Calculating route distances involving LUL

[MikeWh]

I'm trying to convince TfL that they are overcharging Oyster users who avoid Central London by using the ELL. Example journey is Crayford to Alexandra Palace. The default route is via London Bridge and Moorgate, potentially including travel via Farringdon to enable a no touch out/in required en-route. This is charged at the combined TfL+NR rate which is correct. There is an alternative route defined via London Bridge and St Pancras/Kings Cross which requires touching at STP and KGX. This is charged at the cheaper NR only rate which is also correct. However, you can also travel via New Cross and Highbury & Islington. This should also be charged at the NR only rate, but because they can't distinguish it from the default it isn't.

I have been in correspondance with the helpdesk who have asked the fares department and responded with these reasons:

1. This would require pink validators at Highbury and this would confuse passengers. Oh dear, passengers are already confused because one of the ELL platforms has pink valiadtors while the other one doesn't, I agree that both would need them for this to work though.
2. National Rail do not sell tickets for use on that route.

I would like to try and disprove point 2. If you ask SETs website for fares for this journey travelling via Hoxton it will give you times. It will also give you the correct NR only fare on a few of the times. I don't understand why it only allows it on a few trains and suspect that the coding is suspect here.

Next up I tried the routeing guide. Alexandra Palace has one appropriate RP which is Finsbury Park. Crayford has several RPs but the most likely to be valid is Hither Green. The only routes between Hither Green and Finsbury Park are via LONDON. Drat! So, the only possibility is that the ELL is the shortest route. However, to compare distances I need to know how far it is between London Bridge and Moorgate on the Northen Line. Can anyone help?

 

[Daniel]

Moorgate to Bank 0.82 KM
Bank to London Bridge 0.69 KM

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm trying to convince TfL that they are overcharging Oyster users who avoid Central London by using the ELL. Example journey is Crayford to Alexandra Palace. The default route is via London Bridge and Moorgate, potentially including travel via Farringdon to enable a no touch out/in required en-route. This is charged at the combined TfL+NR rate which is correct. There is an alternative route defined via London Bridge and St Pancras/Kings Cross which requires touching at STP and KGX. This is charged at the cheaper NR only rate which is also correct. However, you can also travel via New Cross and Highbury & Islington. This should also be charged at the NR only rate, but because they can't distinguish it from the default it isn't.

I have been in correspondance with the helpdesk who have asked the fares department and responded with these reasons:

1. This would require pink validators at Highbury and this would confuse passengers. Oh dear, passengers are already confused because one of the ELL platforms has pink valiadtors while the other one doesn't, I agree that both would need them for this to work though.
2. National Rail do not sell tickets for use on that route.

I would like to try and disprove point 2. If you ask SETs website for fares for this journey travelling via Hoxton it will give you times. It will also give you the correct NR only fare on a few of the times. I don't understand why it only allows it on a few trains and suspect that the coding is suspect here.

Next up I tried the routeing guide. Alexandra Palace has one appropriate RP which is Finsbury Park. Crayford has several RPs but the most likely to be valid is Hither Green. The only routes between Hither Green and Finsbury Park are via LONDON. Drat! So, the only possibility is that the ELL is the shortest route. However, to compare distances I need to know how far it is between London Bridge and Moorgate on the Northen Line. Can anyone help?

The shortest route, according to the Routeing Guide, is measured using the mileages in the National Rail Timetable, LUL services count as 0miles IIRC. The Routeing Guide also says, in one [often contradictory] section, that the shortest route is also within three miles of the shortest route. Bear in mind though, that the Routeing Guide also says you don't use the Routeing Guide if you are using the shortest route or direct trains:roll:

Hope that helps.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for the replies. So taking the bit of the journey that is different we get:

5.75m New Cross to Dalston Junction
1.50m Dalston Kingsland to Highbury and Islington
7.25m Total

3.00m New Cross to London Bridge
2.25m Moorgate to Highbury and Islington
5.25m Total

So, assuming that the Underground is 0m the ELL route is only 2 miles longer so should be deemed a permitted route. It's also much less likely to suffer from crowds (unless Arsenal are playing at home which will affect the whole area, of course). Time to pass the baton back to TfL on this one.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for the replies. So taking the bit of the journey that is different we get:

5.75m New Cross to Dalston Junction
1.50m Dalston Kingsland to Highbury and Islington
7.25m Total

3.00m New Cross to London Bridge
2.25m Moorgate to Highbury and Islington
5.25m Total

So, assuming that the Underground is 0m the ELL route is only 2 miles longer so should be deemed a permitted route. It's also much less likely to suffer from crowds (unless Arsenal are playing at home which will affect the whole area, of course). Time to pass the baton back to TfL on this one.

Why Dalston Kingsland? Isn't there now a direct route from Dalston Junction to Highbury & Islington?

 

[MikeWh]

Why Dalston Kingsland? Isn't there now a direct route from Dalston Junction to Highbury & Islington?

Yes, there is, but the NRT doesn't show the mileage.:roll:

 

[Paul Kelly]

It also doesn't seem to show the mileage for New Cross Gate to Surrey Quays. I wanted to check that to work out whether changing at Surrey Quays was less than 3 miles longer than walking from New Cross Gate to New Cross for my recent East Croydon to Hither Green journey. In the end I did the walk as I was using Oyster and wanted to make sure it registered the cheaper Not London fare.

 

[MikeWh]

It also doesn't seem to show the mileage for New Cross Gate to Surrey Quays. I wanted to check that to work out whether changing at Surrey Quays was less than 3 miles longer than walking from New Cross Gate to New Cross for my recent East Croydon to Hither Green journey. In the end I did the walk as I was using Oyster and wanted to make sure it registered the cheaper Not London fare.

It is less than 3 miles as the distance is the same from New Cross and New Cross Gate to Surrey Quays. You were wise to walk though because if using PAYG only you will be overcharged when changing at Surrey Quays. You need to go one stop further and touch the pink route validator at Canada Water.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for the replies. So taking the bit of the journey that is different we get:

5.75m New Cross to Dalston Junction
1.50m Dalston Kingsland to Highbury and Islington
7.25m Total

3.00m New Cross to London Bridge
2.25m Moorgate to Highbury and Islington
5.25m Total

So, assuming that the Underground is 0m the ELL route is only 2 miles longer so should be deemed a permitted route. It's also much less likely to suffer from crowds (unless Arsenal are playing at home which will affect the whole area, of course). Time to pass the baton back to TfL on this one.

Just realised I've missed the obvious trick. A route "Not Underground" ticket isn't valid via Moorgate! Therefore I have to compare the alternative routes which avoid the Underground. So now we have:

5.75m New Cross to Dalston Junction
1.50m Dalston Kingsland to Highbury and Islington
1.25m Highbury & Islington to Finsbury Park
8.50m Total

3.00m New Cross to London Bridge
3.00m London Bridge to St Pancras
2.50m Kings Cross to Finsbury Park
8.50m Total

So it's the joint shortest route! Wahay!

 

[FGWman]

Does the route you are taking travel from NewCross to Whitechapel. Surely as this was part of the underground before closure then NR only fares would not apply and TFL/NR fares would be the correct option ?

 

[MikeWh]

Does the route you are taking travel from NewCross to Whitechapel. Surely as this was part of the underground before closure then NR only fares would not apply and TFL/NR fares would be the correct option ?

Yes, it is that route, but no, NR only fares apply because it is run as part of London Overground now.

 

[barrykas]

Yes, it is that route, but no, NR only fares apply because it is run as part of London Overground now.

<panto>"Oh no they don't!"</panto>

Journeys on the Overground are charged at the same rate as those on the tube and DLR, as are journeys between Marylebone and West Ruislip/Amersham, West Hampstead Thameslink and London Bridge/Elephant & Castle, Paddington and Greenford/West Drayton, Kings Cross/Moorgate (GN) and Finsbury Park, Liverpool Street and Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale/Walthamstow Central/Stratford, and Liverpool Street/Fenchurch Street and Grays (via Rainham or Ockendon).

See this page on the TfL site for details, and a link to a map showing what routes TfL fares apply to.

In addition, using the ELL doesn't avoid Zone 1, as the boundary wiggles such that Shoreditch High Street is a Zone 1 station. Hence the charge for Crayford (Zone 6) - Ally Pally (Zone 3) being £6.50 Peak/£4.40 Off-Peak whether you use the ELL or Tube to cross London.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[MikeWh]

<panto>"Oh no they don't!"</panto>

Journeys on the Overground are charged at the same rate as those on the tube and DLR, as are journeys between Marylebone and West Ruislip/Amersham, West Hampstead Thameslink and London Bridge/Elephant & Castle, Paddington and Greenford/West Drayton, Kings Cross/Moorgate (GN) and Finsbury Park, Liverpool Street and Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale/Walthamstow Central/Stratford, and Liverpool Street/Fenchurch Street and Grays (via Rainham or Ockendon).

See this page on the TfL site for details, and a link to a map showing what routes TfL fares apply to.

In addition, using the ELL doesn't avoid Zone 1, as the boundary wiggles such that Shoreditch High Street is a Zone 1 station. Hence the charge for Crayford (Zone 6) - Ally Pally (Zone 3) being £6.50 Peak/£4.40 Off-Peak whether you use the ELL or Tube to cross London.

Cheers,

Barry

I knew this would get complicated. There are three levels of fare on the rails in zones 1-6. There is the TfL rail rates which apply when the whole journey is made using Underground, DLR or those NR services which accepted Oyster PAYG before November 2009. Then you have the NR rate which applies on all NR routes (including Overground) where the whole journey is on NR and part of it is on non-TfL NR. Finally you have the combined rate where a journey includes both non-TfL NR and Underground or DLR. The NR rate and the combined rate are the same as long as the journey doesn't venture into zone 1. If it does there is a £1.30 peak, £1.20 off-peak surcharge.

So, my complaint is that as the route is entirely NR (even though it goes into zone 1) I should not have to pay the surcharge. It should be the same as the alternative fare charged when you travel via St Pancras and Kings Cross.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Just realised I've missed the obvious trick. A route "Not Underground" ticket isn't valid via Moorgate! Therefore I have to compare the alternative routes which avoid the Underground. So now we have:

5.75m New Cross to Dalston Junction
1.50m Dalston Kingsland to Highbury and Islington
1.25m Highbury & Islington to Finsbury Park
8.50m Total

3.00m New Cross to London Bridge
3.00m London Bridge to St Pancras
2.50m Kings Cross to Finsbury Park
8.50m Total

So it's the joint shortest route! Wahay!

There is a inter-availability easement in regard to Moorgate-Finsbury Park which allows use of the LUL services and, unlike the 'Thameslink' easement, it makes no mention of 'rte not underground' tickets.

 

[MikeWh]

There is a inter-availability easement in regard to Moorgate-Finsbury Park which allows use of the LUL services and, unlike the 'Thameslink' easement, it makes no mention of 'rte not underground' tickets.

Thanks for that. I'm actually making use of that at weekends between Highbury and Finsbury Park. Of course route not underground is not valid between London Bridge and Moorgate which is what rules out the shortest route.