C2C upcoming nationalisation.

[RUK]

I personally would prefer there to only be geographical names, rather than any branding.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I personally would prefer there to only be geographical names, rather than any branding.

Whatever it's called is still branding. You could call it Public Rail and that would still be a brand.

 

[Pegpilot]

Strange to relate, but C2C (LTS as was) was supposed to be one of the first 3 TOC's to be franchised in Feb 1996 with SWT and GWR. But the weeks leading up to the franchise award showed up some "interesting" commercial practices by the incumbent (and intended MBO team), resulting in ticket income diversion from LUL to LTS and the contract award was canned, leading to some awkward moments at the press launch that morning. Cant believe it was all three decades ago.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Some “interesting” commercial practises that were commonplace all over NSE. They ceased immediately after the LTS situation blew up.

 

[720144]

I see that they've stuck a GBR sticker on one of the 720s.

c2c train services to be brought into public ownership from this weekend

Government plans will see c2c services running between Fenchurch Street and Shoebury transferred to public ownership.

uk.news.yahoo.com

If I’m right, is that fitted on 720601 ?

 

[Horizon22]

When c2c and Greater Anglia were operated by the same company previously there used to be a preference during engineering works for rail replacement bus services between Billericay/Wickford and Laindon rather than to Newbury Park. Wonder if that will change.

GA regularly run buses Chelmsford/Witham - Billericay during recent closures. Only when everything is completely shut on the GEML from Liv St - Shenfield is Newbury Park used as an option which only happens a few weekends every year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

It was Commitment to Customers that turned my stomach at the time. Sounds so cheesy it’s awful.

I always thought it was "city to coast", but as mentioned it can be interpreted in a few different ways!

 

[danielnez1]

The C2C website has been updated early, the copyright info in the footer refers to "c2c Railway Limited".

 

[sigwinch28]

I am reminded of a message from SWR:

> Although your legal operator is changing, your experience won’t.

I will, however, be happy that there is one less privatised middle man between my fare and the treasury coffers in one hour and eighteen minutes.

 

[stadler]

They have only been nationalised for thirty minutes and C2C have already published their unit diagrams online:

Unit diagrams | c2c Trains to & from London, Southend and Essex | c2c Rail

Explore info on Unit diagrams at c2c Rail. Book c2c trains to & from London, Southend and Essex at c2c-online.co.uk today! Find live train times, ticket sales, UK rail fares, offers, routes, stations & more.

www.c2c-online.co.uk

I guess they probably knew that dozens of people would make FOI requests asking for them so published them in advance.

 

[720144]

They have only been nationalised for thirty minutes and C2C have already published their unit diagrams online:

Unit diagrams | c2c Trains to & from London, Southend and Essex | c2c Rail

Explore info on Unit diagrams at c2c Rail. Book c2c trains to & from London, Southend and Essex at c2c-online.co.uk today! Find live train times, ticket sales, UK rail fares, offers, routes, stations & more.

www.c2c-online.co.uk

I guess they probably knew that dozens of people would make FOI requests asking for them so published them in advance.

According to rtt, there will be the odd 1 720 on the Ockendon diagram today, booked to run (720601). Could that be the unit fitted with the gbr sticker ?

 

[stadler]

According to rtt, there will be the odd 1 720 on the Ockendon diagram today, booked to run (720601). Could that be the unit fitted with the gbr sticker ?

It looks like 720 601 is booked to work the first nationalised C2C service (05:40 Shoeburyness to London Fenchurch Street 06:44) in about 35 minutes. So i think it is quite likely that this is the unit with the stickers. They probably wanted it to be on the first nationalised service.

 

[720144]

It looks like 720 601 is booked to work the first nationalised C2C service (05:40 Shoeburyness to London Fenchurch Street 06:44) in about 35 minutes. So i think it is quite likely that this is the unit with the stickers. They probably wanted it to be on the first nationalised service.

Yes 720601 is the unit with the stickers on. Just seen it at Southend East in what looks like the gbr stickers are fitted on the rear 2 coaches country end.

 

[OneOfThe48]

They have only been nationalised for thirty minutes and C2C have already published their unit diagrams online:

Unit diagrams | c2c Trains to & from London, Southend and Essex | c2c Rail

Explore info on Unit diagrams at c2c Rail. Book c2c trains to & from London, Southend and Essex at c2c-online.co.uk today! Find live train times, ticket sales, UK rail fares, offers, routes, stations & more.

www.c2c-online.co.uk

I guess they probably knew that dozens of people would make FOI requests asking for them so published them in advance.

Gives them more time to answer all the FOI requests for announcement audio files

 

[stadler]

Gives them more time to answer the all the FOI requests for announcement audio files

Those requests are always popular on the first day. Every time a TOC gets nationalised there are always dozens of requests for those. I see that five people have already made requests on WDTK for automated announcements sound files and C2C have only been nationalised for six hours.

 

[dk1]

Those requests are always popular on the first day. Every time a TOC gets nationalised there are always dozens of requests for those. I see that five people have already made requests on WDTK for automated announcements sound files and C2C have only been nationalised for six hours.

Why are people so desperate for this? I don’t get it.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Maybe they will clarify what C2C means after all these years!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Why are people so desperate for this? I don’t get it.

Really useful for Southeastern who don't have Know your train with real time trains.
But in general they're useful to see diagrams, especially with c2c's "new" Class 720s which people may want to hunt for.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Yes 720601 is the unit with the stickers on. Just seen it at Southend East in what looks like the gbr stickers are fitted on the rear 2 coaches country end.

Branding is on all 5 coaches

 

[swt_passenger]

Why are people so desperate for this? I don’t get it.

I also don’t get why any announcement files are ever provided even if they are nationalised. Surely they're likely to be copyrighted by whichever voice actor produced them? I can’t believe the authors of the FOI Act thought this would be the sort of thing the public would ever want.

 

[Bishopstone]

If there’s demand for these audio files, they could be sold to enthusiasts to make a bit of extra cash for the railway.

Albeit I expect, once a price tag was attached, interest would wane…

 

[stadler]

I also don’t get why any announcement files are ever provided even if they are nationalised. Surely they're likely to be copyrighted by whichever voice actor produced them? I can’t believe the authors of the FOI Act thought this would be the sort of thing the public would ever want.

A lot of people are interested in this sort of thing. I think it should be released if they can. It also helps preserve a bit of railway history as lots of old announcements from the past have been lost after being withdrawn. Who owns them depends but it is not normally the voiceover artist. The files are either owned directly by the TOC or by the CIS or PIS supplier.

 

[thomasheywood]

They have only been nationalised for thirty minutes and C2C have already published their unit diagrams online:

Unit diagrams | c2c Trains to & from London, Southend and Essex | c2c Rail

Explore info on Unit diagrams at c2c Rail. Book c2c trains to & from London, Southend and Essex at c2c-online.co.uk today! Find live train times, ticket sales, UK rail fares, offers, routes, stations & more.

www.c2c-online.co.uk

I guess they probably knew that dozens of people would make FOI requests asking for them so published them in advance.

Really these types of vexatious FOI requests should be refused outright, or at least the asker should be charged a fee if they want the info.

 

[dk1]

Really these types of vexatious FOI requests should be refused outright, or at least the asker should be charged a fee if they want the info.

That would almost certainly stop their pestering.

 

[sigwinch28]

Really these types of vexatious FOI requests should be refused outright, or at least the asker should be charged a fee if they want the info.

I don't think it's vexatious for a member of the public to want to know which trains are being run on the tracks that the public have paid for, and at what times, and on what schedule.
Consider the opposite situation: the DfT refuses to hand over timetabling and train movement information to the public. Not because the DfT don't have it, but because they can't be bothered to send the document / think that the public shouldn't get to see government documents.

I hope this is a trend that continues with nationalisation of the various franchises: the DfT proactively providing information it already has about how the publicly-owned railways are run.

 

[bramling]

Really these types of vexatious FOI requests should be refused outright, or at least the asker should be charged a fee if they want the info.

The trouble is, whilst one might consider these request a bit frivolous, the FOI is supposed not to consider what someone’s intent might be when making a request. This is quite an important principle when one considers that some authorities (councils in particular) seem to go to great lengths to find excuses not to release information. Just taking my local council, I doubt I’m alone in considering that I pay a lot of council tax yet if you want them to do anything the response is invariably “we don’t have the budget”. I’m quite curious to see where money goes and how decisions are made.

Value or otherwise, operators should just release the sound files where it can easily be done. The level of obstructiveness seen with Northern in particular is quite revealing in terms of the culture the company seems to operate. In a lot of cases it will merely be a case of getting the files off a shared drive, getting someone in the legal department to do a quick contractual check, and release them. Once done, no more pestering.

It doesn’t float my boat, but I’m pleased someone has managed to find a way of extracting the original class 365 announcements (which as it happens wasn’t done through FOI). Likewise some of the very old 1980s and 1990s station announcements from the Southern Region are IMO great snapshots of an earlier age.

If you’re employed in a public role then there is some level of obligation to try and be helpful to the public. Writing 5 pages of refusal reasons, as Northern do, just comes across as obstructive.

 

[OneOfThe48]

I don't think it's vexatious for a member of the public to want to know which trains are being run on the tracks that the public have paid for, and at what times, and on what schedule.

Carriage working notices, diagrams and announcement files may not be vexatious, but, personally, I would definitely consider them frivolous and, again personally, would exclude that information from being FOI-able.

And people already know when trains will run and to what schedule - it’s called a timetable. The length and class of train is helpful information and should be provided, but unit numbers are not.

 

[bramling]

Carriage working notices, diagrams and announcement files may not be vexatious, but, personally, I would definitely consider them frivolous and, again personally, would exclude that information from being FOI-able.

And people already know when trains will run and to what schedule - it’s called a timetable. The length and class of train is helpful information and should be provided, but unit numbers are not.

Diagrams don’t provide unit numbers. They do provide details of how rolling stock is utilised though. I’d say there is value in that information being in the public domain, and essentially is isn’t available through any other official means.

For practical purposes the average passenger would be able to use this information to choose which services they might wish to use, especially in terms of length, but also potentially choosing certain classes of train over others.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

And people already know when trains will run and to what schedule - it’s called a timetable. The length and class of train is helpful information and should be provided, but unit numbers are not.

Those don't have unit numbers, in fact they have the very information you are saying is helpful.

 

[AlterEgo]

If there’s demand for these audio files, they could be sold to enthusiasts to make a bit of extra cash for the railway.

Albeit I expect, once a price tag was attached, interest would wane…

You can’t sell data which is freely FOIable, that should be obvious.

 

[GordonT]

Carriage working notices, diagrams and announcement files may not be vexatious, but, personally, I would definitely consider them frivolous and, again personally, would exclude that information from being FOI-able.

The pragmatic approach of placing such regularly requested info on the TOCs website and signposting enquiries with the relevant link seems sensible. Otherwise laborious back and forward debates and reviews about what is or is not frivolous are likely to ensue. There are already sensible get-out clauses where the satisfying of particular requests would create an unreasonable administrative time and cost burden.