Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[hexagon789]

1M11 seats out of use tonight, seated passengers upgraded to berths.

90047 leading us south, 92023 on the blocks

Seems to be getting quite frequent now that the seated coach is out of use.

 

[TimboM]

Seems to be getting quite frequent now that the seated coach is out of use.

They're something like 40-odd years old, hardly surprising.
Could do with replacing I reckon...

Talking of which, planned test runs for Mk5s in the schedules for next week.

 

[hexagon789]

They're something like 40-odd years old, hardly surprising.
Could do with replacing I reckon...

Talking of which, planned test runs for Mk5s in the schedules for next week.

I appreciate they are getting on a bit (1974/5 I think), but they seem to be failing ever more frequently. Hopefully the Mk5s will improve matters.

 

[TimboM]

I appreciate they are getting on a bit (1974/5 I think), but they seem to be failing ever more frequently. Hopefully the Mk5s will improve matters.

When you get to that sort of age you do start "failing" more often from constant use as the weeks/months go by. I'm beginning to find that out myself

 

[hexagon789]

When you get to that sort of age you do start "failing" more often from constant use as the weeks/months go by. I'm beginning to find that out myself

I really not sure how to reply to that!

 

[TimboM]

I really not sure how to reply to that!

Oh yes, see how that could've been interpreted. Meant legs, arms, back... that sort of thing. Cleanse your mind

 

[Scotrail84]

1M11 seats out of use tonight, seated passengers upgraded to berths.

90047 leading us south, 92023 on the blocks

Same for 1M16

 

[Scotrail84]

018 and 010 on 1M16 with 010 going at Wembley

 

[Gonzoiku]

Poorly loco this morning on the way to Inverness. Left EDB an hour late. Apparently without Power. Cancelled at Perth and passengers being bussed.
Cost my colleague a days work as he has an infrequent onward connection too though at least he will get a refund which will go some way towards it.

I wouldn't bank on the refund if I were him, based on my similar recent experience. Woken at 0530 for de-training at Perth - no heat - and onward coach to Inverness calling at all stations for set down and pick up of day train passengers. Arrived Inverness nearly an hour late. Asked about compensation, and was immediately offered 50% for the late arrival. What about lost sleep? Here's a £5 NRV - all in line with Guest Charter! I asked for escalation, as the same Guest Charter speaks of compensation for downgrading, and 3 hours in a cramped coach is far below even a seated sleeper, let alone a first class berth.

They reconsidered, and upped the offer to £40 NRV. They just don't get it - the hour's delay is irrelevant in comparison to three hours' lost sleep (and no breakfast aside orange juice and the muffin).

A sad contrast with their 100% unprompted refund in 2016 - https://www.railforums.co.uk/posts/2635230/

GZ

 

[Gonzoiku]

I appreciate they are getting on a bit (1974/5 I think), but they seem to be failing ever more frequently. Hopefully the Mk5s will improve matters.

And perhaps the Serco decision to move maintenance from Scotrail at Inverness to Alstom in Glasgow had an impact - I suspect with vintage stock, you have to know the foibles of each piece of equipment. An avoidable loss of knowledge.

GZ

 

[BRX]

While the mk5s may be the solution to the failing seated/lounge mk2s - the way it looks to me, their approaching introduction is also the cause of any increase in failure rate thanks to an unwillingness to invest in sufficient repairs to stock that is soon to become redundant. Or is it just a coincidence, that in their 40 year career, problems start to get worse just before new stock arrives?

It doesn't seem right to me - they should be maintained at a consistent level of serviceability and the responsibility to do that should only stop once the mk5s are actually there and ready to replace them. I doubt the franchise agreement gives different requirements for the standard of service that's expected 3 years, 3 months or 3 days before new stock is introduced.

 

[Highlandspring]

73968 is out with 4 mk5 coaches today doing inital test runs up and down the R&C between Polmadie and Mossend Yard, ahead of the full testing program starting tomorrow with runs up the West Highland line.

 

[robbeech]

I wouldn't bank on the refund if I were him, based on my similar recent experience. Woken at 0530 for de-training at Perth - no heat - and onward coach to Inverness calling at all stations for set down and pick up of day train passengers. Arrived Inverness nearly an hour late. Asked about compensation, and was immediately offered 50% for the late arrival. What about lost sleep? Here's a £5 NRV - all in line with Guest Charter! I asked for escalation, as the same Guest Charter speaks of compensation for downgrading, and 3 hours in a cramped coach is far below even a seated sleeper, let alone a first class berth.

They reconsidered, and upped the offer to £40 NRV. They just don't get it - the hour's delay is irrelevant in comparison to three hours' lost sleep (and no breakfast aside orange juice and the muffin).

A sad contrast with their 100% unprompted refund in 2016 - https://www.railforums.co.uk/posts/2635230/

GZ

We aren't hugely worried, we will be getting a refund for it even if it takes a fight. I suspect in your case you were less than an hour late so were entitled to 50% of a refund, anything on top would be a gesture of good will which it appeared you got. He was 2 hours late so easily entitled to a full refund of £240 or so PLUS the onward travel to Elgin which was subsequently missed.
There was no breakfast, but breakfast is included in the first class fare, no additional compensation is necessary here in my opinion.
His return trip is this evening so we shall hope that goes to plan.

 

[route101]

1M11 seats out of use tonight, seated passengers upgraded to berths.

90047 leading us south, 92023 on the blocks

I was going the other way Euston to Glasgow . 86 to Wembley then 90 up North . I was in seated and only 5 people in it including me . Was your service busy and did you have to share berth?

 

[TimboM]

And perhaps the Serco decision to move maintenance from Scotrail at Inverness to Alstom in Glasgow had an impact - I suspect with vintage stock, you have to know the foibles of each piece of equipment. An avoidable loss of knowledge.

GZ

Whilst the 'main' bases are now Polmadie, maintenance is still carried out at Inverness and Aberdeen and major overhauls are carried out at Inverness - e.g. https://flic.kr/p/Jt62sF In addition, the more extensive repair work gets done at Brodies in Kilmarnock.

While the mk5s may be the solution to the failing seated/lounge mk2s - the way it looks to me, their approaching introduction is also the cause of any increase in failure rate thanks to an unwillingness to invest in sufficient repairs to stock that is soon to become redundant. Or is it just a coincidence, that in their 40 year career, problems start to get worse just before new stock arrives?

It doesn't seem right to me - they should be maintained at a consistent level of serviceability and the responsibility to do that should only stop once the mk5s are actually there and ready to replace them. I doubt the franchise agreement gives different requirements for the standard of service that's expected 3 years, 3 months or 3 days before new stock is introduced.

It's a fair observation - and it must be a difficult balance to achieve between ensuring 40-odd year-old stock remains serviceable, but also recognising some of it only has a few months left so any investment in it has to be done sensibly. The limited number of brake/seated and lounge coaches also means there's more likely to be 'patch-up' jobs done rather than being able to take coaches out of service for 'full' repairs. The existing fleet (pre any hire-ins) has 11x Brake/Seats and 11x Lounge coaches - 9 are required each night, meaning 2 "spare" to cover coaches on exam/overhaul/maintenance/repair/failed etc. As the fleet ages, the routine exams etc. are still required, but the ad hoc failures/repairs increase - yet there's still only the same capacity in the fleet as there was previously to cover this.

The continuous procession of coaches too/from Brodies each week, GBRf running locos round the country to collect/swap hired-in coaches (presumably at Serco's expense) and the recent Serco financial results citing the higher than expected operating costs of keeping the old fleet going are indications that a sizeable amount of cost/effort is going into keeping the stock going in its final weeks/months. You're right that the franchise agreement doesn't make any allowances and as well as these direct costs, Serco will also be feeling the pain via delays, cancellations, loss of customer goodwill etc.

As always, more could be done/spent - but then the counter argument would be for a service which is heavily subsidised by public money (including the many millions of public money that's gone into the new stock) - should more money be spent on stock on its last legs? It's a tricky balance - maybe Serco aren't getting it right currently but I don't envy whoever's trying to manage the situation.

One factor that may or may not be relevant is the Brake/Lounge coaches are owned by Serco, whereas the Mk3 Sleepers are leased from ROSCOs. I'd assume Serco see little value in the Mk2s once the Mk5s are in service as realistically other than a couple going to preserved lines, most will probably end up getting scrapped. The ROSCOs on the other hand will have various requirements as to the condition of the stock when returned to them.

 

[BRX]

As always, more could be done/spent - but then the counter argument would be for a service which is heavily subsidised by public money (including the many millions of public money that's gone into the new stock) - should more money be spent on stock on its last legs? It's a tricky balance - maybe Serco aren't getting it right currently but I don't envy whoever's trying to manage the situation.

I'd go with that to an extent if it were public money directly paying for repairs - but it's a franchise where Serco made their bid to provide a certain level of service at a certain standard. If it's costing more than they expected to keep the old fleet going then that's their mistake/bad luck and frankly therefore their problem! They are a commercial entity which knows that any bid they make carries some risk of some things costing more than their estimates. If it had been costing less than they expected, they wouldn't be handing back any cash!

 

[robbeech]

The question i always ask is. If you're ready for a new car, and you're going to scrap your old one. 6 months before hand, if you have a catastrophic failure then you have to fix it. If however, the heated rear screen packs up, or one of the rear headrests gets ripped when you put something big and heavy into the car, the chances are you're not going to replace it. The things you are willing to do will get marginally less the closer you get to scrapping the car until you are left with purely safety critical items, and lets face it. You'd run with 2 rear tyres with very low (but legal) tread on for a few weeks.

 

[TimboM]

I'd go with that to an extent if it were public money directly paying for repairs - but it's a franchise where Serco made their bid to provide a certain level of service at a certain standard. If it's costing more than they expected to keep the old fleet going then that's their mistake/bad luck and frankly therefore their problem! They are a commercial entity which knows that any bid they make carries some risk of some things costing more than their estimates. If it had been costing less than they expected, they wouldn't be handing back any cash!

Agreed - the (publicly available) evidence at least would suggest it is hurting them (badly) in the pocket trying to keep the old stock going. Should it be hurting them even more, though...? As you say, they're a commercial entity and will be looking to try and manage that balance - and nurse the stock through its final days.

@robbeech - good analogy.

 

[BRX]

The question i always ask is. If you're ready for a new car, and you're going to scrap your old one. 6 months before hand, if you have a catastrophic failure then you have to fix it. If however, the heated rear screen packs up, or one of the rear headrests gets ripped when you put something big and heavy into the car, the chances are you're not going to replace it. The things you are willing to do will get marginally less the closer you get to scrapping the car until you are left with purely safety critical items, and lets face it. You'd run with 2 rear tyres with very low (but legal) tread on for a few weeks.

For sure you'd do that if you own the car, and pay for its upkeep directly.

A better analogy would be where you've signed up for business broadband, on a subscription where you've paid for a minimum of 100Mbps. Halfway through your contract you notice it keeps going down to 25 so you phone up your ISP to complain. If they tell you, "well, yes that's right, it's not what you paid for but the thing is, we don't really want to fix it properly just now because at the end of the year we're going to replace the entire exchange so can you just hang on for a few months, your internet will be a bit shonky in the meantime but that's ok, yeah?" - I don't think you'd accept that. It's their problem that their equipment is failing ahead of the wholesale replacement, not yours.

Anyway. I'm planning to go up on the seats in the next few weeks. If the heating's broken and they bump me to a berth for the same price I won't complain. If I have to sit in the dark/cold all night then I definitely will.

 

[robbeech]

For sure you'd do that if you own the car, and pay for its upkeep directly.

A better analogy would be where you've signed up for business broadband, on a subscription where you've paid for a minimum of 100Mbps. Halfway through your contract you notice it keeps going down to 25 so you phone up your ISP to complain. If they tell you, "well, yes that's right, it's not what you paid for but the thing is, we don't really want to fix it properly just now because at the end of the year we're going to replace the entire exchange so can you just hang on for a few months, your internet will be a bit shonky in the meantime but that's ok, yeah?" - I don't think you'd accept that. It's their problem that their equipment is failing ahead of the wholesale replacement, not yours.

Anyway. I'm planning to go up on the seats in the next few weeks. If the heating's broken and they bump me to a berth for the same price I won't complain. If I have to sit in the dark/cold all night then I definitely will.

This is a valid point. Would you get a discount for the last few months of that broadband before it all became much better, and would CS get a discount for poor reliability?

 

[BRX]

Agreed - the (publicly available) evidence at least would suggest it is hurting them (badly) in the pocket trying to keep the old stock going. Should it be hurting them even more, though...?

It's not our problem how much it's hurting them. They are a huge company and can bear the cost. There will be other companies who lost out in the bidding process, who, perhaps, lost out partly as a result of making a more realistic assessment of ongoing maintenance costs. Part of the idea of privatisation/franchising is supposed to be that the private companies like Serco take a potential profit in exchange for commercial risk. If we go soft on them we end up with the worst of both worlds! Franchisees who get lucky take the profit, whilst we pay out for those who don't.

 

[BRX]

This is a valid point. Would you get a discount for the last few months of that broadband before it all became much better, and would CS get a discount for poor reliability?

I think I'd be asking for a discount on my home broadband if that happened, although that doesn't solve the problem for a business that relies on a minimum level of internet speed to function properly. You could argue that bumping seated passengers to berths on nights where the coach is broken provides a not-worse-than-contracted-for public service and I can see that Serco might make a calculation that this is a less expensive solution than fixing the coach for a limited period of remaining service. Not sure how you do that without restricting berth availability though. If the result of the seats being out of action on nights when tere are no spare berths is that people can't travel, or are sent by bus or whatever, then the "discount" analogy falls away because they are simply failing to provide the service agreed, in the same way that a business broadband supplier would be if the business can't function as a result.

 

[GW43125]

As of 10:45 this morning, 92018 and 92010 (London End) were top & tailing a sleeper rake easily viewable from the DC lines.

Having passed around 10 minutes ago, 92018 was standing light loco on the Up Goods outside the yard. Loco swap maybe?

86101 is currently visible from the DC lines.

 

[ScottDarg]

Was your service busy

I thought so - only 2 seats were available in the seated coach when I last checked

you have to share berth?

Nearly - they had us all allocated to specific berths and they had put me in with a female. As opposite genders sharing a berth if they're strangers is against their policy (I think) I was moved to a single berth

 

[TimboM]

As of 10:45 this morning, 92018 and 92010 (London End) were top & tailing a sleeper rake easily viewable from the DC lines.

Having passed around 10 minutes ago, 92018 was standing light loco on the Up Goods outside the yard. Loco swap maybe?

86101 is currently visible from the DC lines.

92010 was attached to 1M16 this morning for the drawback to Euston from Wembley (after the reversal there due to ECML diversion). You'll have seen the ECS (5M16) with the two locos back at Wembley.

Tonight 92018 is on the Highlander again (1S25) and 92010 is working the Lowlander (1S26) having first taken the Highlander stock in (5S95) - so you will have seen 018 this evening ready to 'chase' in 5S95 to attach to it in Euston and work 1S25.

86101 is under-going repairs at Willesden.
86401 is also at Willesden/Wembley currently - most likely working the Lowlander ECS (5S96) in tonight from Wembley.

 

[marks87]

I thought so - only 2 seats were available in the seated coach when I last checked



Nearly - they had us all allocated to specific berths and they had put me in with a female. As opposite genders sharing a berth if they're strangers is against their policy (I think) I was moved to a single berth

Was the option of cancelling travel and getting a full refund on the table as well?

I can't say I'd be happy with booking a seat then being expected to share a cabin with a stranger.

 

[captainbigun]

86101 is under-going repairs at Willesden.
86401 is also at Willesden/Wembley currently - most likely working the Lowlander ECS (5S96) in tonight from Wembley.

86101 is not receiving repairs at Willesden, it will be leaving for repairs next week.
86401 remained at WB, rare for the ECS loco to return unless there’s repair or consumables required.

 

[TimboM]

86101 is not receiving repairs at Willesden, it will be leaving for repairs next week.

Barrow Hill?

 

[Scotrail84]

92010 was attached to 1M16 this morning for the drawback to Euston from Wembley (after the reversal there due to ECML diversion). You'll have seen the ECS (5M16) with the two locos back at Wembley.

Tonight 92018 is on the Highlander again (1S25) and 92010 is working the Lowlander (1S26) having first taken the Highlander stock in (5S95) - so you will have seen 018 this evening ready to 'chase' in 5S95 to attach to it in Euston and work 1S25.

86101 is under-going repairs at Willesden.
86401 is also at Willesden/Wembley currently - most likely working the Lowlander ECS (5S96) in tonight from Wembley.

See post #7009 ;-D

 

[hexagon789]

Oh yes, see how that could've been interpreted. Meant legs, arms, back... that sort of thing. Cleanse your mind

Duly cleansed!