Calder Valley DMUs

[willbaforceday]

Does anyone know the Allocations of DMUs on the Calder Valley line (Leeds-Manchester Victoria). I always seem to end up with a noisy old 158. I do anything I can not to get on the 158s as I hate them more than any other rolling stock on the rail network. I seem to remember that Northern suddenly put a load of them on all at once?
And anyone heard what the new DMUs are going to be like yet?

 

[thejuggler]

As a regular user between Leeds and Bradford, the 158 is usual for the Leeds-Man Vic trip. Unfortunately the 158 is the best of the bad bunch of stock on this line - Pacers, 150s and 155s are far from superior and certainly aren't quieter!

Three unit sets are often two 158s and a 155.

I remember when the 158s were new and they were a revelation. Its a sad state that the stock they were brought in to replace are still running and the 155s are only a recent introduction.

 

[Iskra]

Wow. What a strange post. Have you tried the other rolling stock on these routes? 158's are by far the best you can hope for!

 

[northwichcat]

And anyone heard what the new DMUs are going to be like yet?

We don't yet know exactly which manufacturer will produce them but they will be in 2 and 3 car formations, have 2+2 seating, tables, air conditioning and the requirements for accessibility like a customer information system, an accessible toilet etc.

There will be 4tph between Bradford and Victoria by December 2019 - a Chester service, an Airport service, a Liverpool service and a Southport service. All bar the Southport service are to get some of the new trains. The Southport service will likely get refurbished Sprinters or/and 170s.

 

[lejog]

Does anyone know the Allocations of DMUs on the Calder Valley line (Leeds-Manchester Victoria). I always seem to end up with a noisy old 158. I do anything I can not to get on the 158s as I hate them more than any other rolling stock on the rail network. I seem to remember that Northern suddenly put a load of them on all at once?
And anyone heard what the new DMUs are going to be like yet?

I agree with Iskra, I go out of my way to catch 158s on this line, they may badly need a refurbishment, but they are far more comfortable and provide a superior ride to any of the other stock on this line.

The Blackpool-York service is almost invariably run by 158s, often 3 car. The Leeds to Victoria services are usually 158s or 155s. The diagrams were changed in May 2014 so the Brighouse stoppers share diagrams with Bradford services, the Pacers that often used to run this service are now uncommon. Off peak, there are occasionally 150s and far less often Pacers. However, during the rush hours strengthening of the 158/155s with Pacers or 150s is the norm.

The Leeds-Bradford-Huddersfield service is often a Pacer, but can be anything up to 150/155/158, The Burnley service seems to be run from the Manchester side. so sees Pacers, 150s and 156s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There will be 4tph between Bradford and Victoria by December 2019 - a Chester service, an Airport service, a Liverpool service and a Southport service. All bar the Southport service are to get some of the new trains. The Southport service will likely get refurbished Sprinters or/and 170s.

While the interactive maps for the new franchise certainly don't define Calder Valley services exactly the text of the Bradford to Liverpool and Manchester Airport map says:

Additional services will be introduced between Bradford and Manchester, providing 3 trains per hour for most of the day, compared with 2 today

Yes there will be 4tph between Victoria and Hebden Bridge, but the maps for the services from both Chester and Southport show some services being routed via Dewsbury.

 

[northwichcat]

While the interactive maps for the new franchise certainly don't define Calder Valley services exactly the text of the Bradford to Liverpool and Manchester Airport map says:

Yes there will be 4tph between Victoria and Hebden Bridge, but the maps for the services from both Chester and Southport show some services being routed via Dewsbury.

I forgot one of the existing Calder Vale services is routed via Dewsbury. I imagine the dotted lines on the maps mean DfT aren't certain which service will be routed via Bradford and which one will go via Dewsbury.

There will, however, be an additional Halifax-Bradford-Leeds service every hour (not from Manchester.)

 

[dk1]

Wow. What a strange post. Have you tried the other rolling stock on these routes? 158's are by far the best you can hope for!

Stole my thunder

 

[willbaforceday]

I dislike the 158s for a number of reasons. The air con is terrible. Never warm enough when its cold outside, and never cold enough when its hot outside. Also going through a long tunnel leaks the diesel fumes in to the carriage through the Air con.
Also the ridiculously noisy fans on them. I got a sound level app on my phone and the fans on one of them was reading louder than the engine on a 155 climbing out of Bradford. Atleast engine noise can stop. The fans never slow down!
Also the state of the interior too leaves a lot to be desired. Carpets sticky with dirt too!
I'd rather get on a Pacer than a 158 anyday!

 

[ryan125hst]

I dislike the 158s for a number of reasons. The air con is terrible. Never warm enough when its cold outside, and never cold enough when its hot outside. Also going through a long tunnel leaks the diesel fumes in to the carriage through the Air con.
Also the ridiculously noisy fans on them. I got a sound level app on my phone and the fans on one of them was reading louder than the engine on a 155 climbing out of Bradford. Atleast engine noise can stop. The fans never slow down!
Also the state of the interior too leaves a lot to be desired. Carpets sticky with dirt too!
I'd rather get on a Pacer than a 158 anyday!

Then can you please send all the Class 158's over to the Sheffield to Lincoln line which has to put up with Pacers most of the time. The only respite from them we get is the 07:01 Retford to Sheffield on Mondays to Saturdays, and a few services on a Sunday. In fact, last year when I was returning home from uni at weekends more frequently than I am this year, I will always catch the 17:51 back to Sheffield as it was pretty much guaranteed to be a 158!

Other than the services above, and the odd 153 working during the quieter period in the middle of the day, it's almost exclusively 142's and 144's. A Class 150 makes an appearance occasionally, but it's rare. The 16:44 off Sheffield is normally a two car Pacer and full and standing, so a 158 would see a capacity increase of 40%-50% I believe?

So if you want to send them down here, you're more than welcome

 

[Bungle965]

I dislike the 158s for a number of reasons. The air con is terrible. Never warm enough when its cold outside, and never cold enough when its hot outside. Also going through a long tunnel leaks the diesel fumes in to the carriage through the Air con.
Also the ridiculously noisy fans on them. I got a sound level app on my phone and the fans on one of them was reading louder than the engine on a 155 climbing out of Bradford. Atleast engine noise can stop. The fans never slow down!
Also the state of the interior too leaves a lot to be desired. Carpets sticky with dirt too!
I'd rather get on a Pacer than a 158 anyday!

Yes the air con is not the best and does need sorting out but they are no wheres near as bad as pacers. Pacers are simply awful, the ride quality is the worst i have ever experienced, going round corners in a pacer is as painful as getting a filling done without anesthetic. They simply are the worst trains on UK rails at the moment.
Sam

 

[backontrack]

158s are brilliant! I completely disagree with you.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Some of the 158's are in a Real bad way i hope Arriva Refurbish them to a high standard i was a on a 3 Carriage 158 on the line Friday and the floor was a mess it was sticky yet threadbare then i traveled on a 2 carriage unit today and the Internal doors wouldn't open i had to pries them open to get a seat

 

[bluenoxid]

They're great until you get to Leeds and everyone wants off

 

[Haydn1971]

Some of the 158's are in a Real bad way i hope Arriva Refurbish them to a high standard i was a on a 3 Carriage 158 on the line Friday and the floor was a mess it was sticky yet threadbare then i traveled on a 2 carriage unit today and the Internal doors wouldn't open i had to pries them open to get a seat

Completely agree, there are some good examples of 158's elsewhere in the UK, however, Northerns fleet are good examples of how bad poor maintenance can make a quality train.

 

[Andyh82]

I also disagree, a 158 even in a scruffy state is way better than anything else on this route.

Regarding the timetables, ideally I'd like to see a fast service from the Calder Valley to Leeds calling only at Dewsbury. Anyone know if that is likely to be on the cards wth the Chester service?

 

[Bungle965]

I also disagree, a 158 even in a scruffy state is way better than anything else on this route.

Regarding the timetables, ideally I'd like to see a fast service from the Calder Valley to Leeds calling only at Dewsbury. Anyone know if that is likely to be on the cards wth the Chester service?

From Manchester calling ONLY at Dewsbury.
Yeah that`s not going to happen.
Sam

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Northern 158s are a bit rough, but they're certainly better than anything else on that route, particularly the centre cars in the 3-car sets (these have extra padding in the seats left over from TPE days). Of course there's no accounting for taste, but of Northern diesels they're definitely my preferred stock. In fact I'm going to list Northern diesels in order of preference (best first):
158 (3-car, centre vehicle)
158 (3-car end vehicle or WYPTE units)
156 (Northern Spirit units)
156 (FNW units)
158 (former Central Trains)
155/153
158 (former Wales and West units)
150 (FNW units)
142 (Northern Spirit units)
150 (unrefurbished ATN/LM units)
144*
142 (unrefurbished bus-seated units)
142 (Miserytravel units).

*=144 is standard units, as I've yet to sample the 144evolution!

 

[backontrack]

I also disagree, a 158 even in a scruffy state is way better than anything else on this route.

Regarding the timetables, ideally I'd like to see a fast service from the Calder Valley to Leeds calling only at Dewsbury. Anyone know if that is likely to be on the cards wth the Chester service?

Nope, not at all. That would have to take paths (and therefore services) away from Mirfield, Morley, Batley...it won't and shouldn't happen.

 

[edwin_m]

The main role of the longer-distance Calder Valley services is to provide links to Bradford and Halifax so I'm sure the Chester and Manchester Airport fast services will take this route although I haven't seen this confirmed anywhere. Calder Valley is never going to be competitive with the Huddersfield route for Manchester-Leeds journeys, so any Calder Valley train via Dewsbury is aimed at the the Leeds commuter/visitor from intermediate stations, and is therefore likely to make more calls west of Brighouse.

 

[Andyh82]

Looks like some confusion with what I was suggesting. If the Chester services are going to run via Dewsbury as some suggest, could the stopping pattern be:

Manchester Victoria, Rochdale, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Sowerby Bridge, Brighouse, Dewsbury, Leeds

In addition to what runs at the moment, plus Bradford/Halifax already gains extra and faster services from the rest of the proposals.

 

[edwin_m]

Looks like some confusion with what I was suggesting. If the Chester services are going to run via Dewsbury as some suggest, could the stopping pattern be:

Manchester Victoria, Rochdale, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Sowerby Bridge, Brighouse, Dewsbury, Leeds

In addition to what runs at the moment, plus Bradford/Halifax already gains extra and faster services from the rest of the proposals.

Who is suggesting they Chester trains are going to run via Dewsbury apart from you?

The Chester and Manchester Airport trains are essentially the proposals for Calder Valley, there is no "rest of" to speak of. It is likely that they would be extensions of the existing faster trains, not additional ones, so if they were diverted away from Halifax and Bradford those places would lose out.

 

[lejog]

Who is suggesting they Chester trains are going to run via Dewsbury apart from you?

The Chester and Manchester Airport trains are essentially the proposals for Calder Valley, there is no "rest of" to speak of. It is likely that they would be extensions of the existing faster trains, not additional ones, so if they were diverted away from Halifax and Bradford those places would lose out.

The DfT is suggesting precisely that, select the Chester to Leeds map dropdown on http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html and you will see the Northern Connect service routed both via Bradford and Dewsbury. The text is not specific - the service will run through to Leeds via Manchester Victoria and the Calder Valley.

Such a fast service, which could knock 15 mins off the journey time for towns in the Calder Valley to Leeds was recommended in an Arup report in 2011 as it could have a "transformational effect" on passenger numbers (report only publicly available in redacted form here, conclusions presented here).

There are plenty of other new services announced for the new franchise (many more than the couple in the ITT that you mentioned). The existing Calder Valley services from Hebden Bridge into Victoria are extended to Liverpool, Manchester Airport and Southport with an extra service (however it is routed) to Chester. There is an extra service from Leeds to Halifax. A new Bradford to Nottingham service and (not in the maps, but in the DfT press release) possibly Bradford to Hull. Not announced (but will happen) are 2/3tph extra between Victoria and Rochdale.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looks like some confusion with what I was suggesting. If the Chester services are going to run via Dewsbury as some suggest, could the stopping pattern be:

Manchester Victoria, Rochdale, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Sowerby Bridge, Brighouse, Dewsbury, Leeds

In addition to what runs at the moment, plus Bradford/Halifax already gains extra and faster services from the rest of the proposals.

Yes that was exactly the stopping pattern suggested in the Arup report (although they actually suggested diverting the Blackpool service rather than a Victoria service). I've suggested from the wording used in the franchise announcement that this service would be rush hour only and revert to running via Bradford at other times, the Southport service would swap over and run through Bradford at these times, so Halifax and Bradford wouldn't lose out (6tph up from the current 4tph). There would have to be an extra stopping service via Dewsbury which could be an extension of the new Leeds to Halifax service. However, the service patterns at the east end of the line are speculative at the moment.

 

[northwichcat]

The main role of the longer-distance Calder Valley services is to provide links to Bradford and Halifax so I'm sure the Chester and Manchester Airport fast services will take this route although I haven't seen this confirmed anywhere. Calder Valley is never going to be competitive with the Huddersfield route for Manchester-Leeds journeys, so any Calder Valley train via Dewsbury is aimed at the the Leeds commuter/visitor from intermediate stations, and is therefore likely to make more calls west of Brighouse.

With North TPE being routed away from Warrington the Chester to Leeds service is supposed to help keep a direct link between Warrington and West Yorkshire, albeit slower and serving different stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who is suggesting they Chester trains are going to run via Dewsbury apart from you?

The Chester and Manchester Airport trains are essentially the proposals for Calder Valley, there is no "rest of" to speak of. It is likely that they would be extensions of the existing faster trains, not additional ones, so if they were diverted away from Halifax and Bradford those places would lose out.

One 'Calder Vale' service currently does Victoria-Halifax-Dewsbury-Leeds as lejog reminded us in the opening posts and that is expected to continue after the recast. With Bradford being guaranteed a direct Airport and a direct Liverpool service we know it'll either be the Leeds-Chester or Leeds-Southport service which goes via Dewsbury.

 

[Mr Mean]

From reading various ITT documents and reports I would wager that the current Leeds to Victoria via Dewsbury will be extended to Southport and be a regular Northern service. The new Leeds to Chester will be Northern Connect and serve Bradford for most of the day. However it does appear that in peak times to reduce commuting times to/from Leeds, the Chester service will route through Dewsbury and hence the slower Northern Southport service will route through Bradford.

At a guess the new Halifax to Leeds service will be the one routed through to Hull/Bridlington. This prevents terminating services clogging up Leeds.

 

[lejog]

I should add that it is not surprising that there is some doubt about the exact services on the line under the new franchise. The Northern Hub and Arup Calder Valley reports identified a number of interventions required to support improved services - signalling and line speed improvements, Rochdale 3rd platform, Halifax 3rd platform, Bradford capacity improvements and East of Leeds capacity improvements (not to mention the Ordsall Chord). While all of these are budgeted for during CP5 (funded either by Network Rail or via the West Yorkshire Combined Authority), they were planned as a sub-project of TPE North electrification and thus timescales throw into doubt.

However work has now started at Rochdale and the DfT while being typically vague have announced that "The intention is to complete the works in phases, starting at the Western end and finishing in time to provide a diversionary route such that the Transpennine Route Upgrade can be completed by 2022". That gives some hope that the work will be complete by December 2019.

Hopefully more will be known later this year when a detailed CP5 plan is released, also the detailed business case for East Leeds Parkway finalised. Another unresolved question is whether there is an extra path via Dewsbury for 2 Northern tph.

 

[northwichcat]

From reading various ITT documents and reports I would wager that the current Leeds to Victoria via Dewsbury will be extended to Southport and be a regular Northern service. The new Leeds to Chester will be Northern Connect and serve Bradford for most of the day. However it does appear that in peak times to reduce commuting times to/from Leeds, the Chester service will route through Dewsbury and hence the slower Northern Southport service will route through Bradford.

The ITT specification allowed a gap in service to Chester at peak times (when ATW already provide 2tph to Chester) to allow Northern to operate a token Ellesmere Port to Leeds service.

I would agree about the Northern Connect service going via Bradford. It seems better services and high quality trains for Bradford were a high priority for Arriva in preparing their franchise bid.

 

[Greybeard33]

I should add that it is not surprising that there is some doubt about the exact services on the line under the new franchise. The Northern Hub and Arup Calder Valley reports identified a number of interventions required to support improved services - signalling and line speed improvements, Rochdale 3rd platform, Halifax 3rd platform, Bradford capacity improvements and East of Leeds capacity improvements (not to mention the Ordsall Chord). While all of these are budgeted for during CP5 (funded either by Network Rail or via the West Yorkshire Combined Authority), they were planned as a sub-project of TPE North electrification and thus timescales throw into doubt.

However work has now started at Rochdale and the DfT while being typically vague have announced that "The intention is to complete the works in phases, starting at the Western end and finishing in time to provide a diversionary route such that the Transpennine Route Upgrade can be completed by 2022". That gives some hope that the work will be complete by December 2019.

Hopefully more will be known later this year when a detailed CP5 plan is released, also the detailed business case for East Leeds Parkway finalised. Another unresolved question is whether there is an extra path via Dewsbury for 2 Northern tph.

According to NRE, there are works between Victoria and Moston on 31 Jan and all the Feb Sundays - see e.g. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/servic.../2016&TOC=nt. Then on Sundays 6, 13 & 20 March there are works further east, with bustitution all the way from Victoria to Littleborough http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/servic.../2016&TOC=nt.

Could these be for the signalling and line speed interventions, or just routine maintenance/renewals?

 

[lejog]

According to NRE, there are works between Victoria and Moston on 31 Jan and all the Feb Sundays - see e.g. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/servic.../2016&TOC=nt. Then on Sundays 6, 13 & 20 March there are works further east, with bustitution all the way from Victoria to Littleborough http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/servic.../2016&TOC=nt.

Could these be for the, or just routine maintenance/renewals?

Yes signalling and line speed work is currently being carried out south of Rochdale, see this thread.

 

[Bungle965]

According to NRE, there are works between Victoria and Moston on 31 Jan and all the Feb Sundays - see e.g. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/servic.../2016&TOC=nt. Then on Sundays 6, 13 & 20 March there are works further east, with bustitution all the way from Victoria to Littleborough http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/servic.../2016&TOC=nt.

Could these be for the signalling and line speed interventions, or just routine maintenance/renewals?

Is the services going to terminate at Littleborough then, if so that is great news as the trailing crossover can finally get some use.
Sam

 

[Greybeard33]

Is the services going to terminate at Littleborough then, if so that is great news as the trailing crossover can finally get some use.
Sam

RTT shows the Leeds trains terminating in Littleborough Platform 1 and departing from Platform 2 six minutes later, so presumably there will be a shunt move over the crossover.