Cable Thefts, can anything be done?

[J663738]

This morning's cable thefts have caused cancellation of trains between Abercynon and Aberdare. On Monday saw thefts between Caerphilly and Bargoed and last Friday it was Rhymney's turn. It is obviously the exact same gang, going around the Valleys at night, when no trains are running and removing the signal or points cables. Enormous disruption to the local network over the past week.
My question is, are there any solutions, other than running trains 24/7 ? I know smart water, rfid tags etc, but these cable are quickly burnt and the copper is then sold, so its very hard to trace.
I have also heard they use those wildlife cameras with a sim card and they have quick response vehicles during periods where theft is a problem, but again it hard to cover such a large area. Photo below was from a BBC report about railway cable theft and its almost an advert, looking at the amount of copper in that cable. 50m of cable will have an awful lot of copper in it, considering scrap copper is now £6/Kg.
Some REC's use aluminium cables, in areas where theft is likely, these are harder to burn and scrap value is much lower.

 

[skyhigh]

My question is, are there any solutions, other than running trains 24/7 ?

Even that is no solution. I have seen cable stolen within about a 10 mins gap between services. It also happens in broad daylight.

 

[ainsworth74]

My question is, are there any solutions, other than running trains 24/7 ?

Even that wouldn't necessarily help, they sometimes use a passing train to cut the wires (in the dark that is)!

 

[TPO]

There are solutions but they take time, resources and intelligence.

I have heard it said that some of the gangs have people in them who are "orange army" rail temporary labour contract staff. Certainly it would explain how the cables are taken so quickly (they are heavy and laid out in troughing...). Perhaps better management of the labour-only subcontractors is a place to start.

Also needs a focus on where the material is being sold, perhaps some undercover work to identify the dodgy buyers.

Difficult to catch them in the act without systematic intelligence-led policing, supported by Network Rail/TfW. But given the level of vegetation on the lineside in S Wales these days, I would doubt whether there is enough resource to do this (assuming the will is there- which I am not so sure of).

This seems to go in phases- copper price goes up, gangs target copper cables, systematic policing catches gangs and sorts out dudgy buyers, it goes quiet for a bit, "we've solved that" so resources move to different things until the cycle starts again.

TPO

 

[Spartacus]

Replacing them with fibre optic cable where possible's the main solution other than getting intelligence and catching the buers. Even then you can still get cable cuts as they sometimes don't know what they're cutting into before it's too late.

 

[swt_passenger]

This seems to go in phases- copper price goes up, gangs target copper cables, systematic policing catches gangs and sorts out dudgy buyers, it goes quiet for a bit, "we've solved that" so resources move to different things until the cycle starts again.

TPO

Seems each time it happens we also have another thread like this one. A forum search finds 27 threads with Cable Theft in the title.

Fibre optics will usually be mentioned as an obvious solution, but they can’t transmit power to point motors.

 

[Skeletor]

The only real solution is to bury the cables and do away with a trough route. As long as you have dedicated cable routes, theft will always happen.

 

[Horizon22]

Replacing them with fibre optic cable where possible's the main solution other than getting intelligence and catching the buers. Even then you can still get cable cuts as they sometimes don't know what they're cutting into before it's too late.

I was going to say they still make cuts of fibre optic which is still deeply disruptive to the railway but now it’s effectively worthless to the culprits but they don’t know any better and criminals aren’t generally the smartest…

The only real way is better line-side security, tracking of hot-spots and prevention of access to track, which is easier in some places than others.

 

[Trainbike46]

In addition to switching to fibre-optic where possible, switching to aluminium for cables that need to carry power helps, as highlighted above, due to the lower aluminium price.

Long term, the best solution for theft is to make it not worth the risks.

 

[furnessvale]

Concrete poured into the troughing normally slows them down. Unfortunately it also slows down rail operatives when replacing existing cable.

I don't know if fibre optic cable is clearly marked, but highly visible marking on such cable may inform thieves they are wasting their time.

 

[D1511]

If a just stop oil protester can receive 5 years in prison for climbing onto a motorway gantry, surely cable thieves can get similar sentences?
Or perhaps the same level of state suppression isn't necessary for mere cable thieves.......

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If a just stop oil protester can receive 5 years in prison for climbing onto a motorway gantry, surely cable thieves can get similar sentences?
Or perhaps the same level of state suppression isn't necessary for mere cable thieves.......

That's highly visible and easily provable.

There are tens of thousands of miles of railway, by the time someone is on the scene of a cable theft the copper and culprit are long gone.

 

[D1511]

That's highly visible and easily provable.

There are tens of thousands of miles of railway, by the time someone is on the scene of a cable theft the copper and culprit are long gone.

So no-one's ever been arrested ever?
I rather doubt that.....

 

[styles]

Seems each time it happens we also have another thread like this one. A forum search finds 27 threads with Cable Theft in the title.

Fibre optics will usually be mentioned as an obvious solution, but they can’t transmit power to point motors.

There are also the deleted threads.

I once asked what the going rate of stolen railway copper was and it was deleted as it isn't the kind of content the moderators want. I don't disagree with their decision, but just highlighting that there's probably many more threads about this than are actually still visible

 

[GusB]

So no-one's ever been arrested ever?
I rather doubt that.....

If people are caught they'll be prosecuted, but it's catching them in the first place that's the problem.

Here's the first result that came up when I googled "convictions for railway cable theft":

Smith family gang jailed for £1m railway cable theft

Six men, five from the same family, are jailed for conspiracy to steal railway cable.

www.bbc.co.uk

Six men, including five from the same family, have been jailed for conspiracy to steal railway cable.

The gang were responsible for more than 35 thefts across Lincolnshire, Leicestershire, Nottingham and Yorkshire over 11 months in 2013.

Lincoln Crown Court heard how the gang targeted three major rail improvement projects being delivered by Network Rail, and stole signalling cable.

They then stripped the cabling and sold the copper inside.

The men targeted sites where Network Rail were carrying out work to upgrade signalling.

 

[D1511]

If people are caught they'll be prosecuted, but it's catching them in the first place that's the problem.

Here's the first result that came up when I googled "convictions for railway cable theft":

Smith family gang jailed for £1m railway cable theft

Six men, five from the same family, are jailed for conspiracy to steal railway cable.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thanks @GusB

I note the ringleader got a decent sentence of 4 1/2 years, but the accomplices got about a year each, so they'll be out after 6/7 months to spend all the cash they made flogging copper. If everyone involved got three years at least, then it becomes a deterrent. It's not just theft, it's disruption of vital national infrastructure and should have specific jail tariffs defined.

 

[styles]

Thanks @GusB

I note the ringleader got a decent sentence of 4 1/2 years, but the accomplices got about a year each, so they'll be out after 6/7 months to spend all the cash they made flogging copper. If everyone involved got three years at least, then it becomes a deterrent. It's not just theft, it's disruption of vital national infrastructure and should have specific jail tariffs defined.

What's also frustrating is that the true value will never be recovered, because it was never realised. The people selling this metal will have got nowhere near the £1m value of the cabling, because it'll be melted into a lower value product, and of course selling stolen cable usually means going to some underhand metal merchant who won't even pay the going rate.

Add to this the non-material cost of having cables stolen as you allude to, and I'd be surprised if this lot even gained 10% of what it cost Network Rail in having it nicked. Even if they were given a court order to repay the true cost to Network Rail, they wouldn't have the funds to pay it, so it's all just gone.

 

[Trainman40083]

Having been a supplier contract manager, I wondered if the theft was actually worth the effort.. The signalling cables I covered appeared to be mainly rubber insulation (the type that makes it difficult for rats to gnaw through. Would the actual copper cable, when extracted, actually weigh that much? It is individual strands. Possibly easier to target the scrap men. Over time, more lines will have digital signalling, which will see a lot less signalling and power cables

 

[Deepgreen]

Even that wouldn't necessarily help, they sometimes use a passing train to cut the wires (in the dark that is)!

Do you mean that the light of a passing train is used to see where to cut? Surely they have heard of torches?!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2025 ==

Thanks @GusB

I note the ringleader got a decent sentence of 4 1/2 years, but the accomplices got about a year each, so they'll be out after 6/7 months to spend all the cash they made flogging copper. If everyone involved got three years at least, then it becomes a deterrent. It's not just theft, it's disruption of vital national infrastructure and should have specific jail tariffs defined.

I note from the headline that they were only convicted of conspiracy to steal cable, not actual theft, or is the headline misleading (as is often the case, sadly, with the BBC these days)?

 

[Trainman40083]

Do you mean that the light of a passing train is used to see where to cut? Surely they have heard of torches?!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2025 ==


I note from the headline that they were only convicted of conspiracy to steal cable, not actual theft, or is the headline misleading (as is often the case, sadly, with the BBC these days)?

Maybe more the train runs over the cable, to cut it.

 

[ainsworth74]

Do you mean that the light of a passing train is used to see where to cut? Surely they have heard of torches?!

No they'll lay sections of cable over the track and the wheels will cut it quite easily. Not sure how common it is but I've heard about being done, presumably by slightly less prepared gangs! It's in the dark as obviously if a driver saw a cable on the line they'd throw in the emergency brake but in the dark, particularly with older trains with poor headlights, they might not even notice anything untoward.

 

[D1511]

Having been a supplier contract manager, I wondered if the theft was actually worth the effort.. The signalling cables I covered appeared to be mainly rubber insulation (the type that makes it difficult for rats to gnaw through. Would the actual copper cable, when extracted, actually weigh that much? It is individual strands. Possibly easier to target the scrap men. Over time, more lines will have digital signalling, which will see a lot less signalling and power cables

What's also frustrating is that the true value will never be recovered, because it was never realised. The people selling this metal will have got nowhere near the £1m value of the cabling, because it'll be melted into a lower value product, and of course selling stolen cable usually means going to some underhand metal merchant who won't even pay the going rate.

Add to this the non-material cost of having cables stolen as you allude to, and I'd be surprised if this lot even gained 10% of what it cost Network Rail in having it nicked. Even if they were given a court order to repay the true cost to Network Rail, they wouldn't have the funds to pay it, so it's all just gone.

Excellent points, both.
A lot of the time, I'm not actually sure the thieves know what they're stealing or the full consequences of it.
When I worked in Newham, we had problems with thieves stealing the steel wire from the dock edge fencing at Vic & Alb docks, and in Thames Barrier Park. I lived overlooking the park in the big low rise stepped apartment block and would occasionally hear them at work. They'd attach the wire to a vehicle and then use the vehicle to pull it out along a big stretch of fencing. The stuff was worthless, and in the end RoDMA had to put up a sign telling the thieves it wasn't worth nicking. They still tried to steal it.

The 'beyond just theft' designation of rail cable theft would seem to be the key to getting on top of this. If you were to set fire to that mysterious windowless building near Bank that contains all the comms for the Square Mile and crippled the world's financial systems for weeks, it wouldn't just be arson you were charged with. Cable theft is in the same bracket if you ask me.

However, taking another angle, hard wiring everything surely is old tech? I could control all the street lights and traffic signals in a city of 400000 people from my phone via the cloud and 5G if I wanted (but don't obviously!).
I get the power for point motors issue, sure, but why do we still need cable links between signals?

 

[styles]

The CPS has to authorise charging on the basis of the standard of evidence and likelihood of a conviction.

I suspect that they struggle to make charging decisions for more serious offences accounting for indirect costs of the cables going walkies, while the straightforward theft charge or conspiracy charge are pretty straightforward to evidence.

That's just a guess though.

TfL were caught out in court last week for estimating the cost of one of these 'bladerunners' at I think £8k, when in practice when it came to court they could only actually prove around £3k, and the court actually settled on closer to £2k. This actually wasn't a minor detail, as criminal damage value at >£5k is usually handled by a crown court, whereas amounts below £5k usually handled by magistrates. So I think they annoyed the courts on this front. The two defendants were found guilty in any case, but one had no real income or assets and was not ordered to repay a penny as a result.

 

[D1511]

I note from the headline that they were only convicted of conspiracy to steal cable, not actual theft, or is the headline misleading (as is often the case, sadly, with the BBC these days)?

Looks like they weren't actually caught in the act, hence the legal use of conspiracy.

 

[John Webb]

....I get the power for point motors issue, sure, but why do we still need cable links between signals?

Because signals, LED or older lamps, also need power? Usually at 100V AC which is transformed down in the signal head.

 

[styles]

Looks like they weren't actually caught in the act, hence the legal use of conspiracy.

Indeed.

If there's WhatsApp messages where they're discussing their plans to nick cable, that's conspiracy to commit theft.

If there's no DNA or CCTV of them actually swiping the cable, it's hard to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that they nicked it. CPS might decide to not even attempt prosecution for theft if they don't think the evidential test has been met.

 

[alxndr]

The only real solution is to bury the cables and do away with a trough route. As long as you have dedicated cable routes, theft will always happen.

And then you get cut cables the next time a project comes along that requires digging. Even with cable markers and CAT scans before breaking ground things go wrong, and best cast scenario it’s a nightmare to find the owner of a cable and prove it’s redundant, worst case you’ve got a cut cable in a hole holding up a job and affecting services.

I don't know if fibre optic cable is clearly marked, but highly visible marking on such cable may inform thieves they are wasting their time.

Markings tend to wear off but if you know what you’re looking for it’s easy to tell, or at the very least easy to tell which has any significant amount of metal in it (the ones most similar to fibre tend to be the shielded ones where there’s not actually much of any material worth in them per metre). Clearly though at least some of people doing this aren’t experts or we wouldn’t get fibre being cut.

 

[Trainman40083]

I remember getting a call from the Transport Police , Sheffield, I think.. They had arrested some guys on suspicion of stealing railway cable. I say "suspicion", because no railway depot admitted to having any stolen in a reasonable radius of where they were caught. I asked where the people were stopped and what direction they were travelling.. Then got pictures and was able to show where the cable was made, that it had been supplied to our company and who is had passed to. Very soon, the depot that had had it on stock was identified.

 

[JamesT]

Seems each time it happens we also have another thread like this one. A forum search finds 27 threads with Cable Theft in the title.

Fibre optics will usually be mentioned as an obvious solution, but they can’t transmit power to point motors.

What order of magnitude power is required for points? Power over Fibre does exist as a technology, but is relatively low power.

 

[Backroom_boy]

What order of magnitude power is required for points? Power over Fibre does exist as a technology, but is relatively low power.

What, really? But that must be really low power?