CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[chrisjo]

197s have been covering on the Bidstons again due to the units up there failing again recently, even the thread about them was closed as people had decided they were running fine.

I was following that one, but I think maybe the thread was becoming a bit tiresome as a result of someone posting news of every failure as if it were a personal triumph.

 

[WirralLine]

197s have been covering on the Bidstons again due to the units up there failing again recently, even the thread about them was closed as people had decided they were running fine.

The 197s arnt exactly saints and have their fair share of problems. The only difference is their failures go mostly un-noticed partly due to the sheer number of 197s that are in use. Also if a 197 fails it can generally be covered by short forming something else and using that unit to cover.

197 availability hasnt been great, I believe even James Price mentioned this in his recent statement which was shared on another thread.

 

[amahy]

The 197s arnt exactly saints and have their fair share of problems. The only difference is their failures go mostly un-noticed partly due to the sheer number of 197s that are in use. Also if a 197 fails it can generally be covered by short forming something else and using that unit to cover.

197 availability hasnt been great, I believe even James Price mentioned this in his recent statement which was shared on another thread.

I think this is a lot of the problem. There aren’t actually enough 197s to cover every service, fully formed. When a key Marches or North Wales Coast service is short formed, it creates major overcrowding. Short forming is taken far too lightly, in my opinion.

 

[Envoy]

Of course now it's one service from Swansea every two hours that means the services that don't go through to Manchester and terminated in Cardiff are booked for 2 car from West Wales to Cardiff which isn't ideal particularly on Saturdays! Try any of these on a Saturday afternoon and often full and standing!

It is incredible that 2 car units are being used between Swansea and Cardiff and these are already full with people from the west by the time they reach Neath. Surely, the people of Swansea, Neath, Port Talbot & Bridgend realise that GWR operate longer trains to/from Cardiff and they should try and use them?

 

[Krokodil]

197 availability hasnt been great, I believe even James Price mentioned this in his recent statement which was shared on another thread.

Even those that are "available" often get sent into service with significant issues.

 

[tfw756rider]

197s have been covering on the Bidstons again due to the units up there failing again recently, even the thread about them was closed as people had decided they were running fine.

The 230 thread can be reopened (by using the "report" feature on it) if anyone has anything relevant to say in it; I've talked with administration about this.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Only 197038 at Crewe depot today (arriva traincare)

 

[RUK]

If they were formed in 4 car sets, the likelihood is there would be fewer of them - meaning there would have been a greater chance of a service being cancelled.

Does having longer sets when ordering not mean that you have to order more spare sets relatively though, because you have to factor in from the outset that you can’t cover for availability problems by short-forming?

 

[BenBracken]

197 availability hasnt been great, I believe even James Price mentioned this in his recent statement which was shared on another thread.

Can someone share that quote again?

 

[craigybagel]

Does having longer sets when ordering not mean that you have to order more spare sets relatively though, because you have to factor in from the outset that you can’t cover for availability problems by short-forming?

I would assume it's based on a certain percentage of how many units are required. But if making all the sets 4 car minimum means you need a higher amount of spare coverage, that's only going to make the already basket case economics behind such a move even worse.

 

[tfw756rider]

Can someone share that quote again?

...If we can get better mileage from ‘197s’ and get the ‘230s’ running reliably – and they are at the minute – the legacy stuff will be for use on poor availability days and when there are special events.

“But we still need to order new rolling stock. We’ve had two years of basically 20% passenger growth [per annum].” This growth occurred before the main Core Valley Lines routes have received their four trains per hour service and during years when TfW Rail was buffeted by the premature withdrawal of Class 175s, continuing blockades for CVL modernisation and Class 197s’ late entry into service and poor availability.

That was the more recent one from June 2025.

There was also an earlier one back in March 2025:

Transport for Wales Chief Executive James Price says he wants 'political and social pressure' applied to train manufacturers because the financial penalties in contracts do not produce all the desired results. He told a Senedd committee in January that TfW was still: 'experiencing delays from our manufacturers, both Stadler and CAF, and it's important to both work in partnership with them and to hold them to account in every way possible'.

 

[RUK]

But if making all the sets 4 car minimum means you need a higher amount of spare coverage, that's only going to make the already basket case economics behind such a move even worse.

The Welsh Government have instructed TfW to begin the process to acquire more rolling stock, though, because they don’t have enough now. Some of the FLIRTs are 4-car. We shall have to wait and see what formations the new rolling stock comes in.

 

[craigybagel]

The Welsh Government have instructed TfW to begin the process to acquire more rolling stock, though, because they don’t have enough now. Some of the FLIRTs are 4-car. We shall have to wait and see what formations the new rolling stock comes in.

A 2 car FLIRT would be next to useless in terms of capacity. Even a 4 car only gives you about the same amount of useable public space as a 3 car CAF once you factor in the smaller car length, the space taken up by the power car, the traction equipment behind the cabs, and the extra 2 gangways.

If the order does go ahead, I would be amazed if it's anything other than a follow on order for more 2 and/or 3 car 197s.

 

[Anonymous10]

P

A 2 car FLIRT would be next to useless in terms of capacity. Even a 4 car only gives you armour the same amount of useable public space as a 3 car CAF once you deduct the space taken up by the power car, the traction equipment behind the cabs, and the extra 2 gangways.

If the order does go ahead, I would be amazed if it's anything other than a follow on order for more 2 and/or 3 car 197s.

I would personally expect more 3 cars.

 

[tfw756rider]

If the order does go ahead, I would be amazed if it's anything other than a follow on order for more 2 and/or 3 car 197s.

I would personally expect more 3 cars.

Would they be "allowed" to be 197s though? I thought it was now "frowned upon" for any more pure diesel units to be ordered (in terms of National Rail in Britain in general) after the original orders of 195s/196s/197s.

Or would it be OK because it would be a follow-on order in terms of whatever such arrangement is in place between CAF and Transport for Wales (Rail), but that would be the absolute last - zero after that?

(I wouldn't be against it personally, just to be clear).

What sort of number of extra units would we be talking, by the way?

 

[Pete_uk]

Common sense would suggest more of tye same as a 197 with a battery instead of a third engine would add extra testing and fault finding etc

 

[Jez]

On the 1730 ex Manchester service this evening, at Shrewsbury the conductor apologied for the slight delay and said there was a fault on the train and a fitter was on board. It was then sorted within minutes. It just goes to show how many units are working with what must be quite minor faults.

I was surprised how full.the train was at Manchester and how many people got off at not just Wilmslow and Crewe but also Stockport as well. I often wonder how this one coped as a 3 car!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2025 ==

It is incredible that 2 car units are being used between Swansea and Cardiff and these are already full with people from the west by the time they reach Neath. Surely, the people of Swansea, Neath, Port Talbot & Bridgend realise that GWR operate longer trains to/from Cardiff and they should try and use them?

Yes but I prefer a 197 to the GWR so I almost always opt for the 197 due to personal preference.

 

[craigybagel]

Would they be "allowed" to be 197s though? I thought it was now "frowned upon" for any more pure diesel units to be ordered (in terms of National Rail in Britain in general) after the original orders of 195s/196s/197s.

Or would it be OK because it would be a follow-on order in terms of whatever such arrangement is in place between CAF and Transport for Wales (Rail), but that would be the absolute last - zero after that?

Has anyone ever actually proved the existence of such a rule? Trains with some form of electric transmission (however that electricity is sourced) cost more - even before you factor in the costs of not being compatible with the existing fleet.

(I wouldn't be against it personally, just to be clear).

What sort of number of extra units would we be talking, by the way?

Nobody knows publicly. The news has come pretty much out of the blue.

On the 1730 ex Manchester service this evening, at Shrewsbury the conductor apologied for the slight delay and said there was a fault on the train and a fitter was on board. It was then sorted within minutes. It just goes to show how many units are working with what must be quite minor faults.

I was surprised how full.the train was at Manchester and how many people got off at not just Wilmslow and Crewe but also Stockport as well. I often wonder how this one coped as a 3 car!

Before COVID, the preceding Cross Country 1727 Manchester - Bournemouth called at Stockport, Wilmslow and Crewe and provided something of a relief. That said, even then the 1730 Cardiff was still usually full with a few passengers standing as a 3 car 175.

 

[Caaardiff]

The procurement for new trains is for a number of reasons:

The limited life remaining of the 153s
The limited life remaining of the Mk4 fleet
The questionable reliability of the 230's
The desire to run more services with long term aspirations for
- Cardiff/Swansea - Bristol stopper at the new stations in South East Wales (Not confirmed to be TFW)
- Swansea metro, with no firm plans but likely with new stations on the District line
- North Wales Metro, with no firm plans but expected to be North Wales - Liverpool services

I wouldn't be surprised if the main focus on any new fleet with be long distance services, mainly Swansea - Manchester to replace the Mk4's and standardise the fleet and product offering on the route, therefore cascading the current 197's on the route to cover the above.
The only electrified part of that is Cardiff - Bristol (Not including the line into Temple Meads), which could see more Flirts required for the route.

 

[animationmilo]

The procurement for new trains is for a number of reasons:

The limited life remaining of the 153s
The limited life remaining of the Mk4 fleet
The questionable reliability of the 230's
The desire to run more services with long term aspirations for
- Cardiff/Swansea - Bristol stopper at the new stations in South East Wales (Not confirmed to be TFW)
- Swansea metro, with no firm plans but likely with new stations on the District line
- North Wales Metro, with no firm plans but expected to be North Wales - Liverpool services

I wouldn't be surprised if the main focus on any new fleet with be long distance services, mainly Swansea - Manchester to replace the Mk4's and standardise the fleet and product offering on the route, therefore cascading the current 197's on the route to cover the above.
The only electrified part of that is Cardiff - Bristol (Not including the line into Temple Meads), which could see more Flirts required for the route.

Sounds like it might be easier to order more 3 car 197 sets in the long run.

 

[Jez]

The procurement for new trains is for a number of reasons:

The limited life remaining of the 153s
The limited life remaining of the Mk4 fleet
The questionable reliability of the 230's
The desire to run more services with long term aspirations for
- Cardiff/Swansea - Bristol stopper at the new stations in South East Wales (Not confirmed to be TFW)
- Swansea metro, with no firm plans but likely with new stations on the District line
- North Wales Metro, with no firm plans but expected to be North Wales - Liverpool services

I wouldn't be surprised if the main focus on any new fleet with be long distance services, mainly Swansea - Manchester to replace the Mk4's and standardise the fleet and product offering on the route, therefore cascading the current 197's on the route to cover the above.
The only electrified part of that is Cardiff - Bristol (Not including the line into Temple Meads), which could see more Flirts required for the route.

I agree, at the moment the Manchester service is inconsistent with a MK4 every 2 hours and then a 5 car 197 every 2 hours which doesnt have first class.

It would make more sense to have a consistent approach to the Swansea-Manchester service and then use the 197s for other services like replacing the 154s/230s.

 

[Caaardiff]

Moved

 

[Bob Price]

There is a thread discussing replacement stock for TfW. Worth a look: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...vel-sets-long-term.285928/page-4#post-7350421

 

[BenBracken]

I have to admit I’m still in a state of shock that west Wales has new trains after decades of being given second hand and cast off stock and being given the impression that the lines survival is down to everything needing to being cheap to run. Which makes me wonder, are 197s economical units in terms of fuel efficiency and maintenance compared to 15x and Pacers? I’ve noticed that the need for request stops has gone now and west Wales services seem to call at all stations no matter if anyone is getting on or off. Is this because of fast acceleration of 197s and good fuel economy when stopping and starting? Or just a policy decision to serve communities better?

 

[meld3]

Lets not forget the modern day timescales involved, where it takes 7-10 years to tender, design, build, test, accept, train and introduce a new fleet....
So any trains running out of useable economic life before say 2033 need to be planned for about now.

 

[tfw756rider]

I have to admit I’m still in a state of shock that west Wales has new trains after decades of being given second hand and cast off stock and being given the impression that the lines survival is down to everything needing to being cheap to run. Which makes me wonder, are 197s economical units in terms of fuel efficiency and maintenance compared to 15x and Pacers? I’ve noticed that the need for request stops has gone now and west Wales services seem to call at all stations no matter if anyone is getting on or off. Is this because of fast acceleration of 197s and good fuel economy when stopping and starting? Or just a policy decision to serve communities better?

West Wales (along with Heart of Wales and Shrewsbury-Crewe) was originally (in the 2018-2021 fleet plan) only going to get the 170s (that would've been handed down from South Wales), with all other lines getting the brand new trains (except the minority of Mark 4 sets and 230s).

The intention for West Wales to get the 197s (which it did from 2024 onwards) only started when plans changed in 2022 to lose the 170s (to East Midlands Railway), acquire more Mark 4 sets and keep some 153s for longer than originally planned.

The 197s will definitely be more fuel-efficient than the Pacers, Sprinters and 175s, because of the 6-speed bus-style gearboxes. I believe the old "2-speed" hydraulic transmissions were used because the bus-style gearboxes for trains at the time were unreliable (that's why a lot of the Pacers had to be converted to hydraulic transmission when they were nearly-new).

By 2010, starting with the 172s, ZF Ecomat/EcoLife 6-speed gearboxes started to be fitted to new builds again, and were reliable, so the subsequent NI 4000s and "British" 195s/196s/197s cloned the 172 setup, and the 77th 197 will also be the 200th Diesel Multiple Unit in Britain (220th in the UK) with these fuel-saving 6-speed gearboxes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2025 ==

Has anyone ever actually proved the existence of such a rule? Trains with some form of electric transmission (however that electricity is sourced) cost more - even before you factor in the costs of not being compatible with the existing fleet.

I don't think so, but still ordering new pure diesel units in the 2020s does seem to have more people "against" it than before. And good point.

Sounds like it might be easier to order more 3 car 197 sets in the long run.

As long as it would actually be done with the increased environmental concerns, of course (granted, as they'd be a "follow-on" order, maybe it would be more acceptable, and to be fair, they have all the emission controls that older diesels don't have, and I guess there's nothing to stop them running on HVO (hydrotreated vegetable oil) in the future (I believe MTU have even certified the 1800 Series engines for that), and then synthetic fuel further in the future.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Common sense would suggest more of tye same as a 197 with a battery instead of a third engine

Don't the 197s have a hydromechanical transmission (whatever that means), so a battery wouldn't be much use?

Would they be "allowed" to be 197s though? I thought it was now "frowned upon" for any more pure diesel units to be ordered (in terms of National Rail in Britain in general) after the original orders of 195s/196s/197s.

Or would it be OK because it would be a follow-on order in terms of whatever such arrangement is in place between CAF and Transport for Wales (Rail), but that would be the absolute last - zero after that?

Has anyone ever actually proved the existence of such a rule?

While I strongly argue that there should be a ban on procurement of new diesel trains (including new vehicles for existing 19x), I've not seen anything to suggest that such a ban has actually been introduced.

The procurement for new trains is for a number of reasons:

The limited life remaining of the 153s
The limited life remaining of the Mk4 fleet
The questionable reliability of the 230's
The desire to run more services with long term aspirations for
- Cardiff/Swansea - Bristol stopper at the new stations in South East Wales (Not confirmed to be TFW)
- Swansea metro, with no firm plans but likely with new stations on the District line
- North Wales Metro, with no firm plans but expected to be North Wales - Liverpool services

Some North Wales service upgrades (eg. Liverpool-Llandudno/Shrewsbury and Manchester-Holyhead) were promised in the 2018 franchise award and therefore (theoretically, although issues such as the 230s could scupper that) were already accounted for in the 77-unit class 197 fleet ordered at the time?

The 197s will definitely be more fuel-efficient than the Pacers, Sprinters and 175s, because of the 6-speed bus-style gearboxes.

More-fuel-efficient than the 175s? Yes, probably, but they were quite a bit heavier than Sprinters. Not sure how the CAF units compare as their weights don't seem to be published on Wiki.

they have all the emission controls that older diesels don't have, and I guess there's nothing to stop them running on HVO (hydrotreated vegetable oil) in the future

Didn't the introduction of some of the systems to 'clean up' the exhaust of diesel engines in road vehicles result in buses actually burning more fuel overall (but with less of the NOX and partculates that are harmful for humans to breathe in)?

I have to admit I’m still in a state of shock that west Wales has new trains after decades of being given second hand and cast off stock and being given the impression that the lines survival is down to everything needing to being cheap to run. Which makes me wonder, are 197s economical units in terms of fuel efficiency and maintenance compared to 15x and Pacers?

DMU Fuel Economy topic - includes figures for Northern's class 195s. I doubt the 197s are much different to 195s in that regard.

West Wales (along with Heart of Wales and Shrewsbury-Crewe) was originally (in the 2018-2021 fleet plan) only going to get the 170s (that would've been handed down from South Wales), with all other lines getting the brand new trains (except the minority of Mark 4 sets and 230s).

Weren't 197s always expected on the hourly Carmarthen-Manchester services (plus at least a train every two hours beyond that), with 170s covering what was left. If the timetable had remained as it was in Arriva days, this would have meant a 197 every two hours to Milford Haven (extension of the Manchester services), with the 170s appearing on Swansea - Pembroke Dock every two hours. Interestingly, in that scenario the Pembroke Dock services would likely to have increased to 3 coaches in length, given that the 2-car 170s would presumably have been on the Heart Of Wales?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Realtime Trains | 3Q81 2130 Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth | 10/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q81 2130 departure from Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth on 10/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

197s testing on the Cambrian Line tonight.

 

[Jez]

Weren't 197s always expected on the hourly Carmarthen-Manchester services (plus at least a train every two hours beyond that), with 170s covering what was left. If the timetable had remained as it was in Arriva days, this would have meant a 197 every two hours to Milford Haven (extension of the Manchester services), with the 170s appearing on Swansea - Pembroke Dock every two hours. Interestingly, in that scenario the Pembroke Dock services would likely to have increased to 3 coaches in length, given that the 2-car 170s would presumably have been on the Heart Of Wales?

Yes that is correct. Originally the plan was 197s on the Milford Haven and Carmarthen to Manchesters with 170s on Pembroke Dock and I think Fishguard.

 

[sd0733]

197027 is now in service, starting on 04:55 Chester to Manchester Airport this morning
Looks like theres 4 ERTMS sets in service today with non currently booked to end at Holyhead