CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[craigybagel]

As a passenger it is noticeable that a lot of power is applied just to move off, despite slippery conditions leading to inevitable slippage. Your explanation explains why that is. Surely a design flaw that needs remedying?

What it really needs is a holdover button like we had on 175s. Why we aren't trusted to be in control of the brake is anyone's guess. I'm not sure if there's any practical remedy that can be made - maybe lower the threshold at which the brakes will release? Most of the time, the train will move at the lowest power setting - but if it's heavily laden it requires more power, and there's noway of knowing if you've given it enough until the train starts moving.

"Smaller lines" apparently including the Shrewsbury-Holyhead leg of the Birmingham services. Whereas the Cheltenham services will be formed of a four car 231 even if they're carrying one man and his dog.

To be fair, the Cheltenham services can be very busy, and as has already been pointed out, a 4 car 231 doesn't give that much capacity.
I'm still not entirely convinced the 2 hourly 2 car Birmingham - Holyhead service is in the long term plans anyway.

Not sure why the obsession with 231's though. Their fuel range is terrible and they won't even be able to do a full days work on Ebbw Vale and Maesteg services without dropping in for fuel, never mind long distance services away from their home Depot - They are Stadler, not CAF units.

I'm surprised by this, given those are the routes they're actually designed for! It might explain the rumour (since debunked) that they were looking at fitting pantographs and sending them to Manchester. We can but dream.....

But there will be fewer options for service recovery. A large fleet of DMU's will provide more spare cover. A smaller fleet of 5 car trains means fewer spares, reducing your options when things go wrong. They will also be fewer options across the country to recover the service when things go wrong. Under the current setup there are 197's all over which can step in and cover.

And of course, whilst there are plenty of routes that next extra capacity right now, there are also plenty where a single 197 will provide more than enough capacity for years to come.

 

[Krokodil]

Not sure why the obsession with 231's though.

Mostly reliability. I am fed up with dealing with faulty 197s. 231s had a rocky start but the Mp401D figures are now improving substantially. 197s on the other hand are only seeing slow progress. The build quality is terrible. How reliable are 231 toilet doors out of interest? How do they perform on a greasy rail (part cancellations on the Conwy Valley for the second day in a row due to adhesion issues).

Their fuel range is terrible

Would probably help if they were bimode units, they'll be doing quite a bit of running under the wires.

Also, 4 car doesn't mean more seating capacity. A 231's carriage is shorter than a 197. A 4 car 231 has 171 seats whereas a 3 car 197 has 186 seats.

Quite a bit more seats than the two coach 197s which will be forming every other service between Shrewsbury, Chester and Holyhead though. I think that if the balance of two car to three car units ordered was flipped then we might stand a better chance.

To be fair, the Cheltenham services can be very busy

"Can be" is the key phrase here. With the 197s we're told that they will be formed up into pairs for the busy bits and split for the quiet bits (you know, when the number of passengers is only 150% of the number of seats available).

I'm still not entirely convinced the 2 hourly 2 car Birmingham - Holyhead service is in the long term plans anyway.

The long term plan we were given before was:
Cardiff Manchester: 5 car (alternating between 197s and LHCS)
Cardiff-Holyhead: TBC
Bangor-Manchester: 3 car
Liverpool-Chester: 4 car then split for Cardiff/Llandudno
Birmingham-Cambrian: 2+2 as now
Birmingham-Holyhead: 4 car as far as Shrewsbury, then split with one set forward to Holyhead and the other attaching to the next inbound service back to Birmingham.

That was what they told us the long term plan was a couple of years ago. Whether they have since had a rethink after being told that it was "madness" by a mixture of frontline staff and Controllers I do not know.

 

[The_Train]

Why did it need two 37's, I wonder.

There was a reversal in Crewe station to get onto the depot

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well, have any 5-car 197 formations run from Shrewsbury to Manchester today as promised?

 

[sd0733]

Well, have any 5-car 197 formations run from Shrewsbury to Manchester today as promised?

They weren't promised from today. Its merely that they're cleared. There's not enough units until some of the ERTMS fleet start entering mainline service to cover

 

[Lewisham2221]

Well, have any 5-car 197 formations run from Shrewsbury to Manchester today as promised?

They are permitted from today, not promised.

 

[Anonymous10]

Well, have any 5-car 197 formations run from Shrewsbury to Manchester today as promised?

A quick look on rtt shows a few 3 carriages 4 carriages and even a 6 coach.

 

[Lewisham2221]

A quick look on rtt shows a few 3 carriages 4 carriages and even a 6 coach.

6-car isn't permitted, so that will need to change

 

[SeaKing]

35,34 & 30 all seen at Crewe station today & 28 on LNWR

 

[Anonymous10]

6-car isn't permitted, so that will need to change

Perhaps a double allocation and a mistake on rtt

 

[Roger B]

Perhaps a double allocation and a mistake on rtt

Yes, it's shown incorrectly on RTT, but the error will be on a source system, rather than RTT itself.

 

[BillStampy]

The final hurdles have been overcome for 5 car Manchesters and they'll be officially permitted between Shrewsbury and Manchester from next week, 4th November will be the first day.

Today is the day! 1W22 is first up! Formed of 197103 + 197012. Next up is 197008 + 197108 by the looks of it on 1W64, good to see it's being used!

 

[sd0733]

A quick look on rtt shows a few 3 carriages 4 carriages and even a 6 coach.

2 5 car formations have since appeared too. Both the 4 car diagrams which split in Manchester currently showing as formed 5 cars.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Birmingham-Cambrian: 2+2 as now
Birmingham-Holyhead: 4 car as far as Shrewsbury, then split with one set forward to Holyhead and the other attaching to the next inbound service back to Birmingham.

There was also plans for the 07:30 and 15:30 departures from Shrewsbury to Birmingham (and their return journey) to be 3x2car 197’s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They are permitted from today, not promised.

I thought TfW were desperate to operate 5-car 197s Cardiff-Manchester to avoid all the shuffling about at Shrewsbury?
It seems a couple of 5-cars did operate today, so that should simplify the workings somewhat.

 

[800001]

Thats excellent news. Will there be any booked workings of 5 cars from next week or wait until more 197s can come into service?

5 car worked 1W22 1508 Port Talbot to Manchester (197103+197012), today 4th November.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I thought TfW were desperate to operate 5-car 197s Cardiff-Manchester to avoid all the shuffling about at Shrewsbury?
It seems a couple of 5-cars did operate today, so that should simplify the workings somewhat.

They are, but theres not enough units right now, no matter how much they want it.

It certainly open a lot more options.

 

[BillStampy]

5 car worked 1W22 1508 Port Talbot to Manchester (197103+197012), today 4th November.

And the 2nd up, 197008 + 197108 also ran successfully. Hopefully this'll be a trend that'll continue in the long run, excellent progress to 5 car Manchester services in the future. I'm sure the extra capacity is appreciated!

 

[craigybagel]

It means that on the two evening services the split at Manchester, they no longer need to ensure that all 4 sets involved are only 2 cars. That had been rather challenging in the past and required either set swaps or the use of only 1 set (and a set swap at Crewe as a result)

 

[vicbury]

A couple of observations from travelling today:

• Great to see five car trains running from Cardiff to Manchester.
• I don't think I've ever travelled on a train with a clearer PA system when the guard is making announcements. They must have rather good microphones!

 

[BillStampy]

A couple of observations from travelling today:

• Great to see five car trains running from Cardiff to Manchester.
• I don't think I've ever travelled on a train with a clearer PA system when the guard is making announcements. They must have rather good microphones!

It's brilliant that TfW are running better now, from my count, only 7 of the Welsh Marches trains were 2 coaches today, a rather quick one, but it's a really good improvement! The rest ranged from 3-5 coaches, mainly a mix of 3 and 5s, including 5 car 197s to Manchester. I hope this is the start of the end for the 2 coaches, I've been on the Marches only a few times before, but the few times I've been stuffed into anything less than 3 coaches, it doesn't end well.

I think the final clearance of 5 car 197s to Manchester will help a lot in the long run, especially when more 197s are released from routes they shouldn't be on, I count 3 197/1s on Maestegs today, 108, 114, 122. 114 was swapping in for a 158 that has been sent North but still, other was a 150 and a 2 coach 197. Those units can form more, it shows that it's possible, as long as they don't break, that is!

 

[WAB]

A couple of observations from travelling today:

• Great to see five car trains running from Cardiff to Manchester.
• I don't think I've ever travelled on a train with a clearer PA system when the guard is making announcements. They must have rather good microphones!

It's better than getting blasted by the chime on the 150 then struggling to hear the indistinct mumble that follows!

 

[Bob Price]

A strange Facebook post from OPU Warwickshire showing a 197 on the back of Alleys lorry. The caption reads that it was being taken from M40 junction 15 to the Rail Innovation Centre at Wilmcote, Stratford upon Avon.

I have no idea why it what it was going there for.

The link to the picture is here. It shows an Allys lorry an a 197 clearly on the back

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[Peter Sarf]

A strange Facebook post from OPU Warwickshire showing a 197 on the back of Alleys lorry. The caption reads that it was being taken from M40 junction 15 to the Rail Innovation Centre at Wilmcote, Stratford upon Avon.

I have no idea why it what it was going there for.

The link to the picture is here. It shows an Allys lorry an a 197 clearly on the back

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I cannot help feeling that is Long Marston.
But Wilmcote is to the North of the Rail Innovation Centre at Long Marston - so the other side of Stratford upon Avon.

 

[Bob Price]

My thoughts exactly. And what is it doing going to Long Maston anyway?

 

[nigelsporne]

197029 passed through Crewe this afternoon, I assume heading for Chester.
TfW services S Wales to Manchester in a bit of a mess today. No 67s and short formed 197s. No 5 car sets. Problems at Cardiff with the signalling apparently.

 

[Jamesrob637]

How many Manchester to South Wales are currently booked 5-car?

 

[sd0733]

How many Manchester to South Wales are currently booked 5-car?

197 wise- 0. Couple of booked 4s but nothing is booked 5 until the timetable change even if the odd one Is overformed.

 

[Jez]

From December I understand the plan is for 5 car 197s to be on Swansea-Manchester which will be every 2 hours and then the others will be MK4's which will terminate at Cardiff aside from the once a day service in each direction from/to Swansea.

 

[Rhydgaled]

From December I understand the plan is for 5 car 197s to be on Swansea-Manchester which will be every 2 hours and then the others will be MK4's which will terminate at Cardiff aside from the once a day service in each direction from/to Swansea.

Expect lots of splitting and joining at Swansea then since the December timetabe shows lots of the odd-hour (ie. non-LHCS) Manchesters running through to/from Pembrokeshire. The 07:30, 09:30, 11:30, 13:30, 15:30 departures from MAN are all shown as Pembrokeshire trains with the 17:30 terminating at Carmarthen. In the other direction, the 11:13 arrival at MAN comes from Carmarthen with the 13:13, 15:13, 17:13 and 21:13 all starting from Milford Haven and the 19:15 from Fishguard Harbour.