CAF MK5 Rough Riding

[mike57]

As a passenger who uses the Mk5s out of Scarborough here are my thoughts:

Ride quality is frequently 'jiggly', not the huge lurches that you get between Leeds and Manchester on the 185s, a much faster rattle. There are also quite a few other rattles and squeaks. I dont know if being in push or pull mode makes any difference, or even if it would. Its very noticable on a couple of streches between Malton and Seamer. I have no idea what causes it. Speeds on this section are 70mph ish

Some of the design 'features' just look like a poor job, location of charging sockets is one example, you need to be a contortonist with eyes on stalks to plug anything in, and if you have another passenger sat next to you it becomes a major disturbance. Seat alignment with windows couldn't be much worse, surely a layout could have been developed which was better whilst still keeping the same number of seats. Aircon blowing up at the bottom of the windows is not ideal. The whole thing just feels like a lack of attention to detail. Getting it right (or better) probably wouldn't have cost anymore if it had been sorted at the design stage, sorting it now will not happen.

Not having an underfloor engine is a plus, and doors at the end with proper vestibules is much more comfortable in hot or cold weather. If there had been more attention to detail then something which is a slight improvement could have been turned into a big improvement.

As for the 68s that haul them, well there is just one comment, noisy.

 

[greyman42]

Ride quality is frequently 'jiggly', not the huge lurches that you get between Leeds and Manchester on the 185s, a much faster rattle.

I always thought that the huge lurch between Leeds and Huddersfield was solely down to the track.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Ride quality is frequently 'jiggly', not the huge lurches that you get between Leeds and Manchester on the 185s, a much faster rattle. There are also quite a few other rattles and squeaks. I dont know if being in push or pull mode makes any difference, or even if it would. Its very noticable on a couple of streches between Malton and Seamer. I have no idea what causes it. Speeds on this section are 70mph ish

That is basically hunting that you’re describing, the fact that it’s emerging at 70mph on stock rated for 125mph(?) is rather concerning. The Hitachi 80x units hunt (particularly the intermediate trailers) but it doesn’t start emerging until 100mph+ in my experience.

 

[matacaster]

I always thought that the huge lurch between Leeds and Huddersfield was solely down to the track.

It was, Heaton Lodge junction....dreadful.

 

[modernrail]

It was, Heaton Lodge junction....dreadful.

I remember riding my first 185 from Leeds to Huddersfield thinking, they are 3 carriages too short, don’t like the door position but they seem pretty well made, then thinking we were going to end up in the trees as it went around the corner at Heaton Lodge.

 

[Efini92]

It was, Heaton Lodge junction....dreadful.

It’s always been bad at Heaton lodge. I’m sure at one time TPE had their own restriction when taking the junction.

 

[driverd]

I always thought that the huge lurch between Leeds and Huddersfield was solely down to the track.

As above, Heaton Lodge is bad, as is Batley. Its massively exaggerated by the 185 suspension, though, as no other unit, from 14x through 195s, are as rough over said junctions. Famously, 14x's used to ride Micklefield Junction better than 185s before it was all relayed.

 

[CAF397]

It’s always been bad at Heaton lodge. I’m sure at one time TPE had their own restriction when taking the junction.

TPE do still have a restriction. Junction speed in the UP direction is 70mph, TPE trains are limited to 60mph.

 

[modernrail]

What the solution here at least for future trains but ideally to improve trains that are going to be around for another 30 years. Huddersfield Uni seems to be doing interesting work in this area. Do all the train companies need to join forces with them to work out the ideal balance between weight saving and comfort on UK rails, possible retrofit measures and guidance for future stock?

Also, it is possible some of the other issues we are seeing are connected to this, such as cracking on Hitachi units, making some sort of collaboration even more sensible?

 

[AM9]

What the solution here at least for future trains but ideally to improve trains that are going to be around for another 30 years. Huddersfield Uni seems to be doing interesting work in this area. Do all the train companies need to join forces with them to work out the ideal balance between weight saving and comfort on UK rails, possible retrofit measures and guidance for future stock?

Also, it is possible some of the other issues we are seeing are connected to this, such as cracking on Hitachi units, making some sort of collaboration even more sensible?

It seems that Siemens can design lightweight inside frame bogies (both motor and trailer) that ride well and are kind to track, Bombardier recently also achieves that, CAF and Hiotachi seem to have some issues but it can't be rocket science if others can do it.

 

[Efini92]

TPE do still have a restriction. Junction speed in the UP direction is 70mph, TPE trains are limited to 60mph.

Do they still have one through batley as well?

 

[fgwrich]

I’m not sure if either will work, but we’ll see. You can certainly hear the brakes on those Mk5s, and it certainly adds to a free wake up call.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Can’t view those vids, as it says “Video is not rated. Log in to watch”

 

[fgwrich]

Can’t view those vids, as it says “Video is not rated. Log in to watch”

Apologies, I'll try to fix it in a bit.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Ta. YT one works now for me. The vimeo ones didn’t.

 

[Clansman]

Another one from me. This time between Stonehaven and Aberdeen. Clunks and rattles galore.

Streamable Video

Watch this video on Streamable.

streamable.com

 

[92002]

Another one from me. This time between Stonehaven and Aberdeen. Clunks and rattles galore.

Streamable Video

Watch this video on Streamable.

streamable.com

Think quite a bit of the solution to lively running could be cured by more tamping and improve the track quality.

Another thing to consider is the vehicle length producing different running quality.

Lurches invariably are poor track alignment and cured by a tamping machine. Doubtful that its design of the vehicles. CAF have produced many vehicles around the world. Could equally be said for Hitachi too.

 

[hexagon789]

Think quite a bit of the solution to lively running could be cured by more tamping and improve the track quality.

Another thing to consider is the vehicle length producing different running quality.

Lurches invariably are poor track alignment and cured by a tamping machine. Doubtful that its design of the vehicles. CAF have produced many vehicles around the world. Could equally be said for Hitachi too.

I'm with you, I think a lot of the perceived poor ride of trains today is down to track quality. Certainly many similar or indeed the same bogie designs ride well on the Continent. I don't think the designs are able to take our somewhat less smooth track!

Even trains which usually ride well I've noticed often lurch and sway a bit in some places that I don't recall them doing previously.

I'm sure there was a piece a few years ago where an engineer said the overall track quality wasn't quite as sharp on the premier mainlines as it was in BR's day.

Mk4s for one get some stick, but I can remember riding in them over 15 years ago and they behaved much better than nowadays.

 

[AM9]

I'm with you, I think a lot of the perceived poor ride of trains today is down to track quality. Certainly many similar or indeed the same bogie designs ride well on the Continent. I don't think the designs are able to take our somewhat less smooth track!

Even trains which usually ride well I've noticed often lurch and sway a bit in some places that I don't recall them doing previously.

I'm sure there was a piece a few years ago where an engineer said the overall track quality wasn't quite as sharp on the premier mainlines as it was in BR's day.

Mk4s for one get some stick, but I can remember riding in them over 15 years ago and they behaved much better than nowadays.

None of the above recognises that recent CAF rolling stock has poor ride qualities whereas most other stock doesn't seem to suffer the same which would indicate that track isn't the issue.

 

[hexagon789]

None of the above recognises that recent CAF rolling stock has poor ride qualities whereas most other stock doesn't seem to suffer the same which would indicate that track isn't the issue.

No worse than equivalent Hitachi and Siemens stock. I find 380s and 385s are equally rough on a lot of stretches.

 

[AM9]

No worse than equivalent Hitachi and Siemens stock. I find 380s and 385s are equally rough on a lot of stretches.

Class 380s and 385s have conventional outside framed bogies which should be compared with Electrostars etc., - whereas the discussion is about recent CAF units - all of which have lightweight inside frame bogies which seem to exhibit poor ride characteristics not normally experienced by their competitors' lightweight bogies, e.g the Siemens SF7000 and Bombardier Flexx-eco ranges.

 

[Speed43125]

Class 380s and 385s have conventional outside framed bogies which should be compared with Electrostars etc., - whereas the discussion is about recent CAF units - all of which have lightweight inside frame bogies which seem to exhibit poor ride characteristics not normally experienced by their competitors' lightweight bogies, e.g the Siemens SF7000 and Bombardier Flexx-eco ranges.

385s are inside framed bogies on the non-powered wheelsets.

 

[hexagon789]

Class 380s and 385s have conventional outside framed bogies which should be compared with Electrostars etc., - whereas the discussion is about recent CAF units - all of which have lightweight inside frame bogies which seem to exhibit poor ride characteristics not normally experienced by their competitors' lightweight bogies, e.g the Siemens SF7000 and Bombardier Flexx-eco ranges.

385s have inboard framed trailer bogies and these cars ride no worse than the motor cars.

 

[Clansman]

None of the above recognises that recent CAF rolling stock has poor ride qualities whereas most other stock doesn't seem to suffer the same which would indicate that track isn't the issue.

Precisely.

I wouldn't he highlighting my own experience if I thought it was indifferent to other rolling stock I have used regularly on these routes.

I've got a couple of the Mk3s on the same stretches on an old device I will try and find.

 

[Tynwald]

I have travelled on them between Crewe and Manchester many times. found the ride superb. They are a lovely train.

 

[DanNCL]

I took a Mark 5 from York to Manchester yesterday. I was sat I first class so that may have made a difference, but I can’t say I thought there was anything particularly poor about the ride quality. Granted it certainly wasn’t anything to shout about, but it seemed adequate enough to me, no worse than the 800 I’d alighted from prior.

 

[nlogax]

I'm with you, I think a lot of the perceived poor ride of trains today is down to track quality. Certainly many similar or indeed the same bogie designs ride well on the Continent. I don't think the designs are able to take our somewhat less smooth track!

Feels like this could also be a factor. Is there a general problem with UK track quality compared to countries on the continent, and if so why is that? Maintenance? Ground conditions?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Feels like this could also be a factor. Is there a general problem with UK track quality compared to countries on the continent, and if so why is that? Maintenance? Ground conditions?

It varies. The WCML fast lines are pretty good, and a 350 can zoom along smooth as silk at 110 almost so you can't tell it's moving, but a lot of other lines are far below the standard the Germans would even apply to a 60km/h rural branch line.

Belgian track on the other hand is no better than ours.

 

[hexagon789]

Feels like this could also be a factor. Is there a general problem with UK track quality compared to countries on the continent, and if so why is that? Maintenance? Ground conditions?

Time and money. SLW at Weekends isn't really a thing anymore either.

 

[nlogax]

It varies. The WCML fast lines are pretty good, and a 350 can zoom along smooth as silk at 110 almost so you can't tell it's moving, but a lot of other lines are far below the standard the Germans would even apply to a 60km/h rural branch line.

Belgian track on the other hand is no better than ours.

Is it also a fair assumption that Velim's test track doesn't reflect the reality of certain UK trackwork where things really aren't tip-top?

It's been a long time since I was on a Mk3 sleeper so I can't remember how their BT10s compare with CAF's bogies. Anyone done the Night Riviera recently?