Caledonian sleeper and privatisation

[scottishchris]

Why is it that the caledonian sleeper was deemed to be a Scotrail service when privatisation took place? Would the service not have been more in line with that of VWC?

 

[EltonRoad]

I'm sure someone will answer in more detail but I think the services didn't fit in with Virgin's planned service model. And probably something to do with maintenance at Inverness as well.

 

[Oliver]

The primary beneficiaries are people living (and businesses based) in Scotland, particularly those in places like Fort William. Therefore, given that it was always going to need a subsidy it makes more sense for it to be part of Scotrail.

 

[Greenback]

It would have adversely affected the attractiveness of the WCML if the sleepers had been part of it. The bottom line, always the bottom line!

 

[NightatLaira]

How much of a loss is the Caledonian Sleeper running at currently? I was under the impression that it was now close to breaking even again?

 

[rail-britain]

Why is it that the caledonian sleeper was deemed to be a Scotrail service when privatisation took place? Would the service not have been more in line with that of VWC?

Discussed before, but here goes
Prior to the privitisation process the Caledonian sleeper was part of InterCity West Coast
The rolling stock was operated by InterCity West Coast
The on-board staff were employed by ICOBS (InterCity On Board Services)
All other staff (drivers, conductors) were then from other divisions (such as Drivers from ScotRail or InterCity West Coast, Conducters from ScotRail and Senior Conducters from InterCity East Coast Or InterCity West Coast)

During early discussions with prospective franchise operators for West Coast they all made it clear they would not bid (or submit lower bids) if the sleepers were included
As a result the sleeper was transferred to ScotRail

As above, it was known the sleeper was loss-making (at the time) and had been cut back several times
It was also felt the sleeper could be better marketed by an operator of the ScotRail franchise, rather than the West Coast (concentrating solely on Euston)

The sleeper does financially break even, but not on the balance sheet however this has improved since privitisation
As the rolling stock needs to be replaced during the next franchise this will impact the balance sheet again, pushing the operation back into a loss again

The main issue is the sleeper only operates in one direction every 24 hours
Unlike a traditional revenue earning train which can typically operate up to 18 hours per day

 

[scottishchris]

makes sense and thanks for all your answers!

 

[Zoe]

If the South West to Scotland sleepers had survived privatization would they also be Scotrail operated? Would have thought GWT (later FGW) may well have operated to GW part of the route with Scotrail crew taking over later.

 

[NightatLaira]

I think the best hope for the CS could be Transport Scotland stepping in and giving the new operator an interest-free loan for new stock, it probably won't happen, but you never know...

As for the South West sleepers, I'm not sure on their viability, I think a lot would depend on Visit Cornwall - but I have often thought the market could be there for a South Wales to Scotland central belt sleeper service - a revival of 'The Principality' but by night - that could be possible, especially with the WAG's fondness for bizarre train services.

 

[Bon Accord]

If memory serves the SW sleepers were heavily used by RN personnel moving between Plymouth and Rosyth, hence when Rosyth finished as an active naval base it lost a huge chunk of custom.
When did they finally finish, was it as late as 95?
As I remember the 'up' service was known as "The Night Westcountryman", but I can't recall the down working.

 

[jon0844]

As I remember the 'up' service was known as "The Night Westcountryman", but I can't recall the down working.

The Day Easttownlady?

 

[simonm]

If memory serves the SW sleepers were heavily used by RN personnel moving between Plymouth and Rosyth, hence when Rosyth finished as an active naval base it lost a huge chunk of custom.
When did they finally finish, was it as late as 95?
As I remember the 'up' service was known as "The Night Westcountryman", but I can't recall the down working.

I think the other one was "The Night Scot"

 

[mr williams]

If memory serves the SW sleepers were heavily used by RN personnel moving between Plymouth and Rosyth, hence when Rosyth finished as an active naval base it lost a huge chunk of custom.
When did they finally finish, was it as late as 95?

It was certainly still going in 93/94 as I'd see the northbound at Bristol Parkway whilst waiting for my train to Cardiff. The memory fades over the years, but there was certainly a 1st class lounge/buffet carriage (which never had more than three or four people in it). Was there standard class seating or was it sleeper only?

Does anybody remember there was great fanfare over a new London-Scotland overnight service which wasn't a sleeper, just an ordinary seating train but with 1st class, buffet and hot food? Can't for the life of me remember when exactly it was, though - possibly the mid-80s under BR?

IIRC the first thing they had to do was ban alcohol ("in the interests of the majority"). Whilst it was popular with students and back-packers the more upmarket/business audience they were hoping for just never materialised, and although there were no low-cost airlines in those days it didn't survive very long and was quietly dropped.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have often thought the market could be there for a South Wales to Scotland central belt sleeper service - a revival of 'The Principality' but by night - that could be possible, especially with the WAG's fondness for bizarre train services.

AARRGGHH!!!! DON'T GIVE THEM IDEAS!!!!! hock:hock:hock:hock:hock:hock:hock:

 

[Bon Accord]

Does anybody remember there was great fanfare over a new London-Scotland overnight service which wasn't a sleeper, just an ordinary seating train but with 1st class, buffet and hot food? Can't for the life of me remember when exactly it was, though - possibly the mid-80s under BR?

The Starlight Express? Or was that earlier?

(Yes it was a Lloyd-Webber musical too!)

 

[jon0844]

Thanks to the low cost airlines and the tunnel, I wonder if a night train that ran at normal speed would perhaps be more popular now? Especially given the increase in rail usage in general and the 24 hour world we live in.

Just because it failed in the 80s is not a good indication of what might happen now.

 

[Oliver]

Here's some data from 1995 for the West Highland (i.e. Fort William) sleeper. http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1995/feb/28/west-highland-sleeper-service The £3m subsidy worked out at £540 per passenger. It may well be doing better now, mainly thanks to online sales, etc.

 

[rail-britain]

Was there standard class seating or was it sleeper only?

The Glasgow - Plymouth sleeper was sleepers and Lounge car only, however it did not travel through Cardiff
I don't remember any Scotland - Cardiff sleeper during the late 1980s and definitely not during the 1990s

Does anybody remember there was great fanfare over a new London-Scotland overnight service which wasn't a sleeper, just an ordinary seating train but with 1st class, buffet and hot food? Can't for the life of me remember when exactly it was, though - possibly the mid-80s under BR?

InterCity East Coast launched an overnight service when the IC225 project was completed
This was basically a positioning move for one set plus providing additional capacity (as the seats on sleepers were about to be withdrawn)
Departing Edinburgh at about 22:00 and arriving into Kings Cross at about 06:00
It made many stops, at Newcastle, York and Doncaster each stop was at least 30 minutes
Sadly it only ran for one summer

 

[Clip]

InterCity East Coast launched an overnight service when the IC225 project was completed
This was basically a positioning move for one set plus providing additional capacity (as the seats on sleepers were about to be withdrawn)
Departing Edinburgh at about 22:00 and arriving into Kings Cross at about 06:00
It made many stops, at Newcastle, York and Doncaster each stop was at least 30 minutes
Sadly it only ran for one summer

Shame that really. Would be good to have something like that again really

 

[jon0844]

30 minute stops would kill it if they tried it again. You'd need to run it like a service in the day, or else you'd take the sleeper or travel at another time. Who wants to be on a train for eight hours in a normal seat?

 

[tbtc]

The £3m subsidy worked out at £540 per passenger

Woah!

That makes Northern Rail look relatively profitable...

 

[Clip]

30 minute stops would kill it if they tried it again. You'd need to run it like a service in the day, or else you'd take the sleeper or travel at another time. Who wants to be on a train for eight hours in a normal seat?

If it done Newcastle - York - Doncaster - KX Id be more then happy for it - some people would enjoy the fag break

The seats arent that bad to sleep in really - Ive done it most of the way to Glasgow

 

[jon0844]

I could possibly handle a 10 minute wait but no more, or certainly not more than once. 10 mins would be enough for a fag break though.

Changing just this shaves off about an hour straight away!

 

[Greenback]

Passengers would be less time sensitive on overnight trains, I would imagine. Provided that they arrvied early enough for any ondward conenctions by road, rail, ship or air!

 

[ainsworth74]

Another thing to consider is that the coach from Edinburgh to London takes about 8 hours (similar to this train) and I would rather spend 8 hours on a train than a coach (and I suspect many others would as well). If you priced it competitively at say £30-40 for a single (valid this train only) and advertise it heavily it could be quite popular.

Of course market research would be a good idea before taking an idea like this forward because otherwise it's just guess work really.

 

[tbtc]

Passengers would be less time sensitive on overnight trains, I would imagine. Provided that they arrvied early enough for any ondward conenctions by road, rail, ship or air!

Another thing to consider is that the coach from Edinburgh to London takes about 8 hours (similar to this train) and I would rather spend 8 hours on a train than a coach (and I suspect many others would as well). If you priced it competitively at say £30-40 for a single (valid this train only) and advertise it heavily it could be quite popular.

Of course market research would be a good idea before taking an idea like this forward because otherwise it's just guess work really.

I think that there's scope for such a service, in theory. Running it would allow regular daytime stock to be used, meaning you wouldn't need to keep specialist trains for a handful of journeys a week.

The question is, if you are running a trip from London to Edinburgh that takes five hours, when would the best times be?

 

[Greenback]

I don't see much point in arriving in Edinburgh earlier than 0530-0600. This would mean a London departure at 0030-0100, which would allow for quite a late departure from other parts of the London area, and the South East in general.

In the other direction, an earlier arrival might be better, not just to allow time to get to airports or St Pancras, but also to allow an earlier pick up from places liek Newcastle.