CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Tester]

According to the TFWRail Twitter account, first class ticket holders will have to pay the same upgrade fee to use Standard Plus as standard class ticket holders, as it's a different class.

This seems a slightly odd decision to me.

If so, that had better be sorted out swiftly!

 

[Topological]

According to the TFWRail Twitter account, first class ticket holders will have to pay the same upgrade fee to use Standard Plus as standard class ticket holders, as it's a different class.

This seems a slightly odd decision to me.

Made even more odd, because then the refund on the first class element would be due as the ticket was treated as a standard class ticket?

 

[Kite159]

According to the TFWRail Twitter account, first class ticket holders will have to pay the same upgrade fee to use Standard Plus as standard class ticket holders, as it's a different class.

This seems a slightly odd decision to me.

How ridiculous.

 

[Krokodil]

I would never take the word of a TOC's social media rep as gospel on many subjects, least of all fares. They're often wrong.

 

[AdamWW]

I would never take the word of a TOC's social media rep as gospel on many subjects, least of all fares. They're often wrong.

Very, very true.

But this wasn't an instant response - they said they would go and find out then came back and said that this was the position.

Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I would never take the word of a TOC's social media rep as gospel on many subjects

Does that not throw the whole point of having TOC social media in question?

 

[Krokodil]

Does that not throw the whole point of having TOC social media in question?

I think that there's definitely a point to having them. It's just that they often lack the experience to do their jobs effectively. Whether that's a daft answer given during disruption, or when they go to someone more senior for an answer to a question (as in this case) and it doesn't occur to them to push back and question the response ("are you sure that's what we want to say? It has x flaw")

 

[Caaardiff]

According to the TFWRail Twitter account, first class ticket holders will have to pay the same upgrade fee to use Standard Plus as standard class ticket holders, as it's a different class.

This seems a slightly odd decision to me.

The only possible reason I can think that would be the case is because the ticket holder would be entitled to a refund if they had a First ticket but no mark4 turned up. Standard plus isn't classed as an equal class to First with TFW.
You'd think there would be some discretion from TFW to allow people to use it. But then I suppose if for some random reason First was fully booked, and a 3 car SP 197 subbed for a mk4, you wouldn't fit everyone in.

 

[Bob Price]

197123 on 5Q42 Chester Depot to Crewe South Yard today, ROG operated. Looks like it's still being tested

 

[Diedinium]

Can't tell if it's already been mentioned in this thread or not but recently we've had a briefing about the ERTMS equipped subfleet coming into service (with ERTMS isolated) for increased capacity.

Also, there's an update soon coming to the route clearance which will finally allow 5 car 197s to run all the way from Manchester to Cardiff, among other changes. Set for November at the moment.

 

[ThePeakNed]

Can't tell if it's already been mentioned in this thread or not but recently we've had a briefing about the ERTMS equipped subfleet coming into service (with ERTMS isolated) for increased capacity.

Also, there's an update soon coming to the route clearance which will finally allow 5 car 197s to run all the way from Manchester to Cardiff, among other changes. Set for November at the moment.

Was ushered into the office yesterday to sign it before being shipped off to Craven Arms in a taxi.

It’ll be interesting to see how many actually get used.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Can't tell if it's already been mentioned in this thread or not but recently we've had a briefing about the ERTMS equipped subfleet coming into service (with ERTMS isolated) for increased capacity.

Also, there's an update soon coming to the route clearance which will finally allow 5 car 197s to run all the way from Manchester to Cardiff, among other changes. Set for November at the moment.

Keep your grubby hands off our new trains, ya scrub
On a serious note, I’m surprised it’s not been done sooner!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Can't tell if it's already been mentioned in this thread or not but recently we've had a briefing about the ERTMS equipped subfleet coming into service (with ERTMS isolated) for increased capacity.

Also, there's an update soon coming to the route clearance which will finally allow 5 car 197s to run all the way from Manchester to Cardiff, among other changes. Set for November at the moment.

To me it does make sense to use the ERTMS 197s on non-Cambrian routes while there is a stock shortage. It will get them run in and so more likely to work properly when the big bang switch over from ERTMS 158s on the Cambrian coast happens. That is assuming the overnight/weekend switch over is still the expected route to implementation on the Cambrian coast.

The downside I can see is depots already overloaded with new units being run in (getting over teething problems) so not wanting more to worry about.

 

[craigybagel]

Can't tell if it's already been mentioned in this thread or not but recently we've had a briefing about the ERTMS equipped subfleet coming into service (with ERTMS isolated) for increased capacity.

It was what I was alluding to here:

There are a few different plans being worked on that should free up more units overall. The cascade this brings about should be enough to send more 3 cars to Manchester

but it wasn't public knowledge at that point.

On a serious note, I’m surprised it’s not been done sooner!

In an ideal world it wouldn't have been necessary. And it has required a dedicated training plan to be drawn up (albeit a very short one). But with a shortage of working units across the fleet, it makes sense.

 

[childwallblues]

Will the ERMTS fitted units be restricted to certain routes or will they just end up in placed like West Wales?

 

[Bikeman78]

Will the ERMTS fitted units be restricted to certain routes or will they just end up in placed like West Wales?

If a conversion course is required then I wouldn't count on Carmarthen crew working the ERTMS units. Cardiff crew work between Shrewsbury and Chester so they will most likely have to work them.

 

[craigybagel]

Will the ERMTS fitted units be restricted to certain routes or will they just end up in placed like West Wales?

If a conversion course is required then I wouldn't count on Carmarthen crew working the ERTMS units. Cardiff crew work between Shrewsbury and Chester so they will most likely have to work them.

This isn't the full conversion course, it's more of a quick brief and some paperwork. There are some small differences between the ERTMS and non ERTMS fitted units that drivers need to be aware of, even with ERTMS isolated. It is likely that all drivers that sign 197s will have this briefing.

It's not been confirmed publicly what the plans are for the use of the ERTMS fitted units in the longer term, therefore it can't be confirmed which drivers will have to do the more thorough course required for driving these units on conventionally signaled lines with ERTMS switched on. There are also question marks around certain depots future route cards which will also likely impact on that

 

[Caaardiff]

Surely it wouldn't be that much different to a 158 which has ERTM's and all mainline train crew sign.
I'm surprised they will be using the ERTM's 197's when CAF at Chester already struggle to cope with the 197's they currently have.

 

[craigybagel]

Surely it wouldn't be that much different to a 158 which has ERTM's and all mainline train crew sign.

With ERTMS isolated, no. The biggest difference is there's no analogue speedometer - a digital one appears on the screen, and it defaults to KMH.
Supposedly how they work with ERTMS switched on is going to be very different from the 158s, but nobody has done that training yet.

I'm surprised they will be using the ERTM's 197's when CAF at Chester already struggle to cope with the 197's they currently have.

It's a fair point. They've started using Crewe South Yard for overnight stabling of in service units (and not just long term storage of out of service units), and there's the extra roads at Shrewsbury Abbey Foregate as well, but that doesn't free up a whole lot of space.

But something needed doing - at the end of the day there aren't enough 197s available every day as there should be (partly because of their own faults, and partly because of delays with the new Valleys fleets) and it would be a shame not to use the ERTMS sets if available.

 

[ThePeakNed]

It would be a shame not to use the ERTMS sets if available.

Makes me wonder how many ERTMS ones have been commissioned and can be used just now…

 

[Krokodil]

I'm surprised they will be using the ERTM's 197's when CAF at Chester already struggle to cope with the 197's they currently have.

I suppose that when one of the existing fleet develops a fault, rather than the depot having to spend time fixing it they can just send it to Holyhead for storage and replace it with a fresh ERTMS unit.

 

[Anonymous10]

I suppose that when one of the existing fleet develops a fault, rather than the depot having to spend time fixing it they can just send it to Holyhead for storage and replace it with a fresh ERTMS unit.

Storing them doesn't solve the issue though, eventually they'd all have a fault.

 

[Krokodil]

Storing them doesn't solve the issue though, eventually they'd all have a fault.

It buys you some time though. Ideally enough time for Machynlleth to be ready to accept 197s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Storing them doesn't solve the issue though, eventually they'd all have a fault.

The units these ERTMS 197s are temporarily replacing are creaking with age so its a choice of maintain these new units or maintain and repair the old ones (150s ?). The space is used up one way or another.

I suppose in the big picture (TfW as a whole) the lost capacity is really the 398s sitting around in a new depot (Taffs Well) doing very little. But there are also the 756s mainly sitting around at Barry that could alleviate things in the South Wales valleys now there is almost enough overhead wiring - that seems imminent ?.

 

[Anonymous10]

The units these ERTMS 197s are temporarily replacing are creaking with age so its a choice of maintain these new units or maintain and repair the old ones (150s ?). The space is used up one way or another.

I suppose in the big picture (TfW as a whole) the lost capacity is really the 398s sitting around in a new depot (Taffs Well) doing very little. But there are also the 756s mainly sitting around at Barry that could alleviate things in the South Wales valleys now there is almost enough overhead wiring - that seems imminent ?.

The statement i replied to was that it would allow TFW to send faulty 197s to holyhead which would not solve the issue.

 

[Caaardiff]

The units these ERTMS 197s are temporarily replacing are creaking with age so its a choice of maintain these new units or maintain and repair the old ones (150s ?). The space is used up one way or another.

I suppose in the big picture (TfW as a whole) the lost capacity is really the 398s sitting around in a new depot (Taffs Well) doing very little. But there are also the 756s mainly sitting around at Barry that could alleviate things in the South Wales valleys now there is almost enough overhead wiring - that seems imminent ?.

The old creaking units are maintained by TFW at Canton and Machynlleth (158s), neither of which are able to maintain 197s which are only maintained by CAF at Chester. CAF depot is at capacity with the non-ERTMs units.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The statement i replied to was that it would allow TFW to send faulty 197s to holyhead which would not solve the issue.

Yes. And you are correct. But I can tell the the ancient units (150s) are going to end up out of use anyway and maybe cluttering up sidings.

I do think if the 197s are dropping like flies then rather than Holyhead they should find there way back to CAF at Newport where they were made.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2024 ==

The old creaking units are maintained by TFW at Canton and Machynlleth (158s), neither of which are able to maintain 197s which are only maintained by CAF at Chester. CAF depot is at capacity with the non-ERTMs units.

Scratches head. So are Chester not going to end up with responsibility for all the 197s ?.
I know Machynlleth will be an outstation that is currently busy with 158s.
But does this mean Cardiff Canton will take on 197s when the 158s go ?.

 

[D7672]

Only should be 197038-041 to complete and move to long marston

 

[Krokodil]

Machynlleth will take on its allocation of 197s in due course, but for several reasons it cannot do so yet.

 

[Anonymous10]

Yes. And you are correct. But I can tell the the ancient units (150s) are going to end up out of use anyway and maybe cluttering up sidings.

I do think if the 197s are dropping like flies then rather than Holyhead they should find there way back to CAF at Newport where they were made.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2024 ==


Scratches head. So are Chester not going to end up with responsibility for all the 197s ?.
I know Machynlleth will be an outstation that is currently busy with 158s.
But does this mean Cardiff Canton will take on 197s when the 158s go ?.

Would make the most sense back to manufacturer fix it, it's what you do with other new faulty appliances.