Caledonian Sleeper Class 92's

[cl19]

Looks like a move from Crewe to Loughborough is in progress - 92043 perhaps??

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O79018/2017/03/07/advanced

 

[TimboM]

...92043 also heading to Loughborough Brush as I type for its overhaul/mods: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O79018/2017/03/07/advanced

Vaguely interesting that it went there along with 92010 and the 2x20s at start of Feb, stayed about an hour then went up to Crewe where it's stayed for 5 weeks (doing not a lot as far as I can see) before heading back. Was it a case of "no room at the inn" when it turned up? And/or where it's easiest/cheapest for GBRf to "park" it up. Wondering why it wasn't just left at Loughborough, or at least somewhere nearer than Crewe...?

 

[TimboM]

Looks like a move from Crewe to Loughborough is in progress - 92043 perhaps??

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O79018/2017/03/07/advanced

Just posted the same ...yes, this is 92043 going in for its mods.

66712 giving it the tow down there it would appear.

 

[TimboM]

From what I can gather, Friday night's under-the-wires Sleepers were 100% Class 92 hauled - must have been a long time since that happened?!

92010 on Edinburgh portion
92014 Euston-Glasgow (Lowlander)
92018 Euston-Edinburgh (Highlander)
92033 and 92038 on the Southbound services.

90044 is on the Northbound highlander tonight, so won't be another full-house.

92023 has made a rare foray to Tonbridge Yard, where it is with 73961. Apparently they're both heading into Brush this week - 023's already had two spells in, so not sure if it needs more tweaks? Or the first one to get new couplings etc for the new Mk5s?

 

[Roast Veg]

I assume 92023 didn't make use of its shoes to get to TON, and was just dragged? I know the yard is unelectrified, but it's rare to see any working off the 3rd rail any more.

 

[TimboM]

I assume 92023 didn't make use of its shoes to get to TON, and was just dragged? I know the yard is unelectrified, but it's rare to see any working off the 3rd rail any more.

I'm c.95% sure 92023 went to from Willesden to Tonbridge under its own 'steam' (or on its own shoes) and was only dragged the final part from the station into the yard by 73961.

IIRC, GBRf's 92s are still permitted to use the 3rd rail, whereas I think the DB ones are not...?


Incidentally, 92023 + 73961 are now on their way to Wabtec/Brush Loughborough:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R03111/2017/03/13/advanced

 

[59CosG95]

IIRC, GBRf's 92s are still permitted to use the 3rd rail, whereas I think the DB ones are not...?

Perhaps the ones fitted for HS1 are barred from the 3rd rail; 011, 019 and 036 aren't equipped for HS1 running, so may be able to run on the juice.

 

[TimboM]

Perhaps the ones fitted for HS1 are barred from the 3rd rail; 011, 019 and 036 aren't equipped for HS1 running, so may be able to run on the juice.

Not sure... I've just got a vague recollection from somewhere (but can't lay my finger on it) that the DB ones (or most of them) aren't permitted to use the third rail anymore. I've got a feeling it was more to do with paperwork / cost than anything else, but maybe completely wrong.

I'm sure someone will know...?

 

[leomartin125]

Not sure... I've just got a vague recollection from somewhere (but can't lay my finger on it) that the DB ones (or most of them) aren't permitted to use the third rail anymore. I've got a feeling it was more to do with paperwork / cost than anything else, but maybe completely wrong.

I'm sure someone will know...?

When I spoke to the GBRf driver who let me in the cab of 92014 at Euston, he stated that all of GBRf's acquired 92's have the 3rd rail disabled, simply because NR do not allow the 92's to operate using it anymore. If a 92 came up for a swap from Dollands Moor to Willesden TMD, it would have to be dragged, most likely by a GBRf shed.

That also went for DB too, who solely operate their 92's now on HS1, with a small amount operating the Dollands Moor - Ripple Lane night freight runs. None of this is conducted under DC, as I also believe the DC shoe gear on their 92's are disabled too.

92023 would almost certainly have to have been dragged. It's been many years since a 92 was last seen under DC power.

 

[fgwrich]

When I spoke to the GBRf driver who let me in the cab of 92014 at Euston, he stated that all of GBRf's acquired 92's have the 3rd rail disabled, simply because NR do not allow the 92's to operate using it anymore. If a 92 came up for a swap from Dollands Moor to Willesden TMD, it would have to be dragged, most likely by a GBRf shed.

That also went for DB too, who solely operate their 92's now on HS1, with a small amount operating the Dollands Moor - Ripple Lane night freight runs. None of this is conducted under DC, as I also believe the DC shoe gear on their 92's are disabled too.

92023 would almost certainly have to have been dragged. It's been many years since a 92 was last seen under DC power.

Many years as in Saturday? As these two are certainly GB locos, and running on the Juice!

https://youtu.be/5Ob-V3vC3tI

 

[TimboM]

Many years as in Saturday? As these two are certainly GB locos, and running on the Juice!

https://youtu.be/5Ob-V3vC3tI

Either that or 92044 has been secretly converted into one of those rebuilt bi-mode locos folk on here like to imagine...

 

[GrimShady]

Have some of the 92s been sold abroad?

 

[TimboM]

Have some of the 92s been sold abroad?

I don't believe they've been sold as such, but a fair number of DB's ones have been exported and are now used by DB's operations in Romania and Bulgaria.

DB Romania now has 92001, 002, 005, 012, 024 and 039
DB Bulgaria now has 92025, 027, 030 and 034

I believe 92003 plus two others (92022 and 92026 IIRC) are heading off to Bulgaria too soon, if not already - suggestions are at least one of these (022?) is now largely a shell and going over to act as spares however.

(As per previous page, two of GBRf's ex-Europorte 92s 92021 and 92040 are in long-term storage in Coquelles, so technically in Europe/abroad from a physical perspective too, but owned by GBRf who presumably will only repatriate them if the cost of getting them up and running again is ever justified by demand.)

 

[Mordac]

I don't believe they've been sold as such, but a fair number of DB's ones are now used by DB's operations in Europe - mostly Eastern European countries e.g. Romania and Bulgaria.

DB Romania now has 92001, 002, 005, 012, 024 and 039
DB Bulgaria now has 92025, 027, 030 and 034

I believe 92003 plus two others (92022 and 92026 I think - but not 100% sure) have also recently headed out there (or are departing soon) - suggestions are at least one of these is largely a shell and going over to act as spares however.

WNXX has them all three still stored at Dollands Moor, but it might just not have been updated yet.

 

[TimboM]

WNXX has them all three still stored at Dollands Moor, but it might just not have been updated yet.

Yes - I think they may still be there (just) - showing as being in the Cripple Sidings at Dollands Moor at the weekend at least. They've been moved to the WGEE pool (which is the Eastern Europe export pool) and were certainly at Dollands Moor in late January with their export delayed only by paperwork apparently (see below).

I'm assuming this is OK to link here - a photo plus some interesting info about these 3 locos courtesy of Adrian Nicholls, plus others in the comments section:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034...gUt-SdauqU-9Cka8S-R2NwCg-RXHpRD-Ro6Smc-ryNeRo

 

[CosherB]

When I spoke to the GBRf driver who let me in the cab of 92014 at Euston, he stated that all of GBRf's acquired 92's have the 3rd rail disabled, simply because NR do not allow the 92's to operate using it anymore. If a 92 came up for a swap from Dollands Moor to Willesden TMD, it would have to be dragged, most likely by a GBRf shed.

That also went for DB too, who solely operate their 92's now on HS1, with a small amount operating the Dollands Moor - Ripple Lane night freight runs. None of this is conducted under DC, as I also believe the DC shoe gear on their 92's are disabled too.

92023 would almost certainly have to have been dragged. It's been many years since a 92 was last seen under DC power.

Careful .... you'll be getting a reputation for posting guff like that on here soon!

 

[TimboM]

When I spoke to the GBRf driver who let me in the cab of 92014 at Euston, he stated that all of GBRf's acquired 92's have the 3rd rail disabled, simply because NR do not allow the 92's to operate using it anymore. If a 92 came up for a swap from Dollands Moor to Willesden TMD, it would have to be dragged, most likely by a GBRf shed.

That also went for DB too, who solely operate their 92's now on HS1, with a small amount operating the Dollands Moor - Ripple Lane night freight runs. None of this is conducted under DC, as I also believe the DC shoe gear on their 92's are disabled too.

92023 would almost certainly have to have been dragged. It's been many years since a 92 was last seen under DC power.

Bit more info on this that I've found... there may be some confusion between the GBRf and DB 92s here. DB only have 6 operational 92s remaining in the UK and they work exclusively through the tunnel and on HS1. At least 5 of the 6 have had the shoes isolated and some (e.g. 92036) have had them removed completely - none are permitted to use the 3rd rail. It's not quite that Network Rail won't allow them to full-stop, but there needs to be some recertification of the ICMU (Interference Current Monitor Unit) which DB don't have the bit of kit to do [would need to loan it of a FOC who does have it...] and it does not stack up for them financially/operationally to sort out. Hence, their UK 92s are now only operated on the Eurotunnel 25kv as far as I'm aware and restricted as above. i.e. it's an admin/operational/cost decision rather than a technical one.

Not entirely sure if ALL of GBRf's serviceable 92s can run on the 3rd rail, however I believe the Antwerp-Irvine china clay "silver bullet" service they've recently won from DB runs over the 3rd rail in parts and has been hauled recently by 92032 or 92044 (i.e. the two in the video from Saturday on the 3rd rail). There's also a fairly recent (Sept 16) YouTube video of 92038 on the 3rd rail at Denmark Hill, plus 92023 it appears can use it too based on the move to Tonbridge. So would appear at least four of the GBRf 92s are able to run on 3rd rail and no doubt others in the fleet will too to ensure operational flexibility. Putting 2+2 together, I'm assuming GBRf do have the special bit of kit for the ICMU recertification thing...

 

[fgwrich]

Bit more info on this that I've found... there may be some confusion between the GBRf and DB 92s here. DB only have 6 operational 92s remaining in the UK and they work exclusively through the tunnel and on HS1. At least 5 of the 6 have had the shoes isolated and some (e.g. 92036) have had them removed completely - none are permitted to use the 3rd rail. It's not quite that Network Rail won't allow them to full-stop, but there needs to be some recertification of the ICMU (Interference Current Monitor Unit) which DB don't have the bit of kit to do [would need to loan it of a FOC who does have it...] and it does not stack up for them financially/operationally to sort out. Hence, their UK 92s are now only operated on the Eurotunnel 25kv as far as I'm aware and restricted as above. i.e. it's an admin/operational/cost decision rather than a technical one.

Not entirely sure if ALL of GBRf's serviceable 92s can run on the 3rd rail, however I believe the Antwerp-Irvine china clay "silver bullet" service they've recently won from DB runs over the 3rd rail in parts and has been hauled recently by 92032 or 92044 (i.e. the two in the video from Saturday on the 3rd rail). There's also a fairly recent (Sept 16) YouTube video of 92038 on the 3rd rail at Denmark Hill, plus 92023 it appears can use it too based on the move to Tonbridge. So would appear at least four of the GBRf 92s are able to run on 3rd rail and no doubt others in the fleet will too to ensure operational flexibility. Putting 2+2 together, I'm assuming GBRf do have the special bit of kit for the ICMU recertification thing...

I'd have thought BRUSH would have held the equipment given the modifications to GBs 92s, unless the equipment was held over by Eurotunnel and given to GBRf I wonder?

It does seem a bit limiting by DB if the equipment is held by GB, but as they won't be Sen working with a large competitor chose not to. It's not as if DB doesn't have an aversion to working with other FOCs - otherwise they wouldn't be maintaining Colas's 60s and 67s from time to time.

 

[TimboM]

I'd have thought BRUSH would have held the equipment given the modifications to GBs 92s, unless the equipment was held over by Eurotunnel and given to GBRf I wonder?

It does seem a bit limiting by DB if the equipment is held by GB, but as they won't be Sen working with a large competitor chose not to. It's not as if DB doesn't have an aversion to working with other FOCs - otherwise they wouldn't be maintaining Colas's 60s and 67s from time to time.

Good point that Brush may well have it. Bottom line is DB have identified the 92s as too costly to run compared to other options (e.g. 66s, 2x90s etc) so they're only using them as little as possible where there is currently no alternative (tunnel + HS1). It therefore follows they're going to spend the minimum they can on them so they're able to do that specific job and no more. So whether Brush and/or GBRf have the kit, it's still a cost to do whatever testing/admin is required that DB aren't going to spend as they have no need as it stands for their 92s to run on the third rail.

I don't think the DB ones can even run on the "normal" U.K. 25kv anymore - 92015 was certainly dragged to Crewe and back for the "China direct freight train" branding to be added.

GBRf on the other hand have no other electric option so it stacks up for them to have their 92s operable across the network.

 

[Roast Veg]

GBRf on the other hand have no other electric option so it stacks up for them to have their 92s operable across the network.

Unless you count 86 or 87 hires, then yes.

 

[leomartin125]

Bit more info on this that I've found... there may be some confusion between the GBRf and DB 92s here. DB only have 6 operational 92s remaining in the UK and they work exclusively through the tunnel and on HS1. At least 5 of the 6 have had the shoes isolated and some (e.g. 92036) have had them removed completely - none are permitted to use the 3rd rail. It's not quite that Network Rail won't allow them to full-stop, but there needs to be some recertification of the ICMU (Interference Current Monitor Unit) which DB don't have the bit of kit to do [would need to loan it of a FOC who does have it...] and it does not stack up for them financially/operationally to sort out. Hence, their UK 92s are now only operated on the Eurotunnel 25kv as far as I'm aware and restricted as above. i.e. it's an admin/operational/cost decision rather than a technical one.

Not entirely sure if ALL of GBRf's serviceable 92s can run on the 3rd rail, however I believe the Antwerp-Irvine china clay "silver bullet" service they've recently won from DB runs over the 3rd rail in parts and has been hauled recently by 92032 or 92044 (i.e. the two in the video from Saturday on the 3rd rail). There's also a fairly recent (Sept 16) YouTube video of 92038 on the 3rd rail at Denmark Hill, plus 92023 it appears can use it too based on the move to Tonbridge. So would appear at least four of the GBRf 92s are able to run on 3rd rail and no doubt others in the fleet will too to ensure operational flexibility. Putting 2+2 together, I'm assuming GBRf do have the special bit of kit for the ICMU recertification thing...

Well I never... GBRf seemed to actually have some 92's running using their shoe gear. Isolated my arse. Well I'm never trusting a GBRf driver again then.

 

[43096]

I don't think the DB ones can even run on the "normal" U.K. 25kv anymore - 92015 was certainly dragged to Crewe and back for the "China direct freight train" branding to be added.

Technically can't run, or can't because crew knowledge of them has lapsed?

 

[TimboM]

Technically can't run, or can't because crew knowledge of them has lapsed?

It's second hand info to a degree, but from what I read it suggested it's been disabled in some way so they can now only run on the European / tunnel 25kv. Same logic as the third rail I guess in that if you're not using it there's no point paying to maintain it / certify it etc.

I would expect a lot of the DB drivers can drive multiple loco types (e.g. 90s and 92s) so you'd expect they'd have people with the route knowledge who could drive them away from tunnel/HS1 and North of Wembley if they were able to / "allowed" by DB to go there. Indeed it was a 90 that dragged 92015 to Crewe (66 on way back).

I'm not an expert on driver signing, though - e.g. are they signed for routes and loco types independently, or is it for locos on specific routes combined? If the latter, logically you'd expect DB to let knowledge lapse on routes/locos they're not planning to operate anymore.

 

[43096]

Well I never... GBRf seemed to actually have some 92's running using their shoe gear. Isolated my arse. Well I'm never trusting a GBRf driver again then.

Have you considered that they were just winding you up to see whether you would post it on a web forum?

 

[TimboM]

Another GBRf 92 full-house on the five Sleeper turns under the wires last night - including a guest appearance by 92032 on 1S26 Euston-Glasgow

 

[leomartin125]

Have you considered that they were just winding you up to see whether you would post it on a web forum?

No, I think I was too 'in the moment' to care, it has been my ambition for many years to cab a 92, and seeing as they are operated by GBRf, the same operator who seem to be overly strict on the IEP test runs and testing about letting people in the cabs, even just for a few seconds (and that includes railway staff!), I was extremely suprised to be allowed to sit in the drivers seat. I didn't even work for the railway at that time either!

 

[TimboM]

No, I think I was too 'in the moment' to care, it has been my ambition for many years to cab a 92, and seeing as they are operated by GBRf, the same operator who seem to be overly strict on the IEP test runs and testing about letting people in the cabs, even just for a few seconds (and that includes railway staff!), I was extremely suprised to be allowed to sit in the drivers seat. I didn't even work for the railway at that time either!

I suspect it was genuinely offered piece of info (even if it was potentially referring to DB's 92s not GBRf's). That said, I've seen no evidence that 92014 specifically has been anywhere near the 3rd rail in recent times (others may have evidence), so there's a possibility that what he said was true for 92014 if not others in the GBRf fleet...

 

[leomartin125]

I suspect it was genuinely offered piece of info (even if it was potentially referring to DB's 92s not GBRf's). That said, I've seen no evidence that 92014 specifically has been anywhere near the 3rd rail in recent times (others may have evidence), so there's a possibility that what he said was true for 92014 if not others in the GBRf fleet...

Yeah he did mention that 92014 has had it's shoe gear disabled, and that GBRf were looking into the feasability of running other 92's on the 3rd rail at the time but nothing formally had occured at that point. I took this with a pinch of salt, but now I understand that this may have become a reality as C/S 92's have been seen on the 3rd rail recently too.

 

[43096]

This thread seems to be long on rumour and supposition and short of hard facts about 92s on 3rd rail, both of GBRf and DB Cargo varieties.

Anyone got any facts, or are we sticking with the "post-truth"?

 

[87015]

I'm fairly sure the DB HS1 ones have some mod/isolation which means they cannot work north of Dollands Moor off HS1.
GB ones "work" except their weekly freight train with one is such a shambles it is supposed to be being mandated to not be a 92 by NR after three or four consecutive failures and resultant chaos of morning peaks. Fairly sure a CS liveried one was involved at least once.