.

The meetings are probably cancelled or delayed due to technical difficulties...

 

[najaB]

What were the original bids?

Edit: Googled it. Arriva, First and Serco. Now that's a Hobson's choice if I ever saw one; none of those strike me as a good option.

No, but at least First had a semi-decent reputation for running Scotrail, knew the foibles of the rolling stock and had contracts in place for reliable traction.