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Caledonian Sleeper discussion

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jimm

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The nightstar trains that never operated? They were built for HS1, not for the mainlines of Great Britain. More reason for Serco to think for a better long term solution.

That Nightstar trains never operated had naff-all to do with the capabilities of the Class 92. Simple economics, as it was decided late in the day that they were never going to make any money.

Had Nightstar services begun as planned, they would have been running for many years on the mainlines of Great Britain with the Class 92s operating on 750v DC and 25kv - the rolling stock was built in the 1990s to UK loading gauge. HS1 wasn't even open until late 2007.

Spot the difference between a North American loading gauge loco and ViaRail Renaissance (ex-Nightstar) stock as now used in Canada... https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gT7YLJmajzk/maxresdefault.jpg

A straight-electric loco, based on a Class 88, might be a possible solution for Scottish sleeper services but it would be an expensive order, for a handful of locomotives, so the odds of it happening any time soon look remote.

And windscreen wipers can fail on expensive new traction as well...
 
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Highland37

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What's the ongoing issue with the 92s? It's certainly taking some time to sort things out.
 

HSTEd

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No. Eventually Serco or GBRf will realise the 92 wasn't built to operate sleeper trains and may have to look into alternatives that doesn't include leasing locomotives off Freightliner as a long term solution.

That is literally one of the primary reasons they were built.
 

captainbigun

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That is literally one of the primary reasons they were built.

Indeed. Yet more hot air. Anyone here directly involved with CS or the 92 programme or is it platform end wibble?

92014, fully modified, has already shown that there's no issue. This loco had put in the best performance for a class 92, ever. So, stop talking crapola and move on.
 
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43096

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Indeed. Yet more hot air. Anyone here directly involved with CS or the 92 programme or is it platform end wibble?

That's a rhetorical question if ever there was one! I think where previously there was "platform end wibble" it is now "railway forum wibble".
 

leomartin125

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Indeed. Yet more hot air. Anyone here directly involved with CS or the 92 programme or is it platform end wibble?

92014, fully modified, has already shown that there's no issue. This loco had put in the best performance for a class 92, ever. So, stop talking crapola and move on.

If it has performed so well, then why are ALL the sleepers 90 hauled yet again?
 

47271

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One year on (see below from 26 October 2015), and another Sunday lunchtime drink or two later, I thought that it might be useful to post an identical analysis of performance experienced by one ultra regular since April of this year. This excludes the near two month period covering the Lamington disruption - just about every journey was free then - and what was probably the darkest days of the maintenance issues in the run up to the CS crew strikes right at the end of 2015.

Total single journeys booked April-October: 29

Cancelled services in period: 0

Serious delays leading to compensation: 4 (electrical fault in sleeper coach removed at Crewe 17 Aug, train cancelled at Perth at 0930; two occasions of replacement buses north of Edinburgh because of Scotrail conductors dispute; item of furniture thrown onto track north of Preston)

Other notable farcical incidents: 3 (no water in taps, only one functioning microwave delaying food service by 90 mins, one cabin move due to broken aircon)

So if you allow a cancellation at Perth as a delay repay rather than a complete failure then that's a 100% record on getting through. Of the four compensation cases, you could argue that three could be blamed on CS since they could have done more to mitigate the Scotrail dispute.

Dry taps is pretty shoddy and the microwave meant that no dinner arrived until 1030pm.

The only other technical issue raised was very poor temperature control in the lounges: cold in winter, roasting in summer until the train gets up some speed out of Euston. Cabin aircon was bang on, other than the one easily remedied incident mentioned above, even in the warmest weather.

And for another year, nothing whatsoever connected with traction.


Some more, albeit more informal than ORR, stats if it helps everyone relax a little.

I had a pint yesterday with my mate who uses the sleeper ultra frequently. He happened to have his laptop with him and we were able to go through his expenses records for the period since Serco took over in April, and the corresponding period under First in 2014. He had to rely on memory only for out of the way incidents, but he was pretty clear when he looked at other claim activity around a problem.

Total single journeys booked April-October:
2014 - 25; 2015 - 27

Cancelled services in period:
2014 - 1 (OHL brought down at Carlisle 9 July); 2015 - 1 (no guard 22 June)

Serious delays leading to compensation in period:
2014 - 0; 2015 - 1 (carriage fault 29 July, five and a half hour delay, indeed the incident sparking this thread)

Other notable farcical incidents in period: 2014 - 1 (no lounge service due to staff shortage 9 August, passengers went to M&S at Euston and self catered); 2015 - 1 (two sleeper coaches missing from fully booked train 15 October, only witnessed this, not directly inconvenienced)

With the exception of the incident on 22 June this year, all cancellations and delays were handled professionally and efficiently by both crew and companies under both managements. Even communication around the 22 June 2015 incident was dealt with well once they'd got control of the situation from around 1130pm onwards.

Planned disruptions or reactions to earlier problems (engineering work both periods and flooding at Kingussie in August 2014) were well planned and communicated by both companies.

So that's a reliability rate of 96% in 2014 and 96.7% in 2015. There was no need for delay repay at all in 2014 and 3.7% incidence of it this year.

He experienced no noticeable impact from Serco's early traction challenges, only lounge chat like 'the 87 is on again tonight'.

Had it not been for rolling stock issues (the enormous delay in July and the recent missing sleepers) then the record would've actually been better overall. From memory, and no record of something as trivial as this had been kept, there have been far more berth moves on the night from the original booking as a result of out of service or faulty coaches this year - perhaps five this year versus one last.

Also he points out that customer service from the Inverness based office team, bedding and food are all substantially improved from Scotrail days, and all of these are considered to be significant benefits.

So there's no panic amongst the regulars.
 
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CosherB

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I think along with the new MK5 CAF stock, C/S need a new locomotive that is specially designed to haul the Sleeper at Class 90 speed, with the same ETS rating as a 92, and the reliability of a 68. But will it happen? No. Eventually Serco or GBRf will realise the 92 wasn't built to operate sleeper trains and may have to look into alternatives that doesn't include leasing locomotives off Freightliner as a long term solution.

Rubbish. As others have said, through the admittedly a rather long drawn-out period of ironing out wrinkles with the 92s with Wabtec, GBRf appear to be getting on top of their issues and are now turning in impressive performances. GBRf will now be going through the 92 CS pool of locos to make the same modifications to those done on 92014.

Assuming for a moment that Serco hadn't won the CS contract and an alternative provider won with a DBC traction offering, what do you think they would have to haul the Anglo-Scottish CAF Mk5s? Class 92s methinks .....

Are you anti GBRf/Class 92?
 

LowLevel

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On 1S25 tonight - Aberdeen portion lounge car is knackered (seems to be electrical issues) so everyone in the Inverness one which is rather busy!
 

Fishplate84

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Assuming for a moment that Serco hadn't won the CS contract and an alternative provider won with a DBC traction offering, what do you think they would have to haul the Anglo-Scottish CAF Mk5s? Class 92s methinks .....


Did any other bidder propose new stock?
The alternative would have been a last gasp refresh and years of short formation services and rakes mixed with refurbished and non refurbished coaches. Very messy. And, you'd still be looking at the prospect of moving into the next contract with 50 year old stock. Pretty easy to see how that would lead to the service being killed off at that point.
 

47271

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On 1S25 tonight - Aberdeen portion lounge car is knackered (seems to be electrical issues) so everyone in the Inverness one which is rather busy!
Ach, plenty of space on the Highlander on a Monday night. :)

And, technical issues aside, you'll have the Inverness A Team on - I bet the service looks like an advert for VisitScotland - tell me if I'm wrong!
 

LowLevel

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Ach, plenty of space on the Highlander on a Monday night. :)

And, technical issues aside, you'll have the Inverness A Team on - I bet the service looks like an advert for VisitScotland - tell me if I'm wrong!

I've had this crew on before to be fair - they really are excellent. I personally love the service - just hopefully the new stock will support the staff in the way they deserve!
 

47271

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I've had this crew on before to be fair - they really are excellent. I personally love the service - just hopefully the new stock will support the staff in the way they deserve!
Good man. You could put that lot on a Pacer and they'd make it look like the Orient Express, they're the best.
 

NotATrainspott

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Assuming for a moment that Serco hadn't won the CS contract and an alternative provider won with a DBC traction offering, what do you think they would have to haul the Anglo-Scottish CAF Mk5s? Class 92s methinks .....


Did any other bidder propose new stock?
The alternative would have been a last gasp refresh and years of short formation services and rakes mixed with refurbished and non refurbished coaches. Very messy. And, you'd still be looking at the prospect of moving into the next contract with 50 year old stock. Pretty easy to see how that would lead to the service being killed off at that point.

Both First and Arriva supposedly offered refurbished Mk3s. Between submission and the announcement of the winning bid there were media reports about the fact that the Serco bid was excellent and the others weren't worth the paper they were written on.

Somewhere in this thread I posted a link to the company which drew up the concepts for the refurbished Mk3 interior, if you want to go looking.
 

leomartin125

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Rubbish. As others have said, through the admittedly a rather long drawn-out period of ironing out wrinkles with the 92s with Wabtec, GBRf appear to be getting on top of their issues and are now turning in impressive performances. GBRf will now be going through the 92 CS pool of locos to make the same modifications to those done on 92014.

Assuming for a moment that Serco hadn't won the CS contract and an alternative provider won with a DBC traction offering, what do you think they would have to haul the Anglo-Scottish CAF Mk5s? Class 92s methinks .....

Are you anti GBRf/Class 92?

I'm not anti GBRf Class 92, in fact I do rather like the loco's when they work properly, but I haven't seen 92014 in a while and 92033 seems to be out of service too after it's traction motor overhaul. Most likely maintenance though, and I hope that the 92's can come back soon so Freightliner can finally be relieved of their 90's.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
May I also ask why the sleepers are timed to stop at Warrington Bank Quay? They almost never do, what is this for?
 

dcd

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I see the newest 73 rebuild , 73971 was on the Aberdeen run this morning. I hope all the modifications prove to be successful.
 

Iskra

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I'm not anti GBRf Class 92, in fact I do rather like the loco's when they work properly, but I haven't seen 92014 in a while and 92033 seems to be out of service too after it's traction motor overhaul. Most likely maintenance though, and I hope that the 92's can come back soon so Freightliner can finally be relieved of their 90's.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
May I also ask why the sleepers are timed to stop at Warrington Bank Quay? They almost never do, what is this for?

Probably to allow for a crew change if necessary.
 

37038

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Assuming 66733 73971 on the ABD portion this morning? Interested as myself and a friend are on it tonight
 

Deafdoggie

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Hi. I thought the Fort William portion only had two sleeper coaches? But when I looked at a booking for the summer, there were two standard class coaches (W & X) and two First class coaches (Y & Z) Any ideas why? Or am I mistaken and there are always four sleeper coaches?
 

godfreycomplex

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May I also ask why the sleepers are timed to stop at Warrington Bank Quay? They almost never do, what is this for?

It was for a driver change when EWS/DB crewed it; not sure though. I think the GBRF drivers come from Willesden TCD so presumably so long as they sign to Preston they can swap over there. All sleepers stop at Preston to take on breakfast as we know.
 

37038

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Hi. I thought the Fort William portion only had two sleeper coaches? But when I looked at a booking for the summer, there were two standard class coaches (W & X) and two First class coaches (Y & Z) Any ideas why? Or am I mistaken and there are always four sleeper coaches?

IIRC, 2/3 sleeper coaches go forward from EDB to FTW with the 2 day coaches being attached at EDB
 
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