Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[TimboM]

It is a shame that tonight's sleeper has such a long wait at Wembley. I am guessing that they'll throw it in a siding there and attach another loco to it (the one that would normally take it back to the depot) before taking it back in to Euston that way. I assume this makes more financial sense to them that use running it into KGX instead which would save at LEAST an hour, likely more.

For the ECML diversions there's a loco on each end from the beginning (i.e. when the Northbound empty stock leaves Wembley in the evening). The one taking the train to Scotland is on the 'front' (Euston/South) end and takes the stock into Euston for boarding.

The one on the 'back' (North) then hauls the train back from Euston to Wembley Yard, where it is then detached. The one on the South end then takes the train South out of Wembley Yard to Camden Jnc (almost back to Euston - which confuses some passengers!) then loops round onto the ECML and finally heads North.

The reverse happens in the morning, usually with the same two "shuttle" locos attaching on the South end once the Southbound Lowlander and Highlander trains have pulled North into Wembley Yard for the drag-back to Euston. The "main" locos which brought the trains down from Scotland stay attached as they're then used to take the empty stock back to Wembley.

The wait in Wembley Yard (30-40 mins) is for the shunting movement to remove the extra loco and presumably for the driver to swap ends. If it's done quicker, and route is clear, it'll get going sooner.

As najaB has said, the 16-coach sleeper won't fit in Kings Cross (can only fit 12 coaches I believe + 2 locos). That's the main reasons it's not used, rather than cost.

 

[TimboM]

Kings Cross can't take a full length Sleeper set, so they would have to shuffle reservations around as well.

...not only that, but then you have coaches "missing" from and in the additional operational issues that would cause.

When Lamington Viaduct was closed and they went from KingX regularly for an extended period, it made sense to rejig the sets. Doesn't really work for one night.

 

[robbeech]

For the ECML diversions there's a loco on each end from the beginning (i.e. when the Northbound empty stock leaves Wembley in the evening). The one taking the train to Scotland is on the 'front' (Euston/South) end and takes the stock into Euston for boarding.

The one on the 'back' (North) then hauls the train back from Euston to Wembley Yard, where it is then detached. The one on the South end then takes the train South out of Wembley Yard to Camden Jnc (almost back to Euston - which confuses some passengers!) then loops round onto the ECML and finally heads North.

The reverse happens in the morning, usually with the same two "shuttle" locos attaching on the South end once the Southbound Lowlander and Highlander trains have pulled North into Wembley Yard for the drag-back to Euston. The "main" locos which brought the trains down from Scotland stay attached as they're then used to take the empty stock back to Wembley.

The wait in Wembley Yard (30-40 mins) is for the shunting movement to remove the extra loco and presumably for the driver to swap ends. If it's done quicker, and route is clear, it'll get going sooner.

As najaB has said, the 16-coach sleeper won't fit in Kings Cross (can only fit 12 coaches I believe + 2 locos). That's the main reasons it's not used, rather than cost.

I understood this was a shunting / attaching loco move didn't realise it was given so long, I guess there is extra padding for any other potential delays with the move. I had forgotten that King's cross whilst long isn't long enough so this makes sense.

 

[TimboM]

I understood this was a shunting / attaching loco move didn't realise it was given so long, I guess there is extra padding for any other potential delays with the move. I had forgotten that King's cross whilst long isn't long enough so this makes sense.

There is some padding - especially in the mornings the route across from the ECML then back down into Euston at "rush hour" on a Monday morning is pretty congested, so allowances needed to make sure it hits its slot.

Also (and someone will probably be able to confirm the exact manoeuvre) detaching/attaching the extra loco isn't as quick a job as it might sound. The train needs to come to a safe halt, shunter needs to uncouple (or couple when adding), extra loco moved to the siding where it'll stay the night and shut down, driver has to get to the other loco, "fire it up" etc etc. and all whilst ensuring safe operation in a working freight yard. The 16 coach sleeper takes a few minutes to walk from one end to the other for starters.

 

[Essexman]

I'm on the sleeper to Glasgow tonight. It arrives at Edinburgh at 5.39 and Glasgow at 7.57which seems an awfully long time to split the train and run across to Glasgow. Not that I mind, I like the extra time in bed, although probably won't go back to sleep after being woken with the noise at Edinburgh.

 

[najaB]

I'm on the sleeper to Glasgow tonight. It arrives at Edinburgh at 5.39 and Glasgow at 7.57which seems an awfully long time to split the train and run across to Glasgow.

Roughly 50 minutes for the shunting work, and then the long way (via Shotts) to Glasgow.

 

[Scotrail84]

Roughly 50 minutes for the shunting work, and then the long way (via Shotts) to Glasgow.

That will be a 47 or a 73

 

[jopsuk]

Cycling out of Glencoe yesterday morning (on the Tour of the Highlands) saw the magnificent sight of the sleeper up high north of Bridge of Orchy, 73 on the front and scabby looking old virgin mark 2 on the back.

Re Wednesday's train- yes it was the 87 not an 86. Doh. Air-conditioning was dodgy in the lounge car (one of the ones with all fixed seats, no sofas/loose seats) and, unfortunately, my sleeper car (green vinyled). Walking between the two there was a huge contrast in the carriages in between

 

[Essexman]

47 would be goo.

 

[najaB]

47 would be goo.

Hopefully not!

 

[TimboM]

That will be a 47 or a 73

47 would be good.

Looks like Colas Duff 47749 is doing the Glasgow-Edinburgh leg (via Shotts) this evening, so the leading candidate for the return in the morning?

73968 is on the Polmadie-Edinburgh ECS move for the Edinburgh portion stock.

 

[TimboM]

In other news, an STP path went in yesterday for what appears to be a 73 light loco move from Craigentinny to Loughborough Brush. Wondering if it's 73967 which has only had one trip out since its failure at Arbroath a week or so ago.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R01083/2017/05/29/advanced

Assuming there is a move, would mean half of the Sleeper 73/9s in Loughborough (73969/971 already there).

 

[TimboM]

Cycling out of Glencoe yesterday morning (on the Tour of the Highlands) saw the magnificent sight of the sleeper up high north of Bridge of Orchy, 73 on the front and scabby looking old virgin mark 2 on the back.

Re Wednesday's train- yes it was the 87 not an 86. Doh. Air-conditioning was dodgy in the lounge car (one of the ones with all fixed seats, no sofas/loose seats) and, unfortunately, my sleeper car (green vinyled). Walking between the two there was a huge contrast in the carriages in between

Was 73970 you saw. Great place for a bike ride!
I thought they'd finished with needing the scabby Virgin coach(es) on the Fort Bill, but evidently not.

 

[jopsuk]

It was a stunning morning yesterday,would have been glorious having breakfast across Rannoch Moor. Made for a tough ride- baking g hot and humid as we headed up the Ben Lawers road

 

[Scotrail84]

Looks like Colas Duff 47749 is doing the Glasgow-Edinburgh leg (via Shotts) this evening, so the leading candidate for the return in the morning?

73968 is on the Polmadie-Edinburgh ECS move for the Edinburgh portion stock.

Aye they 47 will lie off at craigy or the south loop siding or motorail

 

[47271]

It was a stunning morning yesterday,would have been glorious having breakfast across Rannoch Moor. Made for a tough ride- baking g hot and humid as we headed up the Ben Lawers road

You cycled from Glencoe to Ben Lawers in a day, that's a hilly 50 miles plus, I'm impressed!

 

[Kite159]

To save me a potentially long walk at Euston tomorrow morning, which loco is down to working the Up Highlander from Edinburgh to Wembley tonight?

Thanks in advance

 

[TimboM]

To save me a potentially long walk at Euston tomorrow morning, which loco is down to working the Up Highlander from Edinburgh to Wembley tonight?

Thanks in advance

Someone may know for definite, but either 92014 or 92018. They're both at Edinburgh as engineering work means the Glasgow-Edinburgh portion of the Lowlander is diesel hauled via Shotts tonight (by 47749). They'll be working the two Up sleepers tonight along the ECML.

My money would be on 92014 as it worked the Down Highlander on Friday night, but doesn't always follow that pattern.

One of 87002 or 92033 are likely to be the "drag-back" loco from Wembley on the buffers when you get in to Euston, but TBC...

 

[Kite159]

It would be nice to have 92018 (as I've had 92014 already), similarly I would prefer the 87 (as again I've had that 90). Knowing my luck it will probably be a trio of duds!

 

[TimboM]

It would be nice to have 92018 (as I've had 92014 already), similarly I would prefer the 87 (as again I've had that 90). Knowing my luck it will probably be a trio of duds!

I've made a correction - 90042 has just lead the Lowlander ECS into Euston, so will be taking the train North. 92033 will be your other option on the "drag-back" (along with 87002).

86401 is also at Willesden as an outside chance, but only if there's an issue with one of the other two I suspect.

For 70% of the time there's been the recent Sun/Mon ECML diversions the "Wembley" locos have stuck to their respective Highlanders in the pm and am. If this happens you'll get 87002. However, the other 30% of the time they've switched...

There's a photo here of 014 and 018 stabled in Waverley this w/e - not sure if you know Waverley's layout well enough and can apply some logic you can work out which one is likely to go first and take the Lowlander, and which will go second with the Highlander? https://flic.kr/p/VdKH5D

 

[Kite159]

I will wait to find out in the morning, not too familiar with the layout myself

 

[alexf380]

They're in the centre road between platforms 16 and 17, so west facing. The once closest to the camera, 92014, is closest to the buffers. The locos will have to travel at least into Princes Street Gardens in order to move to a different platform to form the train south so I'd say that 018 will be the first to leave on the Lowlander, followed by 014 on the Highlander later in the night.

Could all change though, folks!

 

[TimboM]

They're in the centre road between platforms 16 and 17, so west facing. The once closest to the camera, 92014, is closest to the buffers. The locos will have to travel at least into Princes Street Gardens in order to move to a different platform to form the train south so I'd say that 018 will be the first to leave on the Lowlander, followed by 014 on the Highlander later in the night.

Could all change though, folks!

Based on that and the fact 014 has worked the Highlander all of the past week since it came off the car train on Monday shortens the odds on it being 014 I reckon. Sorry Kite159!

 

[TimboM]

1S26 (Down Lowlander) still appears to be sat at platform in Euston 45 mins after booked departure time. Tweet from a passenger c.15 mins before it was due to leave suggests the 'crew not able to help... driver is nowhere to be seen'. Not entirely sure how accurate this is.

Bit odd as presumably it needed a driver to get the stock in to Euston in the first place (although may not necessarily be the same one who takes it back out).

Good job it's got a 90 on it to make up time as and when it gets going.

 

[Essexman]

1S26 (Down Lowlander) still appears to be sat at platform in Euston 50 mins after booked departure time. Tweet from a passenger c.15 mins before it was due to leave suggests the 'crew not able to help... driver is nowhere to be seen'. Not entirely sure how accurate this is.

Bit odd as presumably it needed a driver to get the stock in to Euston in the first place (although may not necessarily be the same one who takes it back out).

Good job it's got a 90 on it to make up time as and when it gets going.

Yes we're still sat on platform at Euston. Stock was late in but boarded about 21.20. Highlander also left late but not this late.

 

[route101]

Whats the usual formation for the Fort Bill sleeper ?i took it southbound from Fort Bill on friday . i was in seated coach behind the class 73 , then lounge , then 4 sleeper mk3s . I feel it was the wrong way as the seated passengers had to walk through the lounge to buy stuff , i didnt see a buffet counter . Must say was pretty smooth and quiet behind 73 .

 

[Essexman]

Lowlander on our way 22.32 so that's 53 minutes late.

 

[TimboM]

Lowlander on our way 22.32 so that's 53 minutes late.

Assuming no further hold-ups, that should be made up before you reach Edinburgh. Hope the 90 doing 100mph on the ECML to make up time isn't too rocky!

 

[bb21]

Confirmed 92014 on the up Highland tonight, 018 on the Lowland.

Sorry Kite, but I guess it was always gonna happen after all signs pointing to it.

 

[Scotrail84]

Think the 73 is doing 1S26 from Edinburgh. However the 47 may appear on it. If not it will be on 5B26.