Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[Philip Phlopp]

I too, am very concerned about how this vital service is being run into the ground by an outsourcing company that has no apparent clue how the logistics work to run such a complicated service.

Serco know exactly what they're doing - they've got some experienced and well regarded senior staff, but the franchise is so ridiculous even their many and varied talents can't quite extricate it from the mess it's in.

Steve Butcher is running the Serco Rail operation - he's ex National Express Rail and Serco/Abellio, coming through Midland Mainline and Northern, his team includes Graham Bunker, ex Virgin and Arriva Trains Wales and Peter Strachan, Graham's boss at Arriva Trains Wales and former LNWR route director for Network Rail.

 

[Bodiddly]

Serco know exactly what they're doing - they've got some experienced and well regarded senior staff, but the franchise is so ridiculous even their many and varied talents can't quite extricate it from the mess it's in.

Steve Butcher is running the Serco Rail operation - he's ex National Express Rail and Serco/Abellio, coming through Midland Mainline and Northern, his team includes Graham Bunker, ex Virgin and Arriva Trains Wales and Peter Strachan, Graham's boss at Arriva Trains Wales and former LNWR route director for Network Rail.

I agree with what you say about the pedigree of the management team at Caledonian Sleeper, it's on paper and can't be argued with. What can be said though is this management team have got things spectacularly wrong in some of the decisions that have been made regarding the provision of the service. To bring Alstom in as a maintenance partner was 3 years (or whenever the new stock arrives) too early. Inverness staff had a very good record of keeping these old and dated carriages working. We had the facilities to fix major problems such as MA faults and air con faults and had the facility to turn coaches to keep the formations in the correct sequence. We have sets arriving at Inverness completely out of sinc. We used to have tech riders who would be on board to fix any minor maintenance issues that would arise en-route.
I think another major flawed decision was to use rushed in motive power in the guise of the 92's. Again, this is an outsourcing problem of using a traction provider very much green to running passenger trains. GBRf are a freight operator and as such, their drivers lack the experience of driving class 1 trains. Ask any driver and they will tell you the difference between driving a 900 tonne passenger train at 80mph and a 2000 tonne coal train at 50mph. We can only hold our breath as to the performance of the 'new' class 73 destined for the wilds of Scotland in winter.
Are these just teething troubles or does it go further than that? Has Serco's business model of outsourcing as cheap as possible shown it's weakness for such a complicated service? One thing I do know is that the on board staff are livid they are being left to deal with the problems that occur on a nightly basis.

 

[captainbigun]

How did you reach the conclusion that the Gb crews don't have class one experience? I have met a number of the crews and seen their work first hand. Many of them have decades experience on class one, loco hauled, HST and Pendo/Votager. There's also many ex-DB guys, the same folk who were driving the sleepers before.

I'm sorry you spout some utter rubbish and this is a good example. I gather you are based at IS so directly impacted by some of the changes introduced with the new franchise. This is clouding your judgement.

 

[alex17595]

Oh, no doubt that was the case as the stock is 30+ years old. I once got upgraded from seated coach to berth because the heating failed on cold March night. But I don't remember as many cancellations, instances of late running and short-formed running a year ago as there is now.

When I went on the sleeper in September the seated section on the Fort William portion had no power at all so it was dark, no heating and worse of all no flushing toilets or lights in them! We did get given the option to go into the lounge car but everyone seemed to be happy where they were.

It was nice being dark as I was struggling to sleep on the way up from Crewe. It meant I could see out the window as well.

 

[Bodiddly]

How did you reach the conclusion that the Gb crews don't have class one experience? I have met a number of the crews and seen their work first hand. Many of them have decades experience on class one, loco hauled, HST and Pendo/Votager. There's also many ex-DB guys, the same folk who were driving the sleepers before.

I'm sorry you spout some utter rubbish and this is a good example. I gather you are based at IS so directly impacted by some of the changes introduced with the new franchise. This is clouding your judgement.

I'm actually quoting from a driver himself. He also told me that the drivers have been told that they have to travel on the service to experience things for themselves. He did also say that a lot of the rough driving was on the Southern parts of the network where you were more likely to have freight experienced drivers. To be fair it does not in any way imply that all drivers are the same
I don't spout rubbish for the sake of it and it really boils my blood to see a comment like yours. I work with this train every day I'm at work and my colleagues and I have seen a service that was reasonably run to the shambles it is today. If you have a decent argument state your case and don't just say people are jealous and spouting rubbish. Where's your information coming from?

 

[D1009]

I'm actually quoting from a driver himself. He also told me that the drivers have been told that they have to travel on the service to experience things for themselves. He did also say that a lot of the rough driving was on the Southern parts of the network where you were more likely to have freight experienced drivers.

I think I've read most of this thread, which has included many contributions from passengers who have used the service. I don't recall any of them criticising the way the trains are being driven.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I've read most of this thread, which has included many contributions from passengers who have used the service. I don't recall any of them criticising the way the trains are being driven.

Given how hard and roughly DB seem to drive theirs, they'd have to do something seriously wrong to make them worse

 

[najaB]

I think I've read most of this thread, which has included many contributions from passengers who have used the service. I don't recall any of them criticising the way the trains are being driven.

However I believe there were complaints made as the drivers were told to travel as passengers so that they got to experience the passenger environment. The reason given by Serco management was so that they would drive more smoothly. Can't find a link just now though.

 

[Highland37]

You just have to read this whole thread to see how bad things are.

Yes I realise that but I haven't seen any stats. Further up this thread I asked for them and people make reference to them but it seems more in a generic sense rather than quoting any source.

So, does anyone have stats which can be used to compare First and Serco's running of the service?

For clarity, I means statistics, not general observations.

 

[Altnabreac]

Yes I realise that but I haven't seen any stats. Further up this thread I asked for them and people make reference to them but it seems more in a generic sense rather than quoting any source.

So, does anyone have stats which can be used to compare First and Serco's running of the service?

For clarity, I means statistics, not general observations.

Try this: https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/html/print/89ea5935-2a30-408b-a41c-7610116649f2

Shows that at end of 2014/15 (under First) performance MAA (moving annual averages) were:
PPM 92.3%
CASL 5.2%
Right Time 76.5%

Compare to this:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/about/performance/

Under Serco the current MAA is:
PPM 90.9%
CASL 3.3%
Right Time 75.6%

And the Period 7 (July) figures are:
PPM 93.4%
CASL 3.0%
Right Time 72.9%

So the picture is mixed. If anything cancellations and severe delays seem down, PPM and Right Time arrivals seem slightly worse but not hugely different to last year.

All seems to fit with struggling slightly with traction problems but doesn't exactly look like quite the crisis this thread is making it out to be.

Will keep an eye on franchise PPM and post it here occasionally.

 

[Highland37]

Thanks for that. Very informative.

Yes I agree with your summary. Such is the way of life though. It's interesting to note how people react to the slightest indication of a problem.

The MV Loch Seaforth is going for her first annual dry dock survey and a Northlink freight boat has been chartered to cover the freight run. According to some internet warriors, this means Calmac has been privitised. Em, no.

 

[D1009]

However I believe there were complaints made as the drivers were told to travel as passengers so that they got to experience the passenger environment. The reason given by Serco management was so that they would drive more smoothly. Can't find a link just now though.

Are you sure the complaints were not about the way the DB drivers drove them? If the drivers were new to driving passenger trains, to me it would be a very good idea for them to travel as passengers, particularly southbound in the cabins next to where the attachment takes place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To clarify, I referred to DB night trains in Germany.

 

[Essexman]

As a passenger who uses the sleeper for about ten journeys a year I haven't noticed much in the way of significant differences from under First.

New uniforms - irrelevant to me
New lounge car menu - probably overall improvement
Changed bedding - definitely better
New website - better other than for service updates, where these it is now worse

I hadn't thought about the ride, but I do recall some very rough shunting at Edinburgh coming southbound from Inverness last time.

As a mere passenger and not from the industry, can anyone tell me why Serco decided to change the locomotives, as the ones First used (electric & diesel) seemed fine to me?

 

[Bungle965]

As a passenger who uses the sleeper for about ten journeys a year I haven't noticed much in the way of significant differences from under First.

New uniforms - irrelevant to me
New lounge car menu - probably overall improvement
Changed bedding - definitely better
New website - better other than for service updates, where these it is now worse

I hadn't thought about the ride, but I do recall some very rough shunting at Edinburgh coming southbound from Inverness last time.

As a mere passenger and not from the industry, can anyone tell me why Serco decided to change the locomotives, as the ones First used (electric & diesel) seemed fine to me?

They changed the electric ones in preparation for the new stock because the class 90s did not have a high enough ETH rating so replaced them with class 92.Im not sure about why they replaced the class 67s unfortunately I'm sure somebody will though.
Sam

 

[marks87]

They changed the electric ones in preparation for the new stock because the class 90s did not have a high enough ETH rating so replaced them with class 92.Im not sure about why they replaced the class 67s unfortunately I'm sure somebody will though.
Sam

I think the short answer is that they gave the traction contract to GBRf who don't have any class 67s.

Although, 67s are still being used until the 73/9s are ready.

 

[Fishplate84]

It worries me when a franchise changes hands and performance dips. Especially when its gone from a relatively unloved (from a corporate perspective) idiosyncratic service using odd and ancient stock to one where its the whole focus of the contract and is probably getting the full management attention it deserves now.
There's a very good chance that years of cut price but necessary bodges are starting to be uncovered as First 'patched and mended' the stock to keep it running at lowest possible cost. How many quick work arounds and potentially undocumented safety related system shortcuts have they found and are now trying to fix properly?
It's not necessarily all a case of poor management, but a new focus thats uncovering this. It's certainly the case for the main ScotRail franchise. All the skeletons are falling out of the cupboard for Abellio, which First had known all about.

 

[92002]

It worries me when a franchise changes hands and performance dips. Especially when its gone from a relatively unloved (from a corporate perspective) idiosyncratic service using odd and ancient stock to one where its the whole focus of the contract and is probably getting the full management attention it deserves now.
There's a very good chance that years of cut price but necessary bodges are starting to be uncovered as First 'patched and mended' the stock to keep it running at lowest possible cost. How many quick work arounds and potentially undocumented safety related system shortcuts have they found and are now trying to fix properly?
It's not necessarily all a case of poor management, but a new focus thats uncovering this. It's certainly the case for the main ScotRail franchise. All the skeletons are falling out of the cupboard for Abellio, which First had known all about.

With the vehicle maintenance now beng done by Alstom at Polmadie and Wembley the reliability should show an improvement. Staff there used to have many Mk 2 and Mk 3s to deal with in their last life before pendolino appeared.

What's really needed though is major overhaul until the new stock arrives.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think the last two posts are maybe a bit unfair on the likes of Bodiddly who has posted honestly about how hard they worked.

I would however be interested in what skeletons Abellio are now finding?

 

[47271]

Some more, albeit more informal than ORR, stats if it helps everyone relax a little.

I had a pint yesterday with my mate who uses the sleeper ultra frequently. He happened to have his laptop with him and we were able to go through his expenses records for the period since Serco took over in April, and the corresponding period under First in 2014. He had to rely on memory only for out of the way incidents, but he was pretty clear when he looked at other claim activity around a problem.

Total single journeys booked April-October:
2014 - 25; 2015 - 27

Cancelled services in period:
2014 - 1 (OHL brought down at Carlisle 9 July); 2015 - 1 (no guard 22 June)

Serious delays leading to compensation in period:
2014 - 0; 2015 - 1 (carriage fault 29 July, five and a half hour delay, indeed the incident sparking this thread)

Other notable farcical incidents in period: 2014 - 1 (no lounge service due to staff shortage 9 August, passengers went to M&S at Euston and self catered); 2015 - 1 (two sleeper coaches missing from fully booked train 15 October, only witnessed this, not directly inconvenienced)

With the exception of the incident on 22 June this year, all cancellations and delays were handled professionally and efficiently by both crew and companies under both managements. Even communication around the 22 June 2015 incident was dealt with well once they'd got control of the situation from around 1130pm onwards.

Planned disruptions or reactions to earlier problems (engineering work both periods and flooding at Kingussie in August 2014) were well planned and communicated by both companies.

So that's a reliability rate of 96% in 2014 and 96.7% in 2015. There was no need for delay repay at all in 2014 and 3.7% incidence of it this year.

He experienced no noticeable impact from Serco's early traction challenges, only lounge chat like 'the 87 is on again tonight'.

Had it not been for rolling stock issues (the enormous delay in July and the recent missing sleepers) then the record would've actually been better overall. From memory, and no record of something as trivial as this had been kept, there have been far more berth moves on the night from the original booking as a result of out of service or faulty coaches this year - perhaps five this year versus one last.

Also he points out that customer service from the Inverness based office team, bedding and food are all substantially improved from Scotrail days, and all of these are considered to be significant benefits.

So there's no panic amongst the regulars.

 

[Chrism20]

With the vehicle maintenance now beng done by Alstom at Polmadie and Wembley the reliability should show an improvement. Staff there used to have many Mk 2 and Mk 3s to deal with in their last life before pendolino appeared.

What's really needed though is major overhaul until the new stock arrives.

The first pendolinos started to arrive in 2002 so realistically how many Mk2/3s have they had to deal with on a regular basis since Virgin stopped using them to keep that level of knowledge?

Also anyone there who has started since 2002 probably has little experience of them at all and this will probably be a decent chunk of the workforce. For some it will just be a refresher to get back up to speed, others will be starting from scratch.

They really need an overhaul but will they get one with the new rolling stock on the way? I doubt there would be any value to doing it as there isn't likely to be any takers for them once they go off lease.

 

[Bodiddly]

I think the last two posts are maybe a bit unfair on the likes of Bodiddly who has posted honestly about how hard they worked.

I would however be interested in what skeletons Abellio are now finding?

Thanks Bt, but as you have more than likely worked out about these forums having hands on experience and a more than healthy working knowledge of a subject is construed as talking nonsense by some people. :roll:

 

[87015]

With the vehicle maintenance now beng done by Alstom at Polmadie and Wembley the reliability should show an improvement. Staff there used to have many Mk 2 and Mk 3s to deal with in their last life before pendolino appeared.

Hmm, not really the locations you'd have linked to quality maintenance on WCML Mk3 sets - PO in particular had a terrible reputation. That was without other stuff being a higher priority as well!

87002 took the stock that hadn't worked the Edinburgh portion on Friday night north as ECS on Saturday I understand.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Thanks Bt, but as you have more than likely worked out about these forums having hands on experience and a more than healthy working knowledge of a subject is construed as talking nonsense by some people. :roll:

Agreed in this case certainly. I know from all kind of experience of quick turn rounds, past sleaper trips and more how hard you Inverness guys work and object to any implication otherwise. Further more on my past 2 trips since Serco came that things are not as they were with Crew and pax commenting and things clearly not as they were.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
87015, Im with you also

 

[47271]

Agreed in this case certainly. I know from all kind of experience of quick turn rounds, past sleaper trips and more how hard you Inverness guys work and object to any implication otherwise. Further more on my past 2 trips since Serco came that things are not as they were with Crew and pax commenting and things clearly not as they were.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
87015, Im with you also

Likewise, one of the underlying conclusions from my post above was that carriage maintenance standards and reliability have declined very noticeably to regular users since the move of maintenance from Inverness. Were it not for that change then one very frequent passenger would've experienced an overall improvement in the service.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Likewise, one of the underlying conclusions from my post above was that carriage maintenance standards and reliability have declined very noticeably to regular users since the move of maintenance from Inverness. Were it not for that change then one very frequent passenger would've experienced an overall improvement in the service.

Seems like the same old story, again and again.

Why is it, after 2.45 million different titles every year on "good management" and "star leadership", after every sixth graduate goes on to do a "career enhancing, life changing" MBA - time and time again managers make decisions just like this?

Yes, it may cut costs and look great on paper - but it just don't work and leads to crappier results.

And does the person responsible take the rap? you can bet not 19 times out of 20.
<sigh>

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the maintenance and servicing of the locos, do Shields Road still retain the knowledge and skills today?

According to my BR Spotters Companion book from 1989, Shields Road used to have 5 Class 87 locos allocated there.

 

[captainbigun]

Regarding the maintenance and servicing of the locos, do Shields Road still retain the knowledge and skills today?

According to my BR Spotters Companion book from 1989, Shields Road used to have 5 Class 87 locos allocated there.

Short answer, no.

 

[87015]

The Edinbugh portion has been cancelled for most of this week, shows as due to a driver issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Edinbugh portion has been cancelled for most of this week, shows as due to a driver issue.

That's very bad. They seem to be keeping it quiet, too.

Surely traincrew can be hired in at that sort of notice? Or are they lying about the reason?