Caledonian Sleeper - Delay Repay - Kestrel Trackside Monitoring

[cb a1]

Hi,

I'm looking for some advice.

I was on the Caledonian Sleeper arriving at London Euston last Monday morning. The train was delayed and checking my phone, we arrived just over an hour late.

The next day I started my delay repay claim, gave a link to the relevant service on realtimetrains.co.uk which said in the 'Realtime' column that the train was 60 1/4 L. This matched my observation that the train was over an hour late.

Today I got the following reply:

===========
CALEDONIAN SLEEPER

DELAY REPAY COMPENSATION
DUNDEE - EUSTON 11/11/18
REFUND 50% £86

Thank you for submitting your delay repay claim. The train was 58 minutes late and in line with our terms and conditions you are due a refund of 50% of your fare. I note you quoted realtime trains however we adhere to Kestrel track side monitoring which states 58L.
===========

What are people's thoughts on what my chances would be in challenging this?

I've tried doing site specific searches using Google "site:www.sleeper.scot kestrel" and "site:www.transport.gov.scot sleeper franchise kestrel" to see if I could find anything specifying which trackside monitoring system they use.

Any advice much appreciated.

 

[ScotrailINV]

Kestrel is a product from UIC:

https://www.theuic.com/uicsystems/kestrel.php

Looks like a software package that just pulls information from relevant data feeds like TRUST etc and presents it to CS, but I can't find anything on their website or fact sheets to confirm this.

I highly doubt CS have fitted real time tracking equipment to their fleet, so I'd assume the data has to come from the NR feeds that Real Time Trains etc also use?

 

[cb a1]

Thanks very much.

I've replied to them and noted that they had to make a customised version and hence there is scope for error. I've asked if I can have the open source data feed and location of the trackside monitoring point. No idea if I'll be able to interpret any of it, but if I am missing out on £86 that I'm actually due, I don't mind putting a little effort into trying just in case there is a mistake somewhere.

 

[Llanigraham]

What does RTT show for that train?

 

[ScotrailINV]

No problem.

As far as I can tell, Kestrel is just a bit of software that pulls the data from Network Rail and displays it to CS staff in an easier to read format.

For what it's worth, CS staff have always sorted other issues out for me painlessly after getting in touch - occasionally it's taken a further email to get them to understand an issue and look into it further, but nothing taxing.

Their customer relations team are just a mile down the road from me - we're a pretty laid back bunch up here!

 

[Qwerty133]

Even real time trains has it as 58 (and a quarter) minutes late against the public timetable (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C70064/2018/11/11/advanced) so no scope to argue that you were over an hour late I'm afraid. What has happened is that RTT compares the real time with the working timetable which often has trains arriving at terminuses a few minutes earlier than the public timetable which delay repay is based upon.
It is getting rather boring that many posters have got to the point of believing the railway is always wrong to the point they don't spent the slightest time checking the OP for accuracy or have to question every single decision of a customer service department.

 

[gray1404]

I've just checked this against RTT and sadly the train was only 58 minutes late against the published arrival time in the passenger timetable (it was 60 minutes late against the working timetable but that is not used for delay repay purposes). They have therefore worked out your claim correctly. I know this is very frustrating as that extra 2 minutes would have meant to got more compensation. Some train companies are not so strict in so much that if you are short of a qualifying delay by a minute or so they will give you the benefit. However, your claim has been awarded for the right amount.

The only way someone from your train could get more compensation then that for 30 minutes (i.e. for a 1 hour or 2 hour delay) is if they had another train to catch once they got into London and the delay to the sleeper ended up in them arriving in their final destination 60 or more minutes late. I don't think you had any onward connections did you?

 

[gray1404]

Does anyone know why this service was delayed? It seemed to get later and later the further South it got.

 

[cb a1]

Thanks everyone for the advice

Qwerty133: if it's boring, you don't have to respond to my query. Apologies that I don't understand the nuances of the railway to the level you do and my phone had me arriving over an hour late. At the time, 1 only looked at the RT value which said 60 1/4L. Last night I did try to look again at Realtimetrains, but it tells me that I can only look back 7 days and didn't know that I could look further back.

I have now emailed Caledonian Sleeper back to say that I'm not querying their statement.

 

[RJ]

Even real time trains has it as 58 (and a quarter) minutes late against the public timetable (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C70064/2018/11/11/advanced) so no scope to argue that you were over an hour late I'm afraid. What has happened is that RTT compares the real time with the working timetable which often has trains arriving at terminuses a few minutes earlier than the public timetable which delay repay is based upon.
It is getting rather boring that many posters have got to the point of believing the railway is always wrong to the point they don't spent the slightest time checking the OP for accuracy or have to question every single decision of a customer service department.

It's reasonable to explain the distinction between WTT and GBTT and the impact on delays, but a bit unfair to criticise the querying of their response. Even though it is obvious, CS could have explained to the OP that the public advertised timetable is what delays are measured against, instead of referencing some internal system.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

For info, Darwin's Historical Service Performance service shows that train 17 minutes late leaving Dundee, arriving in Preston 43 minutes late, Crewe "only" 27 late and finally Euston 58 minutes late (sorry). The reason code give is 573, "...a fault on a train in front of this one"

 

[bb21]

Thanks everyone for the advice

Qwerty133: if it's boring, you don't have to respond to my query. Apologies that I don't understand the nuances of the railway to the level you do and my phone had me arriving over an hour late. At the time, 1 only looked at the RT value which said 60 1/4L. Last night I did try to look again at Realtimetrains, but it tells me that I can only look back 7 days and didn't know that I could look further back.

I have now emailed Caledonian Sleeper back to say that I'm not querying their statement.

RTT only give lateness figures against the Working Timetable, not the Public Timetable, the latter being what punctuality is measured against. Why it does that I don't know. I can only imagine it was designed mainly as a tool for enthusiasts, rather than the wider public for compensation purposes. There is no Public Timetable data for passing points so I would imagine running all punctuality data against the Working Timetable cuts down programming load.

So it is more an example of an unsuitable source of information for your purpose.

 

[_toommm_]

RTT only give lateness figures against the Working Timetable, not the Public Timetable, the latter being what punctuality is measured against. Why it does that I don't know. I can only imagine it was designed mainly as a tool for enthusiasts, rather than the wider public for compensation purposes. There is no Public Timetable data for passing points so I would imagine running all punctuality data against the Working Timetable cuts down programming load.

So it is more an example of an unsuitable source of information for your purpose.

If you go out of detailed mode by clicking on 'Less Detail' it shows the public timetable, or if viewing it on a laptop or tablet in landscape, I believe it shows both the WTT and GBTT

 

[Highlandspring]

On TRUST it shows as terminating 60 late against the WTT times and 58 late against the GBTT times.

 

[sprunt]

It is getting rather boring that many posters have got to the point of believing the railway is always wrong to the point they don't spent the slightest time checking the OP for accuracy or have to question every single decision of a customer service department.

Perhaps the railway should contemplate why that might be?

 

[big all]

am i the only one who thinks you pay £172 for a service and its a poor service off course you deserve some form off recompense for your inconvenience
you then hear he had the journey and got half his money back well yes he is deserving even though it does seem a lot for an hours delay sorry 58 mins or about £83 an hour sorry£82 for 58 mins
whilst he is correct in what he is asking for iff everyone had this attitude without a bit off understanding many innovative long distance services will go to the wall as by there nature will have more late arrivals


just a thought

 

[Hadders]

On the other hand since Serco took over the Scottish Sleepers we've seen:

Appalling reliability
Huge increase in berth reservation fees
Refusal to accept Rovers on their last day of validity
Refusal to accept local Scottish Routeing Guide Easements
Withdrawal of through Advance fares on to/from other destinations
Impossible to book a seat reservation when using the seated sleeper between Fort William and Glasgow/Edinburgh despite it being 'Reservations Compulsory'
Seated coaches removed with increasing frequency

It works both ways.

 

[cb a1]

am i the only one who thinks you pay £172 for a service and its a poor service off course you deserve some form off recompense for your inconvenience
you then hear he had the journey and got half his money back well yes he is deserving even though it does seem a lot for an hours delay sorry 58 mins or about £83 an hour sorry£82 for 58 mins
whilst he is correct in what he is asking for iff everyone had this attitude without a bit off understanding many innovative long distance services will go to the wall as by there nature will have more late arrivals

It's a balance. As a customer I should be entitled to compensation for a poor service.

Without Delay Repay it also affects the decision on using rail. If there is no compensation and there is regular delay on a service then it affects your decision on whether to regularly use a service. As a comparison, I know quite a few people who will use any provider other than Ryanair if they can due to Ryanair's policies on avoiding giving any compensation other than the legal minimum.

The Scotrail franchise agreement sets the levels of compensation and the franchisee should have a good understanding of what proportion of services will arrive in the delay repay categories and what proportion of customers will make a claim. They will then make their bid on that basis. If customers choose not to make their claim, it's only putting more profit in the hands of the franchisee, it's not money that will stop the service going to the wall.

 

[Mojo]

am i the only one who thinks you pay £172 for a service and its a poor service off course you deserve some form off recompense for your inconvenience

There is some form of recompense granted however; a delay of over half hour but less than one hour entitles a customer to compensation of 50% of their single ticket (and berth supplement where applicable) or 25% of a return ticket.