Cable Theft.

[Andrew Nelson]

Being stuck and delayed for over two hours due to Cable Theft at Hebden Bridge Yesterday Morning; just wondered what we should do with the thieving little oiks, when they are prosecuted?

I seem to remember, some time ago, Terrorist legislation could be used.

 

[rail-britain]

just wondered what we should do with the thieving little oiks, when they are prosecuted?

Theft is theft, so that is for the courts to decide
Usually a slappy-slap on the wrist
100 hours of community service, picking up refuse and then taking it to the recycling centre for £100 in cash...

A case in Scotland a few years ago where a court sentenced someone to 35 hours community service (reduced from 180 due to physical limits)
They struggled to find something she was capable of, so gave her 35 hours working in a Post Office
Turned out she then stole a further £350 from there!

 

[Bald Rick]

There have been a couple of test cases where miscreants who have stolen signalling cable have been prosecuted for endangering railway safety, as that crime carries a higher sentencing tarriff. To make this stick the prosecutors have to prove that the theft of the cable could, in certain circumstances, cause a wrong side failure, and this has been done.

At the end of the day, the sentences handed down will only be increased as and when a Magistrate, or Government Minister, is stuck for 2 hours on a train due to cable theft.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

A definition of Terrorism, can be described as; "to cause physical, real-world harm or severe disruption of infrastructure"

Any connection?

Let's face it, when Rail Enthusiasts/Photographers are being stopped under Terrorist legislation, why not actually use it against People who are doing REAL HARM to the lives of people in this Country.

 

[142094]

Hebden Bridge seems to be one of the most popular places to nick the cables, probably due to the fact that some sections have minimal fencing and are in a rural area. Was delayed by an hour and a half earlier on in the year due to the same thing at the same location.

 

[strange6]

Hebden Bridge seems to be one of the most popular places to nick the cables, probably due to the fact that some sections have minimal fencing and are in a rural area. Was delayed by an hour and a half earlier on in the year due to the same thing at the same location.

The idiots don't even get that much money for it. And besides, a dealer would know exactly where it had come from so why take the risk? If you ask me, they should be caught and flogged

 

[ralphchadkirk]

A definition of Terrorism, can be described as; "to cause physical, real-world harm or severe disruption of infrastructure"

Any connection?

Let's face it, when Rail Enthusiasts/Photographers are being stopped under Terrorist legislation, why not actually use it against People who are doing REAL HARM to the lives of people in this Country.

Anybody who thinks cable theft is on the same level as terrorism needs their heads checking.

 

[HugePilchard]

a dealer would know exactly where it had come from so why take the risk?

Quite. The Police are warning scrap metal merchants that they're likely to have their collars felt if they can't account for the origins of stuff they've bought, so I'd imagine that most reputable scrap merchants wouldn't go near a coil of dubious cable.

I wonder if the railways have the same issue a former employer had a few years back... lengths of fibre optic cables going missing, presumably to be sold for scrap. Just little hair-thick bits of glass with no metal content. Obviously the thieves had no idea what they were nicking.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Anybody who thinks cable theft is on the same level as terrorism needs their heads checking.

Somebody taking a pic of a Train is serious enough to have the full force of section 44 upon them, so why not.

http://photographernotaterrorist.org/tag/section-44/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allan5819/4691196433/

Somebody taking a photo, has not done anything to cause major disruption to the fabric and infrastructure of this country.

A cable thief has.

In fact, South Africa is considering it to be considered an act of terrorism.

 

[142094]

If a scrap yard wants to get rid of some stolen copper it could easily do so within a matter of hours (especially if it has its own furnace). I think many would have to be stupid enough to leave copper lying around on their site, as it is bound to attract suspicion.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Somebody taking a pic of a Train is serious enough to have the full force of section 44 upon them, so why not.

http://photographernotaterrorist.org/tag/section-44/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allan5819/4691196433/

Somebody taking a photo, has not done anything to cause major disruption to the fabric and infrastructure of this country.

A cable thief has.

In fact, South Africa is considering it to be considered an act of terrorism.

Taking a photograph is not terrorism. Taking some cable is not terrorism. 9/11, 7/7, the Madrid Bombings, the Bombay Shootings - they're terrorism. Not nicking some cable. I very much doubt theft is considered terrorism in South Africa.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Taking a photograph is not terrorism. Taking some cable is not terrorism. 9/11, 7/7, the Madrid Bombings, the Bombay Shootings - they're terrorism. Not nicking some cable. I very much doubt theft is considered terrorism in South Africa.

Wrong again:

http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/sowetan/archive/2008/08/08/cable-theft-is-terrorism-says-inkatha

http://www.ifp.org.za/Archive/Releases/060808apr.htm

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Wrong again:

http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/sowetan/archive/2008/08/08/cable-theft-is-terrorism-says-inkatha

http://www.ifp.org.za/Archive/Releases/060808apr.htm

They have called for it to be terrorist activity, it doesn't say whether or not it is. Read your own sources!!

I quote the South African Police Force Legal Director (bound to know a bit more about it than you): 'To prove that cable theft is a terrorist activity, you would need to prove the motive to sabotage the entire state'. Thus, he opposed it.

There situation is very, very, different to ours. We don't have customers torching trains because of it!!
Using your logic whatever is done in other countries should be done in ours. So we'll have AV (Australia), murdering homosexuals (Uganda) and a hugely litigious culture (USA).

In your words, wrong again!

 

[Andrew Nelson]

They have called for it to be terrorist activity, it doesn't say whether or not it is. Read your own sources!!

There situation is very, very, different to ours. We don't have customers torching trains because of it!!
Using your logic whatever is done in other countries should be done in ours. So we'll have AV (Australia), murdering homosexuals (Uganda) and a hugely litigious culture (USA).

I said, it was being considered in SA, where have you shown this not to be tha case?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So we'll have AV (Australia), Maybe at the next election.
Murdering homosexuals (Uganda) Yes, happens here sometimes unfortunately.
and a hugely litigious culture (USA). Yup, here already.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I said, it was being considered in SA, where have you shown this not to be tha case?

It isn't. This is a legal matter, legally it is not considered terrorism. If it was then they would be prosecuting under their Terrorism legislation. They aren't, so it isn't.

It's my opinion that FPN's should be abolised, and all offences sent to court. Doesn't mean it's the legal opinion of the country.

I quote the Institute for Security Studies: "It would be very difficult to include theft committed for personal financial gain into the broader spectrum of terrorism".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So we'll have AV (Australia), Maybe at the next election.
Murdering homosexuals (Uganda) Yes, happens here sometimes unfortunately.
and a hugely litigious culture (USA). Yup, here already.

AV - we don't know yet.
Uganda - you cannot compare the horrific incidents over there with England! To do so would be ridiculous.
USA - we don't have such a culture as they do, yet. You need to do a bit of fact checking!

 

[Andrew Nelson]

It isn't. This is a legal matter, legally it is not considered terrorism. If it was then they would be prosecuting under their Terrorism legislation. They aren't, so it isn't.

It's my opinion that FPN's should be abolised, and all offences sent to court. Doesn't mean it's the legal opinion of the country.

I quote the Institute for Security Studies: "It would be very difficult to include theft committed for personal financial gain into the broader spectrum of terrorism".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


AV - we don't know yet.
Uganda - you cannot compare the horrific incidents over there with England! To do so would be ridiculous.
USA - we don't have such a culture as they do, yet. You need to do a bit of fact checking!

"AV - we don't know yet." exactly, so poor point.

I never said it was, I said they were considering it, you said they aren't, I proved you wrong.

You need to learn how to read what I actually say, then maybe, you can see I'm correct.

The problem is, that Cable Theft, is second only to terrorism on the railways today, yet thankfully, there have been no terrorist outrages on the railways for many years, and before 7/7 I can't think of one in my lifetime. However, Cable theft bing's chaos every few days some-ware in Yorkshire alone. And I'm sure there are multiple incidents on the network as a whole every day.

Sure, it isn't as serious as a bomb, but, the end product is the same. let's face it, 99.99% of bomb threats are hoaxes. Nobody pretends to steal cable.

The inconvenience from network disruption is far more likely from cable theft than from "Real Terrorism".

 

[ralphchadkirk]

"AV - we don't know yet." exactly, so poor point.

I never said it was, I said they were considering it, you said they aren't, I proved you wrong.

They aren't considering it. It was a proposal. There's no evidence the government considered it. That was from 2008. As nothing has happened, it's safe to say they're not considering or implementing it.

You need to learn how to read what I actually say, then maybe, you can see I'm correct.

Works both ways.

T

he problem is, that Cable Theft, is second only to terrorism on the railways today, yet thankfully, there have been no terrorist outrages on the railways for many years, and before 7/7 I can't think of one in my lifetime.

You can't be older than about 17 then?

However, Cable theft bing's chaos every few days some-ware in Yorkshire alone.

Points failures cause chaos every day somewhere. Your point being?

And I'm sure there are multiple incidents on the network as a whole every day

.
So? There's multiple incidents of DUI every day. Doesn't make that terrorism even though it kills more people than terrorism in this country every day!

Sure, it isn't as serious as a bomb, but, the end product is the same. let's face it, 99.99% of bomb threats are hoaxes. Nobody pretends to steal cable.

Glad we agree it's not as serious as a bomb. Therefore we must agree that it isn't as serious as terrorism. Therefore I am right.
"The end product is the same". I don't remember cable theft destroying three tube trains, a bus, and killing 56 people?

The inconvenience from network disruption is far more likely from cable theft than from "Real Terrorism".

Really? You're honestly saying that cable theft provides more disruption to travel than a terrorist attack?! You need to really have a think about that!

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a crime to nick cable, and prosecutions to be brought. But where the charge fits the crime. It's stupid to put cable theft on par with terrorism.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

They aren't considering it. It was a proposal. There's no evidence the government considered it. That was from 2008. As nothing has happened, it's safe to say they're not considering or implementing it.

Works both ways.

T
You can't be older than about 17 then?

Points failures cause chaos every day somewhere. Your point being?
.
So? There's multiple incidents of DUI every day. Doesn't make that terrorism even though it kills more people than terrorism in this country every day!


Glad we agree it's not as serious as a bomb. Therefore we must agree that it isn't as serious as terrorism. Therefore I am right.
"The end product is the same". I don't remember cable theft destroying three tube trains, a bus, and killing 56 people?


Really? You're honestly saying that cable theft provides more disruption to travel than a terrorist attack?! You need to really have a think about that!

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a crime to nick cable, and prosecutions to be brought. But where the charge fits the crime. It's stupid to put cable theft on par with terrorism.

But, terrorism dosn't hapen every day, thankfully, infact, the last person inconvinienced by actual terrorism, was over 5 years ago.

As for DUI, I lost my wife and son to a drunk driver, so that should be treated as murder.

Nobody makes a person drive while drunk.

Okay, when was the last terrorist atack on the railways, before 7/7. (Even that was a tube train, not Heavy Rail wich was what we have in Yorkshire)

 

[ralphchadkirk]

As for DUI, I lost my wife and son to a drunk driver, so that should be treated as murder.

So you're older than 17 then? For reference though, preceeding 7/7, there was a bomb on an NSE train in 1993 and many others around the IRA's activity time that I can't remember. So there would have been some in your lifetime.

I truly sympathise with your loss, but I'm afraid I disagree on the murder charge. To be murder that person has to have the absolute intention of klling those two people. In other words, the murderer would have to have identified and killed his victims. That cannot be said for DUI. It's DBDD as far as I know.

 

[ukrob]

AJN, you are making yourself look quite silly - read back from the start of the thread - you keep moving the goalposts. You need to base your posts on the law, not what you think the law should be or what happens in other countries.

As above, you need to look up the legal definition of murder - there has to be provable intent, which there is not for a drunk driver hitting someone.

 

[OxtedL]

So anyway, cable theft...






--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There's got to be a short term way round, surely?

Can they not just use a different cheaper metal? Or am I missing something here?

 

[jon0844]

There have been acts of terrorism that haven't killed anyone. The IRA often tried to cause damage to infrastructure without loss of life. Sadly, they didn't always do this very well.

Now, I accept that the IRA was trying to put fear into people. Someone stealing cable isn't doing that, but there is the same end result.

Now calling cable theft terrorism is maybe not appropriate, sure, but there ARE similarities and people should be punished harder for something that clearly does do real harm in terms of disruption.

I think the arguing here is pretty petty as I think both 'sides' are almost in agreement and arguing semantics.

 

[142094]

Let's keep the discussion about terrorism to the General section, either that or PM.

There's got to be a short term way round, surely?

Can they not just use a different cheaper metal? Or am I missing something here?

The new cables that are getting rolled out contain nothing of value, but of course it doesn't mean the thieves know that. Still causes the same problems.

One of the things I keep seeing is either the cables being buried in ballast (nothing new), or the concrete/metal trunking being held together by metal clamps and bolts. Plus NR have started using smartwater as well.

 

[BestWestern]

Presumably the new generation of cabling, which contains little of any value, would be clearly marked 'FIBRE OPTIC' or something similar so as to inform the thieving scum that they are wasting their time?!

I read recently of some fairly harsh prison sentences for some such scum, I think they got 3 or 4 years each which is a reasonable result for once. A new offence to deal with intentional railway disruption, carrying a mandatory custodial sentence, would not only punish cable theft appropriately but also help out in a wide range of other idiots-on-trains situations.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

AJN, you are making yourself look quite silly - read back from the start of the thread - you keep moving the goalposts. You need to base your posts on the law, not what you think the law should be or what happens in other countries.

As above, you need to look up the legal definition of murder - there has to be provable intent, which there is not for a drunk driver hitting someone.

Being stuck and delayed for over two hours due to Cable Theft at Hebden Bridge Yesterday Morning; just wondered what we should do with the thieving little oiks, when they are prosecuted?

I seem to remember, some time ago, Terrorist legislation could be used.

So, goalposts moved not one inch!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you're older than 17 then? For reference though, preceeding 7/7, there was a bomb on an NSE train in 1993 and many others around the IRA's activity time that I can't remember. So there would have been some in your lifetime.

I truly sympathise with your loss, but I'm afraid I disagree on the murder charge. To be murder that person has to have the absolute intention of klling those two people. In other words, the murderer would have to have identified and killed his victims. That cannot be said for DUI. It's DBDD as far as I know.

Can You show me a link to the NSE bomb please?

I don't personally remember it, and can't find a ref on Google.

There was the docklands one around that time, but the railway wasn't the target I don't think, but there was still severe damage and 2 fatalities on the DLR station at Canary Wharf. As for Murder, if you purposely set-out with a dangerous weapon....

 

[GB]

As for Murder, if you purposely set-out with a dangerous weapon....

An object only becomes a weapon once someone decides to use it in such a way as to specifically cause harm or the object is designed or intended to be a weapon (eg a firearm)

 

[the sniper]

Theft is theft, so that is for the courts to decide
Usually a slappy-slap on the wrist
100 hours of community service, picking up refuse and then taking it to the recycling centre for £100 in cash...

Bit anecdotal for my liking. Source? A 1 to 4 year prison sentence seems to be the norm.

Three real cases here: One, two and three.

Of course harsher sentences would be more welcome, but you could say the same for many crimes.

Somebody taking a pic of a Train is serious enough to have the full force of section 44 upon them, so why not.

http://photographernotaterrorist.org/tag/section-44/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allan5819/4691196433/

You do realise no S.44 search took place in the incident you've linked to? They're Northern security guards, they don't have the power to search anyone. They do though enforce the weird and wonderful rules of Blackpool North, a station which is legendary for it's bizarre hatred of photographers hanging around. I wouldn't say it's much to do with terrorism there, just an irrational dislike of photographers and enthusiasts in general.

In fact, South Africa is considering it to be considered an act of terrorism.

I said, it was being considered in SA, where have you shown this not to be tha case?

Erm, if you read the articles you linked to, you'd see that it was being proposed by one party 3 years ago. Can't you find anything more recent, perhaps news as to whether the proposal was taken up as law? Seeing as the South African Police Service and the 'Institute for Security Studies' provided very logical reason why it wouldn't be excepted, I'd be surprised if the SA Parliament had passed the proposal.

Also, just having had a quick look on Wikipedia, the party recommending the idea in both your links (the Inkatha Freedom Party) only got 4.55% of the vote in SA's last election. By comparison, UKIP here got 3.1% of the vote in our last election. If UKIP raised a proposal that we should pull out of the EU, would that realistically mean that the UK is seriously considering pulling out or that it is likely to do so?

The problem is, that Cable Theft, is second only to terrorism on the railways today, yet thankfully, there have been no terrorist outrages on the railways for many years, and before 7/7 I can't think of one in my lifetime. However, Cable theft bing's chaos every few days some-ware in Yorkshire alone. And I'm sure there are multiple incidents on the network as a whole every day.

Sure, it isn't as serious as a bomb, but, the end product is the same. let's face it, 99.99% of bomb threats are hoaxes. Nobody pretends to steal cable.

The inconvenience from network disruption is far more likely from cable theft than from "Real Terrorism".

None of that makes it terrorism though. Just cutting to the basic principal, how are passengers made to feel terrified by cable theft? Annoyed yes, but they're not being terrorised. And there's generally no intent by the thieves beyond wanting to make a couple of hundred quid from a dodgy scrap man.

The punishment for cable theft should certainly be upped, but pinning their actions to terrorism, murder, breach of the peace or any other random piece of law seems pointless to me.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Can You show me a link to the NSE bomb please?

I don't personally remember it, and can't find a ref on Google.

You can't be googling very hard then...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-terrorists-introduce-new-tactic-1470794.html

 

[yorksrob]

I personally think that there should be an offence of something along the lines of "sabbotage of the national infrastructure" which should automatically carry harsher punishment than theft.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I personally think that there should be an offence of something along the lines of "sabbotage of the national infrastructure" which should automatically carry harsher punishment than theft.

I'd go along with that.