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Caledonian Sleeper Class 92's

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TimboM

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Yeah, there used to be more of them though. DB seem to have given up on them for now so aside from light engine movements this is the only working I get to see!

Yes, sadly, DB only have six of theirs in service (24 stored or abroad!) - and all of those six are only set up/approved to work the Tunnel/HS1.

They can no longer work Third Rail (most have had their shoes removed), nor can they work UK 25kv overhead wires. Real shame/waste.

You'll probably see the odd one being dragged to/from Wembley and Dollands Moor. 92015 (the China-UK branded DB Red one) was taken from Crewe Electric yesterday and is currently in Wembley Yard awaiting a tow back to Dollands Moor - so might see that one depending which way it goes and when.

At least GBRf are still providing you the opportunity of seeing them once a week (ish).
 
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BRX

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Yes, sadly, DB only have six of theirs in service (24 stored or abroad!) - and all of those six are only set up/approved to work the Tunnel/HS1.

They can no longer work Third Rail (most have had their shoes removed), nor can they work UK 25kv overhead wires. Real shame/waste.

You'll probably see the odd one being dragged to/from Wembley and Dollands Moor. 92015 (the China-UK branded DB Red one) was taken from Crewe Electric yesterday and is currently in Wembley Yard awaiting a tow back to Dollands Moor - so might see that one depending which way it goes and when.

At least GBRf are still providing you the opportunity of seeing them once a week (ish).

Yes I do occasionally see the odd one being dragged. Had I known they were to become a rarity I might have made a bit more effort to film them when they were running (although they tended mainly to show up on night time workings). Like you say, it's a shame and a waste that they aren't being used to their full capabilities.

I wonder, if the modifications being made to the GBRf ones prove to be a success, whether knowledge gained from that process might lead in the longer term to similar work being done on more of them, for use on duties other than the sleeper.
 

TimboM

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Why can't they work on UK 25kv?

The "DB six" are no longer approved to run on UK 25kv. I'm not sure if they're technically able to (possibly?) but DB have decided all they want to use these remaining 92s for is to work the Tunnel and HS1 (and that's really because they have no other option - DB clearly don't like 92s and the cost of running them and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have the six remaining if they had other options to work the tunnel).

As a consequence of DB taking this decision, it was no longer worth them paying to keep the separate UK 25kv (and Third Rail) aspects of the locos in operational order - and specifically getting the periodic certifications from Network Rail (and on-going costs associated with these) to operate on such lines.

I know the Third Rail capability has been 'disabled' with shoes removed etc. in a lot of cases. Not so sure how 'disabled' the UK 25kv capability is as presumably uses quite a lot of the same components as when it's running on the Tunnel/HS1 wires, but one way or another they're not able to use them anymore. Ironically, the DB 92s are still based at Crewe as their home depot, so whenever they need an exam etc., they have to get towed all the way there and back from London. Pretty much sums up DB's treatment of their 92s - i.e. that they cannot even get back to their depot under their own power these days [and when they do get there, they can see many of their sister locos lined up rotting away...] :(

GBRf on the other hand have retained all three capabilities (Tunnel/UK 25kv/Third Rail) on at least some of their 92s (if not all of them).
 
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TimboM

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...it's a shame and a waste that they aren't being used to their full capabilities.

I wonder, if the modifications being made to the GBRf ones prove to be a success, whether knowledge gained from that process might lead in the longer term to similar work being done on more of them, for use on duties other than the sleeper.

The 92s problem was (is) they were probably too complex for their own good - and to use them to those full capabilities was very costly and beset by problems. Added to that, the two main things they were built for either never happened (Nightstar European sleeper) or ever in the volumes anticipated (cross-channel freight).

With those not materialising, for someone like DB, it's a case of the costs of running them on 'internal' UK freight vs 90s, 66s etc. - all of which are cheaper and more reliable.

To answer your question, I think where GBRf are concerned there's potential for more use of the 92s. As it stands, they're the only A/C traction option they have and also the only loco capable of hauling the new sleeper stock, so GBRf (and Brush) have had to sort them out.

Now they have some sort of 'formula' they're applying it to all 10 of the operational 92s they own (010/014/018/023/028/032/033/038/043/044). I understand six have been modified, one in progress (043) and three to go (032/038/044). These 10 are probably sufficient for current demand, roughly:

6 on Sleeper
2 on China Clay/Tunnel work (including Class 700 deliveries)
1 on Dagenham-Garston cars
1 'spare' (they're still 92s - there's always one needing some work!)

There's some talk of getting them back on some of the intermodals which are (mostly) under wires too in the longer term.

If GBRf were to win more business down the line they could use 92s on - and now they have a 'solution' - they might feasibly look to put back into service one or two more of the ones they have in store. Problem is most/all of these six have been sat outside to varying degrees for years and been parts donors to the ones that are working, so how many of them are viable or not is questionable. And logically each one further down the "queue of disrepair" becomes more and more costly to sort out, so comes a point fairly quickly it doesn't stack up. And at some stage, depending on what the work is, it's a better option to buy new rather than try and fix up an old loco which has had complex electronics rained on for a few years.

It's covered on this thread many posts ago, but as I understand it, 92020 and 92006 stored at Loughborough and the most likely (only?) candidates for getting operational again - although there's suggestions that at least 006 has some pretty bad corrosion.

92045/046 are sat in the Brush car park on blocks and no doubt liberated of many parts, so don't seem likely candidates for ever getting running again. And 021/040 are still over in Coquelles (Calais) where they've been sat (in the open I believe) for years - so who knows what state they're in!

As to whether DB would use the 'modifications' to get some of theirs going again - I really don't think so (see my response to InOban for a flavour of DB's approach to 92s). I think hell might just freeze over before they dug out any of their stored 92s (other than to send abroad).

The other option I've thought of is whether GBRf get to a point where they've got, say, the 11/12 back in service that they feasibly can, and they do want/need more - and some of DB's are in better nick than the remaining GBRf stored ones - would DB sell a couple to GBRf for them to do up? Again, I can't see this happening as DB seem to like to hang on to locos they have no use for and let them rust, rather than sell them to competitors to take business off them. Their stored 92s are all sat in the open too, so probably in no better condition either. That said, they've sold 60s and 67s to Colas, so who knows...

That would all be a long long way off though - for now, I think realistically we're looking at the 10 GBRf have in use - and if we're really lucky, one or two more. But that's it.
 
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BRX

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I've never quite got the seemingly widespread thing of storing potentially serviceable locos in the open. You'd think the cost of putting them under a roof somewhere would be tiny compared to the future cost of repairing them.
 

TimboM

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I've never quite got the seemingly widespread thing of storing potentially serviceable locos in the open. You'd think the cost of putting them under a roof somewhere would be tiny compared to the future cost of repairing them.

I think when you've got 75x 60s, 17x (ish) 92s several 90s etc etc. the costs of providing buildings that could house that amount of traction that are maintained, heated, lighted, secure, staffed etc. for years and years does mount up - particularly for locos that in the majority of cases are getting stored as there's no use for them for the foreseeable future.
 

TimboM

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As previously stated the Dagenham-Garston cars will produce a 92 when available. This week however it has been 66758.

I reckon after testing, if it needs it again, 92028 might turn up on 6L48 Garston to Dagenham soon.

Yes, been a 66 on the cars since 22nd May (just after 023 went in to Brush and they were a 92 short). Firstly 66742 did a few turns, then 758 since. Agree it will be back to 92s once 023 and 028 are back in full service.

Depending on what was wrong with 023 and how major its fix was, it might go straight back on the Sleepers after a quick test, but may have a run or two on the cars.

And as you say, Leo, for 92028 I'm pretty certain it will be first put on the cars as part of it's 'proving' before being let loose on more sensitive work such as the China Clays or Sleeper. Looking forwards to seeing it pulling a proper load!
 
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najaB

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...the costs of providing buildings that could house that amount of traction that are maintained, heated, lighted, secure, staffed etc. for years and years does mount up...
Given that it's a comparison to open storage, would the buildings really need to be heated, lighted, staffed and secured?
 

route101

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Interesting never new some 92s could run on third rail . The class 73 was only loco i knew that did , dont see it happening much .
 

InOban

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I would have thought that the damage results from lack of operation of the moving parts, rather than sitting in the open air. After all, when in use they are in the open!
 

BRX

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Interesting never new some 92s could run on third rail . The class 73 was only loco i knew that did , dont see it happening much .

When the tunnel was first built, there was no HS1. So the 92s (as well as the Eurostars) had to use the third rail to get between the tunnel and London.
 

BRX

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I would have thought that the damage results from lack of operation of the moving parts, rather than sitting in the open air. After all, when in use they are in the open!

As far as buildings are concerned, what can really cause deterioration is a combination of cold and damp. Unoccupied buildings start to have problems because small amounts of moisture ingress that would previously have been dried out by heating, before causing much harm, start to build up and over time can cause major damage.

I don't know how much that can be carried over to railway locos but I'd imagine that when in use and warm there is the same effect - water getting in through small leaks and so on gets dried out, whereas if parked up it doesn't.

So even unheated storage under cover would be better than out in the open, I'd have thought.
 

najaB

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So even unheated storage under cover would be better than out in the open, I'd have thought.
You often read stories about cars which have been found in barns after 50-plus years being in restorable condition so I think there's something to that idea.
 

gsnedders

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The other option I've thought of is whether GBRf get to a point where they've got, say, the 11/12 back in service that they feasibly can, and they do want/need more - and some of DB's are in better nick than the remaining GBRf stored ones - would DB sell a couple to GBRf for them to do up? Again, I can't see this happening as DB seem to like to hang on to locos they have no use for and let them rust, rather than sell them to competitors to take business off them. Their stored 92s are all sat in the open too, so probably in no better condition either. That said, they've sold 60s and 67s to Colas, so who knows...

I don't think DB are that unwilling to sell locomotives; they just want an unreasonable amount of money for them given the potential knock-on effects. The Class 92s, esp. if there's more tunnel work, could be worth an unusually high-price for GBRf. The cost of a very small number of new-build tunnel-certified locos would probably be high enough that an overpriced DB 92 could still be better value.
 

TimboM

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Given that it's a comparison to open storage, would the buildings really need to be heated, lighted, staffed and secured?

Probably not - but the structures would likely need building from scratch in the main (as I'm sure any shed-space at the likes of Toton and Crewe is already fully utilised).

So even unheated storage under cover would be better than out in the open, I'd have thought.

Yes, you'd think so. However, as InOban says, I think the real issue is them not being in regular use and getting maintained/exams/overhaul etc.

Unfortunately it's all a bit hypothetical now for most of the DB 92s (and 60s and some 90s...).
 

TimboM

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I don't think DB are that unwilling to sell locomotives; they just want an unreasonable amount of money for them given the potential knock-on effects. The Class 92s, esp. if there's more tunnel work, could be worth an unusually high-price for GBRf. The cost of a very small number of new-build tunnel-certified locos would probably be high enough that an overpriced DB 92 could still be better value.

I've seen it suggested that if more tunnel work picked up for DB, they might look at continental option (Krupps locos?) rather than re-enter any more 92s into service. From GBRf's perspective, there'll always be a point it's worth it (whether that's to "restore" one of their more dilapidated 92s, or buy one of DB's and restore that) - however there'd need to be quite a significant improvement in current demand for that to happen I think.

It would be nice to think there could be some mutual beneficial arrangement where DB are prepared to let a couple go for a reasonable price in return for GBRf/Brush letting providing info on the mods they've done to get them in better shape so they can get more of theirs working. Can't see that happening though!!

Incidentally, the other week DB were short on 92s as three of their six were at Crewe EMD at once and they ended up spot-hiring GBRf 92s (certainly 92032, possibly 92044 as well) to do their tunnel workings :lol::lol:
 
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gsnedders

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I've seen it suggested that if more tunnel work picked up for DB, they might look at continental option (Krupps locos?) rather than re-enter any more 92s into service.

I hadn't realised the 92s weren't certified to run into France until now, which means DB are already essentially treating them as locos to run from one side of the tunnel to the other and nothing on either side. As such, I guess there's no disadvantage to getting a continental gauge locomotive.

The Krupp locomotives are emergency-only diesel, right? I thought they weren't allowed through the tunnel ordinarily.

Prima and Vectron locomotives have both been tested through the tunnel, and Eurotunnel seem to be happy to certify them if anyone actually wants to use them, so presumably that may well be cheaper for Tunnel working than getting the old and technically complex 92s working.

From GBRf's perspective, there'll always be a point it's worth it (whether that's to "restore" one of their more dilapidated 92s, or buy one of DB's and restore that) - however there'd need to be quite a significant improvement in current demand for that to happen I think.

Well, depends what work they have; how wedded to the 92s are they, or could buying 88s or something else new make sense? Some of that will obviously depend on the traffic!
 

TimboM

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I hadn't realised the 92s weren't certified to run into France until now, which means DB are already essentially treating them as locos to run from one side of the tunnel to the other and nothing on either side. As such, I guess there's no disadvantage to getting a continental gauge locomotive.

The Krupp locomotives are emergency-only diesel, right? I thought they weren't allowed through the tunnel ordinarily.

Prima and Vectron locomotives have both been tested through the tunnel, and Eurotunnel seem to be happy to certify them if anyone actually wants to use them, so presumably that may well be cheaper for Tunnel working than getting the old and technically complex 92s working.

Think I was guessing at Krupp! I know they work test/engineering trains. But, yes, whatever other options there are currently are the route DB may go down IF tunnel traffic ever picked up.

And as you say, DB are now using 92s (and only have them set-up/certified) to shuttle trains through the tunnel and up and down HS1 and that is it.

Well, depends what work they have; how wedded to the 92s are they, or could buying 88s or something else new make sense? Some of that will obviously depend on the traffic!

Indeed. AFAIK, there are only two (types of) working they really have to have 92s on - the Sleeper (due to high ETS of the new stock - requires c.6 locos) and tunnel work (which currently they need c.2 locos for).

Anything other than that (Dagenham-Garston cars, intermodals, new 'internal' work) could feasibly be done by other locos (and already is - e.g. 66s); and in future as you say something along the lines of a new-build 88 or similar may become a better option.

Away from what the Sleeper and tunnel work brings, it'd be a case of what stacks up best between getting the assets they already own in working order (and keeping them that way) or buying new. One benefit of the 92s - is they were transferred to GBRf from their then parent company, Europorte - so they own them outright as far as I can tell; i.e. no leasing costs etc.

Of course, as sound business folk, they may approach it the other way round and go after tunnel work and (very) heavy freight under the wires - both niche markets (especially the latter) - but if they're the ones with the kit to do it then they have a competitive advantage.
 
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I've never quite got the seemingly widespread thing of storing potentially serviceable locos in the open. You'd think the cost of putting them under a roof somewhere would be tiny compared to the future cost of repairing them.

business rates for enclosed storage would be prohibitive ... one of the reasons that medium term empty industrial buildings are de roofed or falltened
 

59CosG95

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Prima and Vectron locomotives have both been tested through the tunnel, and Eurotunnel seem to be happy to certify them if anyone actually wants to use them, so presumably that may well be cheaper for Tunnel working than getting the old and technically complex 92s working.
Well, they aren't gonna be getting further into the UK unless most of the key freight arteries get bumped up to continental gauge! Primas and Vectrons are that much taller and wider than a 92, so if DB suddenly orders Vectrons to replace their 92s and 90s in one fell swoop, they'll need to either get a thinner UK version or wait for the WCML and other AC freight arteries to get a Continental gauge upgrade (which may never happen in our lifetimes).
 

jopsuk

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Before the 92s were delivered a small number of SNCF BB22000s were given Tunnel clearance to operate freight to Dollands Moor.
 

TimboM

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Well, they aren't gonna be getting further into the UK unless most of the key freight arteries get bumped up to continental gauge! Primas and Vectrons are that much taller and wider than a 92, so if DB suddenly orders Vectrons to replace their 92s and 90s in one fell swoop, they'll need to either get a thinner UK version or wait for the WCML and other AC freight arteries to get a Continental gauge upgrade (which may never happen in our lifetimes).

Valid point, however DB now only use the 92s to work freight through the tunnel and up HS1 (which is continental gauge). Other (UK gauge) locos already have to take the freight forward from Dollands Moor/Ripple Lane.

Question is at what point do DB give up on keeping a mini-fleet of six 92s going (and all the hassle they no doubt cause!) and buy a European option which, yes, would be restricted on the UK side (but then the DB 92s are now), but unlike 92s could work further into the continent.

I think at the moment cross-channel freight is still limited and little sign of growth, so probably not worth new kit, but if for some reason it picked up I could see DB going for new "euro" locos (rather than digging more of their 92s out of storage).

...but then IF there was an increase in cross-channel freight they may be undercut on price by GBRf using their fixed-up 92s ;)
 
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cl19

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Any update on 92023 and 92028 today? I noticed something ran to Rugby and back but the Crewe to Carnforth section of the path was cancelled.

Also a Crewe - Carlisle path gone in for tomorrow
 

TimboM

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Any update on 92023 and 92028 today? I noticed something ran to Rugby and back but the Crewe to Carnforth section of the path was cancelled.

Also a Crewe - Carlisle path gone in for tomorrow

They both went to Rugby, and then I believe both back to Crewe.

I suspect the Crewe-Carlisle-Crewe path that's gone in for tomorrow is the one they'll use for further testing (and not the Crewe-Rugby-Carnforth-Crewe one that was already in).

This is similar to the first week of 028's testing post its long stay in Loughborough - the Rugby/Carnforth paths were in everyday, but never used (in full). Instead they mostly went to Carlisle and back (as well as Stafford and back/Warrington and back on the first day and a return trip to Willesden to drop off a F/Liner 90).

86401 Mons Meg, which is currently stabled in Crewe, is also due to go north to Glasgow/Polmadie tomorrow. Can't see any additional paths in for this, so I'm wondering if it will catch a lift to Carlisle and then be collected later from there?
 
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TimboM

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In that order, 28 leading?

Yes - that order. 86401 will be detached at Carlisle for its onward journey to Polmadie (see RTT link below), with 92023 then leading the 92s back to Crewe so it gets its "share" of the test run.

Brief video of the consist here: https://youtu.be/h8_qk8GZE2w

Few stills of the locos here:
https://flic.kr/p/VKB1PZ
https://flic.kr/p/VuUd8J
https://flic.kr/p/VKB1TX

This is almost certainly the path for 86401 to continue on to Polmadie - light engine I expect - clue is in the headcode ;)

0Z86 13:16 Carlisle to Polmadie http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O04421/2017/06/13/advanced
 
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