CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[SuperLuke2334]

Are there still only 15 of the 2 carriages accepted into passenger service? No sign of any 3 cars yet?

If they have all of the North Wales-Manchester, Liverpool, Conwy Valley, Crewe-Chester plus now 3 on Cardiff-Holyhead that doesnt leave a lot of capacity for double sets running on the North Wales Coast.

Still the 15 sets. As sd0733 mentioned above, at somepoint this month there should be a batch of units accepted which will improve matters. With running through to Cardiff, I expect that the fleet is very tightly stretched.

3 cars still a while due to ongoing issues. I'm not sure but hoping that some are in the batch to be accepted this month.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are there still only 15 of the 2 carriages accepted into passenger service? No sign of any 3 cars yet?

If they have all of the North Wales-Manchester, Liverpool, Conwy Valley, Crewe-Chester plus now 3 on Cardiff-Holyhead that doesnt leave a lot of capacity for double sets running on the North Wales Coast.

They’re also indirectly covering for the unreliable MK4s (and 175s, which are almost fixed, but only 12 per day diagrammed). Sprinters are having to do a lot of Manchester South Wales, and Holyhead to Cardiff, so 197s are regularly covering for them on Holyhead Birminghams, with a set swap at Chester.

 

[Welshguy1048]

1W95 has been cancelled from Chester to Holyhead because of speed restrictions due to the heat

 

[Jez]

They’re also indirectly covering for the unreliable MK4s (and 175s, which are almost fixed, but only 12 per day diagrammed). Sprinters are having to do a lot of Manchester South Wales, and Holyhead to Cardiff, so 197s are regularly covering for them on Holyhead Birminghams, with a set swap at Chester.

Yes seems TFW still have 3 major issues at the moment with the MK4's and 175s being so unreliable plus the delays with the 197s. Its a bit of a catch 22 at the moment as until enough 197s are available to replace the 175s TFW cant get rid of them and therefore solve the problem with them as they will no longer be needed. Thank goodness they do have the Sprinters, for all we call them they have been amazingly reliable in recent months.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes seems TFW still have 3 major issues at the moment with the MK4's and 175s being so unreliable plus the delays with the 197s. Its a bit of a catch 22 at the moment as until enough 197s are available to replace the 175s TFW cant get rid of them and therefore solve the problem with them as they will no longer be needed. Thank goodness they do have the Sprinters, for all we call them they have been amazingly reliable in recent months.

The Sprinters are also in part having to cover for the 230s, arguably the least reliable of them all. So 197s are helping out on Holyhead Birminghams where they can.

 

[Jez]

The Sprinters are also in part having to cover for the 230s, arguably the least reliable of them all. So 197s are helping out on Holyhead Birminghams where they can.

Yes TFW have not had the best of luck with the introduction of the new fleets. The only one that has had a great success so far is the fast roll out of the 231s. Ive not seen that much improvement in 175s coming back, had a quick look at RTT today and still an abundance of Sprinters on West Wales-Manchester that should be 175. But one did turn up on the 1105 Swanline and a 3 car as well! Thats usually a single 153 or pair of 153s.

Its good they can use them to help with the Holyhead-Birmingham but i expect people are fed up of changing trains at Shrewsbury, it happens often enough for the Cambrian! But making best use of resources it is until the situation can improve.

 

[Topological]

We are saying not the best luck, but it is not luck.

GWR introduced the 80x with new depots, Northern refurbished and created space (such as at Leyland near Preston, sorry I do not know what they call that stabling facility) ahead of the 195s.

There was a real chance to create a facility in Wales that would service the new trains and make jobs in Wales. That was a huge missed opportunity. Therefore the decision has been to use the depot the 175s needed to keep going reliably with an entirely predictable result.

I know this will get criticism, but I think that there are definite missed opportunities in the 197 introduction.

 

[sd0733]

197009 took over 1W94 at Chester before failing at Llanfairpwll, blocking the coast for a couple.of hours and having to be rescued.

Not a massively successful first day seeing as not a single working actually made it from one end to the other.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Looks like 019 on V92 and 004 on V94 today. Let's see how this goes!

 

[SeaKing]

Looks like Unit swaps today 3Z97 & 3Z98 Chester to Carmathen runs.

 

[sd0733]

Looks like Unit swaps today 3Z97 & 3Z98 Chester to Carmathen runs.

Those are planned to run every Tuesday.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Looks like 019 on V92 and 004 on V94 today. Let's see how this goes!

197019 passed the celebratory barrier that is Chester and has departed Shrewsbury. I think we can consider that a success. It's looking set to be the first Holyhead - Cardiff run without a curtailment.

197004 will be swapped with 175108 at Chester. No doubt someone assigned a driver that doesn't sign 197s to that service.
Why would they do that? Are they that short of trained up drivers? If not, why aren't they keeping the ones that can't drive 197s on booked Sprinter/175 services?

 

[Sheridan]

No doubt someone assigned a driver that doesn't sign 197s to that service.
Why would they do that?

They wouldn’t. That’s not how rostering works.

 

[Caaardiff]

197019 passed the celebratory barrier that is Chester and has departed Shrewsbury. I think we can consider that a success. It's looking set to be the first Holyhead - Cardiff run without a curtailment.

197004 will be swapped with 175108 at Chester. No doubt someone assigned a driver that doesn't sign 197s to that service.
Why would they do that? Are they that short of trained up drivers? If not, why aren't they keeping the ones that can't drive 197s on booked Sprinter/175 services?

Depends on the link. It's not easy to swap train crew around on the railway.

 

[175001]

No doubt someone assigned a driver that doesn't sign 197s to that service.

If driver is on a booked job in te link and doesn't sign the traction then that's that.

Unless there's slack, in on the day traincrew availability, i.e spare drivers that do sign the traction, then the easiest thing to do is swap the traction, unless you want a cancelled service...

 

[Jez]

They wouldn’t. That’s not how rostering works.

You would think it would be quite straight forward to roster a driver that is trained on the traction that is actually booked for the service. Is it a Shrewsbury or Cardiff driver or a combination of the two depots that do Chester/Shrewsbury/Cardiff? I think Chester drivers and guards only sign as far as Shrewsbury?

At least it was swapped for a 175 not a Sprinter! (and a 3 carriage as well)

 

[craigybagel]

You would think it would be quite straight forward to roster a driver that is trained on the traction that is actually booked for the service. Is it a Shrewsbury or Cardiff driver or a combination of the two depots that do Chester/Shrewsbury/Cardiff? I think Chester drivers and guards only sign as far as Shrewsbury?

At least it was swapped for a 175 not a Sprinter!

If the driver or guard originally rostered for the service doesn't sign 197s, they're supposed to be taken off the job and replaced by a spare crew member who does - but that's all supposing one is available.

Chester to Shrewsbury can see any combination of drivers and guards from Chester, Shrewsbury, Crewe or Cardiff depots. Shrewsbury to Cardiff is Crewe and Cardiff drivers only, with guards from those two depots plus Shrewsbury.

Bear in mind you don't just need crew available to work the unit down do Cardiff, you need another driver to shunt it at Cardiff, and another full crew to work it back north again a few hours later. If there is a missing link anywhere in this that doesn't sign 197s and can't be covered, then you need a replacement unit.

 

[Jez]

If the driver or guard originally rostered for the service doesn't sign 197s, they're supposed to be taken off the job and replaced by a spare crew member who does - but that's all supposing one is available.

Chester to Shrewsbury can see any combination of drivers and guards from Chester, Shrewsbury, Crewe or Cardiff depots. Shrewsbury to Cardiff is Crewe and Cardiff drivers only, with guards from those two depots plus Shrewsbury.

Bear in mind you don't just need crew available to work the unit down do Cardiff, you need another driver to shunt it at Cardiff, and another full crew to work it back north again a few hours later. If there is a missing link anywhere in this that doesn't sign 197s and can't be covered, then you need a replacement unit.

thanks for explaining. that makes more sense now. I never thought about the shunting at Cardiff. I assumed the driver who brought it down would shunt it out to the sidings (isnt that what happens with Crosscountry ex Nottinghams but they have a very tight turnaround at Cardiff) but I guess they need to take their allocated rest break when they get to Cardiff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2023 ==

There seems to be a bigger shortage than usual of 175s today. I dont check every day but a quick look at RTT shows 1 x 2 car and 5 x 3 car in service today (including that one from Chester-Cardiff covering a 197). The units i found working on RTT today are 175001, 175103, 175105, 175108, 175114, 175116. Feel free to correct me if ive missed any.

 

[craigybagel]

thanks for explaining. that makes more sense now. I never thought about the shunting at Cardiff. I assumed the driver who brought it down would shunt it out to the sidings (isnt that what happens with Crosscountry ex Nottinghams but they have a very tight turnaround at Cardiff) but I guess they need to take their allocated rest break when they get to Cardiff.

Crewe drivers don't sign the shunts at Cardiff; there's not much point as they need the time for their breaks. Usually they'll work back on a different service (often they work down on a Holyhead and back on a Manchester or vice versa). Cardiff drivers obviously do, but usually they're also relieved at Cardiff by another driver for the shunt. Given the turnarounds are longer than XC, often it involves the unit going to Canton.

There's a few drivers at Cardiff during the day who's job consists of ferrying units between the station and Canton.

 

[Envoy]

I finally got to take a ride on a 197 today - on the 2 car that arrived Cardiff at 11.16am. Sitting behind the cab on the bogie, the ride quality was terrible. I moved to a mid section seat and that was better. The seats are too hard and the back section had a slight bulge into my back. I liked the screen giving details of connecting trains at the next station. This is very useful for people transferring trains at places like Newport and Shrewsbury.

The destination on the front of the train is on the ‘offside’ and would have been clearer to passengers had it been on the ‘nearside’ being the side most often with the platform. Many seats had nothing but pillars blocking the view - lets just hope that those passengers who look at screens non stop choose those seats! It would be very galling for tourists be stuck by a pillar whilst seeing someone with a view looking at a screen. Goodness knows why modern trains can’t be built with thin pillars as we have in the Class 170’s and hence more glass area? My 2 photos below indicate the points I have made here.

Lack of engine noise and vibration is welcome.

The train was only 2 coaches and could have done with at least 3. (The ride quality on the Class 231 FLIRT trains is excellent but again, the seats are too hard & not a good shape).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The train was only 2 coaches and could have done with at least 3.

That’s not really an issue as when everything is all settled in nicely they’ll all be 3-5

Thanks for sharing the photos.

 

[Envoy]

That’s not really an issue as when everything is all settled in nicely they’ll all be 3-5

Thanks for sharing the photos.

I know that but considering the number of 197’s delivered, I thought that they could have supplied at least a 3 car train. At Newport, a lot got off but even more got on having done bus transfers from the Bristol area due to the tunnel being closed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I know that but considering the number of 197’s delivered, I thought that they could have supplied at least a 3 car train. At Newport, a lot got off but even more got on having done bus transfers from the Bristol area due to the tunnel being closed.

There are delays to three car acceptance and as we discussed yesterday 197/0s are having to be stretched enormously.

 

[Techniquest]

I know that but considering the number of 197’s delivered, I thought that they could have supplied at least a 3 car train. At Newport, a lot got off but even more got on having done bus transfers from the Bristol area due to the tunnel being closed.

It has been mentioned though that the /1s are not yet in passenger service. Hopefully soon they will be, but it is good to see 197019 made it to Cardiff OK. I am hoping to go and see it shortly on its northbound working, assuming the 1322 Cardiff to Holyhead is the service it does. I guess I'll find out soon, and I've got a favourite spot to get a photo from in the glorious weather

 

[Anonymous10]

I finally got to take a ride on a 197 today - on the 2 car that arrived Cardiff at 11.16am. Sitting behind the cab on the bogie, the ride quality was terrible. I moved to a mid section seat and that was better. The seats are too hard and the back section had a slight bulge into my back. I liked the screen giving details of connecting trains at the next station. This is very useful for people transferring trains at places like Newport and Shrewsbury.

The destination on the front of the train is on the ‘offside’ and would have been clearer to passengers had it been on the ‘nearside’ being the side most often with the platform. Many seats had nothing but pillars blocking the view - lets just hope that those passengers who look at screens non stop choose those seats! It would be very galling for tourists be stuck by a pillar whilst seeing someone with a view looking at a screen. Goodness knows why modern trains can’t be built with thin pillars as we have in the Class 170’s and hence more glass area? My 2 photos below indicate the points I have made here.

The train was only 2 coaches and could have done with at least 3. (The ride quality on the Class 231 FLIRT trains is excellent but again, the seats are too hard & not a good shape).

There's currently no 3 car units in service and the 197s are now stretched quite thin till more enter service.

 

[XAM2175]

Goodness knows why modern trains can’t be built with thin pillars ...

They can be, if the manufacturer chooses to do so or the purchaser asks for it (and pays accordingly). WMR did this with their 196 order, and I presume that TPE did so with the 397s too.

If you don't ask for it though, the manufacturer might just give you what they find most convenient. This is not an exclusively modern thing - you might cast your mind back to BREL's ridiculously bad work in this field next time you're on a 150, or any Mk 3 EMU.

 

[Techniquest]

Photos from earlier's session by the River Wye, next to Canary Bridge, in Hereford. Photo 1 is the railway bridge, followed by 153926+153333 (according to RTT) on the delayed 1411 from Hereford to Cardiff Central and the third photo is 197019 on the 1322 Cardiff Central to Holyhead.

Ever so slightly mis-timed the tapping of the button for the positioning on the bridge, both of the 153s and the 197, but they'll do

 

[Envoy]

Photos from earlier's session by the River Wye, next to Canary Bridge, in Hereford. Photo 1 is the railway bridge, followed by 153926+153333 (according to RTT) on the delayed 1411 from Hereford to Cardiff Central and the third photo is 197019 on the 1322 Cardiff Central to Holyhead.

Ever so slightly mis-timed the tapping of the button for the positioning on the bridge, both of the 153s and the 197, but they'll do

You may find a mode on your phone/camera where you can take rapid shots in quick succession and then choose the one with the train in best position. (On an i-phone press and hold the picture taking button whilst slided to the left OR do this setting:> SETTINGS > CAMERA > Use Volume Up For Burst. (Preserve Settings for Camera Mode if you want this to always work). You then select the best of the multiple shots and delete the rest. (Please do not add to photo tips here as we are off the main topic of the 197’s).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Photos from earlier's session by the River Wye, next to Canary Bridge, in Hereford. Photo 1 is the railway bridge, followed by 153926+153333 (according to RTT) on the delayed 1411 from Hereford to Cardiff Central and the third photo is 197019 on the 1322 Cardiff Central to Holyhead.

Ever so slightly mis-timed the tapping of the button for the positioning on the bridge, both of the 153s and the 197, but they'll do

I love these.

 

[Jez]

Crewe drivers don't sign the shunts at Cardiff; there's not much point as they need the time for their breaks. Usually they'll work back on a different service (often they work down on a Holyhead and back on a Manchester or vice versa). Cardiff drivers obviously do, but usually they're also relieved at Cardiff by another driver for the shunt. Given the turnarounds are longer than XC, often it involves the unit going to Canton.

There's a few drivers at Cardiff during the day who's job consists of ferrying units between the station and Canton.

Yes XC turn around is usually 20 minutes, I watched it a few weeks ago when i got it from Newport and had to wait for my connection at Cardiff. They dont hang around once the guard had checked everyone was off the train, waited for the signa and away it went. I assume the XC shift is generally Birmingham-Cardiff and straight back then they have their break at Birmingham. But anyway this is probabaly going off topic for a 197 thread!

Yes I assumed the train crews would interwork between Holyheads and Manchesters from Cardiff. Also i assume there is always a change of crew at Cardiff even when the train is going further West, even if there is Cardiff guard/driver doing either side of Cardiff on a Carmarthen-Manchester. This will probabaly still happen once the 197s take over fully.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2023 ==

I finally got to take a ride on a 197 today - on the 2 car that arrived Cardiff at 11.16am. Sitting behind the cab on the bogie, the ride quality was terrible. I moved to a mid section seat and that was better. The seats are too hard and the back section had a slight bulge into my back. I liked the screen giving details of connecting trains at the next station. This is very useful for people transferring trains at places like Newport and Shrewsbury.

The destination on the front of the train is on the ‘offside’ and would have been clearer to passengers had it been on the ‘nearside’ being the side most often with the platform. Many seats had nothing but pillars blocking the view - lets just hope that those passengers who look at screens non stop choose those seats! It would be very galling for tourists be stuck by a pillar whilst seeing someone with a view looking at a screen. Goodness knows why modern trains can’t be built with thin pillars as we have in the Class 170’s and hence more glass area? My 2 photos below indicate the points I have made here.

The train was only 2 coaches and could have done with at least 3. (The ride quality on the Class 231 FLIRT trains is excellent but again, the seats are too hard & not a good shape).

Good photos and great to hear your views after first trip on the 197. Its a shame they are two cars only at the moment. Hopefully not too long for 3 cars.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2023 ==

Photos from earlier's session by the River Wye, next to Canary Bridge, in Hereford. Photo 1 is the railway bridge, followed by 153926+153333 (according to RTT) on the delayed 1411 from Hereford to Cardiff Central and the third photo is 197019 on the 1322 Cardiff Central to Holyhead.

Ever so slightly mis-timed the tapping of the button for the positioning on the bridge, both of the 153s and the 197, but they'll do

Great photos. Good to see 197s finally on the Marches!