Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[najaB]

I'd like to win the lottery every week. As we all know it doesn't work like that. Equally the commercials for the sleeper didn't work with Inverness as Alstom were the chosen partner.

I think the question being raised is - in hindsight - was moving the maintenance to Alstom some two years before the new stock is available a smart move?

 

[captainbigun]

I think the question being raised is - in hindsight - was moving the maintenance to Alstom some two years before the new stock is available a smart move?

We'll never know, it's a pointless debate. Getting flats happens whoever is maintaining the stock, for example.

The new stock won't all tip up at once allowing a Big Bang migration. Managing two suppliers for two different sets of stock would be horrendous.

 

[dcd]

Problems again on lowland by the looks of it. Carstairs to Edinburgh cancelled due to "This service was cancelled throughout due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS)." whatever that means. The Glasgow portion ran ok

 

[Bletchleyite]

Problems again on lowland by the looks of it. Carstairs to Edinburgh cancelled due to "This service was cancelled throughout due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS)." whatever that means. The Glasgow portion ran ok

So it seems.

Time for action on breach of franchise agreement? If they're just short of Mk2 BSOs the charter operators have a truckload of them. Just hire one in and use it on the Fort Bill; I doubt many would moan about the use of 2+2 table seating on the generally quiet Fort Bill seating coach, indeed people might appreciate being able to put their (unshod) feet up a bit for a kip.

Edit: Reads like they are running the whole thing (minus the dodgy BSO presumably) to Glasgow with passengers onwards by ScotRail to Edinburgh:
https://twitter.com/CalSleeper

 

[Highland37]

So it seems.

Time for action on breach of franchise agreement? If they're just short of Mk2 BSOs the charter operators have a truckload of them. Just hire one in and use it on the Fort Bill; I doubt many would moan about the use of 2+2 table seating on the generally quiet Fort Bill seating coach, indeed people might appreciate being able to put their (unshod) feet up a bit for a kip.

Edit: Reads like they are running the whole thing (minus the dodgy BSO presumably) to Glasgow with passengers onwards by ScotRail to Edinburgh:
https://twitter.com/CalSleeper

I think people would be unhappy with the 2+2 seating.

"Fort Bill" just jags in my throat!

 

[47271]

I think people would be unhappy with the 2+2 seating.

"Fort Bill" just jags in my throat!

An Gearasdan it is from now on

 

[Highland37]

An Gearasdan it is from now on

Indeed!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think people would be unhappy with the 2+2 seating.

But surely better that a few people put up with 2+2 seating for 5 hours (particularly given that typical winter loadings mean each passenger would get a bay of 4 to themselves) than that a load of time-conscious businesspeople don't get to Edinburgh at all or get there very late. People who book a 12 hour overnight journey with a 4am change of coach in the seats expect a bit of discomfort and will put up with it. People who book a first-class compartment for a business trip don't expect the service to fail them, and those high value customers are the ones CS can't afford to lose. Not, of course, that those who have flown have had an easy time of it this week!

"Fort Bill" just jags in my throat!

Sorry

 

[Observer]

Would there be a serious problem to hire in a FO (for the passengers) as well as a BSO (for the guard and luggage)? I fail to see that the likes of Riveria couldn't help with supplying them those carriages for the Fort William segment just to keep things going.

Makes me wonder why all this gets swept under the rug. It's changed from locos being unreliable to the stock now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would there be a serious problem to hire in a FO (for the passengers) as well as a BSO (for the guard and luggage)? I fail to see that the likes of Riveria couldn't help with supplying them those carriages for the Fort William segment just to keep things going.

Is there a possible platform length issue there? But yes that would also be an option that would keep everyone happy.

But cancelling the Edinburgh portion (with its time sensitive business passengers) just seems totally nuts.

 

[kevin5025]

Is there a possible platform length issue there? But yes that would also be an option that would keep everyone happy.

But cancelling the Edinburgh portion (with its time sensitive business passengers) just seems totally nuts.

I agree. Southbound Inverness sleeper was missing a first class coach last night so some passengers had their accomodation downgraded. I checked the CS guest charter and they apparently get a refund of the difference between first and standard, but still I wonder if it would put some people off making another trip.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. Southbound Inverness sleeper was missing a first class coach last night so some passengers had their accomodation downgraded. I checked the CS guest charter and they apparently get a refund of the difference between first and standard, but still I wonder if it would put some people off making another trip.

I am certainly not considering it for business purposes at present, which means a loss of 150 quid a week from ScotRail to easyJet and a hotel. If I need to work on arrival, I want a compartment to myself (and if I didn't get that, FWIW, I'd rather be downgraded to a seat than a share - in such a tiny compartment it is just too awkward-feeling for me so I doubt I would get any sleep).

FWIW I don't get why they have "first class coaches", "solo compartments" and "Standard coaches" - they are the same, the only difference is whether a bunk has been folded up or not. They should be more flexible with the booking system, allowing either to be booked until the train is full. I'm convinced they threw away the chance of £200 off me for First Class last Thursday - it was booked up so I chose a seat for £55 instead - but when I got off at Fort William the sleeper coaches appeared nowhere near full.

 

[najaB]

I'm convinced they threw away the chance of £200 off me for First Class last Thursday - it was booked up so I chose a seat for £55 instead - but when I got off at Fort William the sleeper coaches appeared nowhere near full.

It is always possible that the occupants had alighted at earlier stops.

 

[fgwrich]

From my experience, the issues with the stock seem to have started in the summer around the time when I last used it. Going up there wasn't much of an issue, although the brakes were sounding a little worn and coach feeling rather tired. Coming back however, the Glasgow Portion had both the BSO with it's lights out and the Lounge Car was apparently out of use. My Mk2 BSO on the Edinburgh portion felt like a spare coach, with a rather tired interior, few curtains missing, dirty / replaced panel - a sort of coach that actually made a Riviera one slightly more presentable. Perhaps it could be worth Serco hiring in a Riviera Mk2 BSO & RMB - They've got a handful of them! But better still, transferring the maintenance back to Inverness and Wembley would be better!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is always possible that the occupants had alighted at earlier stops.

Yes, fair point, they may well have done. Though the platforms at intermediate stops I saw (I was awake from sunrise-ish) were not busy, and if it's anything to go by all seated coach occupants I think did the full journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Coming back however, the Glasgow Portion had both the BSO with it's lights out

I'd pay extra for that, personally, though I imagine it meant it could not be used due to modern H&S. I do hope the new seated coaches have more subdued LED lighting in the manner of a long-haul airliner; even with the lights on half and the filthy diffusers giving a very yellow light the lights are a bit too bright.

Could be worse, of course, could be fGW Mk3 lighting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Going off on a tangent on the subject of the BSOs, I note they have a rather curious heating system in which the fans seem to audibly alternate between blowing air-conditioned air from the top and blowing heated air from the bottom rather than the more conventional continuous roof-level aircon with radiators at foot level. Does anyone know why these coaches are so fitted when others aren't?

 

[Mag_seven]

Whole portions of trains not running, short formed sets, coaches locked out of use - could Transport Scotland start considering contract termination?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Id love to know the anser to the BSOs heating and aircon thing too!

 

[cf111]

Whole portions of trains not running, short formed sets, coaches locked out of use - could Transport Scotland start considering contract termination?

I think we're a very long way from that being an option, but out of curiosity what would the practicalities be? Directly Operated Railways (or a new Transport Scotland equivalent)?

I didn't particularly agree with the decision to split the franchise away from ScotRail - I understand the idea that as a standalone it should get more attention and arguably investment, but it runs the serious risk of not being viable on its own. As part of a larger franchise it would have been possible to "subsidise" it as long as it wasn't haemorrhaging money and the rest of the franchise was making money - on its own it's more exposed.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Transfer it back to Scotrail if Abellio wil take it?

 

[Hadders]

Appalling reliability
Massive increase in berth fees
No standard solo berth supplements for flexible ticket holders
Refusal to recognise Local Scottish Routeing Guide Easements
ALRs not accepted on their final day

The list of woe goes on.

 

[Chrism20]

Apologies if this has been asked already but how is the reliability calculated for the CS?

Is it based on two services each way (Highland and Lowland) or is it based on five services each way?

The five each way being:-

Glasgow to Euston (1M11) and return (1S26)
Edinburgh to Carstairs (1C11) and return (1B26)
Inverness to Euston (1M16) and return (1S25)
Fort William to Edinburgh (1B01) and return (1Y11)
Aberdeen to Edinburgh (1B16) and return (1A25)

If it is counted as Highland and Lowland and the Edinburgh portion is simply sent to Glasgow instead this could be counted as it has ran, however if it is counted on the headcode services the reliability figures will not make for good reading when they are next released.

 

[Bald Rick]

Apologies if this has been asked already but how is the reliability calculated for the CS?

Is it based on two services each way (Highland and Lowland) or is it based on five services each way?

The five each way being:-

Glasgow to Euston (1M11) and return (1S26)
Edinburgh to Carstairs (1C11) and return (1B26)
Inverness to Euston (1M16) and return (1S25)
Fort William to Edinburgh (1B01) and return (1Y11)
Aberdeen to Edinburgh (1B16) and return (1A25)

If it is counted as Highland and Lowland and the Edinburgh portion is simply sent to Glasgow instead this could be counted as it has ran, however if it is counted on the headcode services the reliability figures will not make for good reading when they are next released.

5 each way.

 

[Chrism20]

5 each way.

Thanks, I thought it would be done that way.

 

[fgwrich]

I'd pay extra for that, personally, though I imagine it meant it could not be used due to modern H&S. I do hope the new seated coaches have more subdued LED lighting in the manner of a long-haul airliner; even with the lights on half and the filthy diffusers giving a very yellow light the lights are a bit too bright.

I rather wanted to move to that coach as well as my Edinburgh Portion was completely full but alas the guard said no - unfortunately due to H&S grounds. An empty coach with no lighting on a sleeper service - Perfect. Shame!

 

[theironroad]

I am certainly not considering it for business purposes at present, which means a loss of 150 quid a week from ScotRail to easyJet and a hotel. If I need to work on arrival, I want a compartment to myself (and if I didn't get that, FWIW, I'd rather be downgraded to a seat than a share - in such a tiny compartment it is just too awkward-feeling for me so I doubt I would get any sleep).

FWIW I don't get why they have "first class coaches", "solo compartments" and "Standard coaches" - they are the same, the only difference is whether a bunk has been folded up or not. They should be more flexible with the booking system, allowing either to be booked until the train is full. I'm convinced they threw away the chance of £200 off me for First Class last Thursday - it was booked up so I chose a seat for £55 instead - but when I got off at Fort William the sleeper coaches appeared nowhere near full.

Sharing really isn't awkward. I'd rather have sole occupancy but I've shared many times and its been fine, as long as it is not a loud snorer..... I always use ear plugs anyway and a horizontal bed is going to be better than a seat anytime IMO. However, i dont travel for business and even wit the bed I struggle to get really good sleep, thoiuhgh enough to manage next day....

 

[Starmill]

I don't understand why it was disrespectful towards Bodiddly. There's a clear importance to being sensitive and kind towards someone whose job is at risk or being 'managed out' - but that doesn't chabge the overall view of the service needing to be taken. I'm not at all qualified to comment on what is best here, but what should be established is what the requirements of the profitable and sustainable service are and maintenance must fill that gap. Not the other way around.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sharing really isn't awkward.

I fear that is a matter of opinion. I have shared a ferry cabin with a stranger once (it was the only option because it was booked very late, and it was one where a cabin was compulsory) and I really did not enjoy it. The smaller Sleeper cabin would be even more "close", and I am really not up for that at all.

I'd rather have sole occupancy but I've shared many times and its been fine, as long as it is not a loud snorer

It also doesn't help that I do snore if I end up on my back - part of the awkwardness is the feeling of keeping someone else awake at close quarters.

However, i dont travel for business and even wit the bed I struggle to get really good sleep, thoiuhgh enough to manage next day....

2-3 hours of broken sleep in the seats sufficed for walking up a mountain, but is nowhere near enough for sitting at a desk trying to think straight.

 

[onlinespotting]

I am certainly not considering it for business purposes at present, which means a loss of 150 quid a week from ScotRail to easyJet and a hotel.

A pedantic correction but the loss will be to Calefonian Sleeper not Scotrail.


Also people keep saying return it to Scotrail if they'll take it - You're assuming that Abellio would run it the same as First; the fact is Abellio have never had it and may not do any better.

 

[Altnabreac]

Whole portions of trains not running, short formed sets, coaches locked out of use - could Transport Scotland start considering contract termination?

There is no chance of contract termination being pursued unless things get much worse.

Until the new stock arrives I suspect Transport Scotland will be fairly patient.

As a reminder I posted the audited PPM here last week and it shows only a marginal deterioration under Serco so that isn't going to ringing Franchise cancelling alarm bells.

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/html/print/89ea5935-2a30-408b-a41c-7610116649f2

Shows that at end of 2014/15 (under First) performance MAA (moving annual averages) were:
PPM 92.3%
CASL 5.2%
Right Time 76.5%

Compare to this:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/about/performance/

Under Serco the current MAA is:
PPM 90.9%
CASL 3.3%
Right Time 75.6%

And the Period 7 (July) figures are:
PPM 93.4%
CASL 3.0%
Right Time 72.9%

So the picture is mixed. If anything cancellations and severe delays seem down, PPM and Right Time arrivals seem slightly worse but not hugely different to last year.

 

[berneyarms]

Sharing really isn't awkward. I'd rather have sole occupancy but I've shared many times and its been fine, as long as it is not a loud snorer..... I always use ear plugs anyway and a horizontal bed is going to be better than a seat anytime IMO. However, i dont travel for business and even wit the bed I struggle to get really good sleep, thoiuhgh enough to manage next day....

That's very much a personal preference.

I certainly would not want to share a berth with someone I didn't know, and I'd have to admit would find sharing a space that small with someone I knew well rather difficult.