C2C Fares Simplification

[realemil]

I’m unable to see a thread about this, so I’m making a new one. I received an email from C2C that they’re changing their fares.

Copied straight from the email:

So, what's changing?​

1. Fairer fares: Easy to access, easier to understand​

From 3 December:

• All single c2c journeys will cost half of the equivalent return ticket during both the Peak and Off-Peak.
• Single tickets between two stations on the c2c route will be priced the same, regardless of the journey or direction of travel, if taking place during the same peak.

2. Peak travel times: New evening peak introduced​

In line with the TfL and pay as you go networks, we are moving to a simple two-band Peak and Off-Peak model. Here’s how it will work:

• Evening
  • We are introducing an evening peak between 16:00 - 19:00 on Mondays to Fridays (excluding bank holidays). This applies to all services going into or leaving a London station (Zones 1-6) during this period.
• Morning
  • Our morning peak times have been slightly revised and will now apply to all services departing before 09:30 on Monday to Friday (excludes bank holidays).
• Weekends and bank holidays
  • All weekend and bank holiday travel will be classified as Off-Peak.

3. Tickets: Simple and consistently priced Peak & Off-Peak travel​

• A new Off-Peak Single - offering savings of up to 35%on the current Anytime Single ticket price - is being introduced.
• Existing Anytime Single tickets - ideal if you are making one trip per day in a peak period - will reduce by approximately 25% for customers travelling into or via a London station.
• There will be a price increase on some Anytime Single (Peak) tickets for journeys travelling away from and outside of London.
• If making two trips in a day (one in peak, one off-peak), then two single tickets will be cheaper than the Anytime Day Return.
• Super Off-Peak tickets are being withdrawn from sale.

 

[Krokodil]

More "simplification" that makes it more complicated, I see.

 

[Kite159]

Cue the first trains departing London after 7pm being even busier than the last 'peak' trains.

I can understand PM restrictions away from London but not for services heading into London. Fare rise via the backdoor for those who might want to head into London for an evening out after work. As those people will likely decide to ditch the train and drive to say Upminster where the fare will be cheaper.

 

[MrJeeves]

A fare rise via the backdoor was always going to happen, just like with the LNER simplification.

Don't worry, though, you've still got the January fares increase to look forward to.

 

[ainsworth74]

Evening

• We are introducing an evening peak between 16:00 - 19:00 on Mondays to Fridays (excluding bank holidays). This applies to all services going into or leaving a London station (Zones 1-6) during this period.

Wonder how many fares people can find that are valid on services going into or leaving a London station inside this "evening peak" they're introducing. Bet there's plenty...

 

[OscarH]

I can understand PM restrictions away from London but not for services heading into London

As I recall, there were explicit provisions as part of the plans (at least were supposed to be) for restricting only in one direction in the evening. This is incredibly poor from c2c, and other others who are doing this the quick and dirty way

 

[Bletchleyite]

More "simplification" that makes it more complicated, I see.

It's terribly explained, but it is simple. There are just two levels of walk up single, one of which has peak validity and the other doesn't. You can (unlike LNER! ) buy a return based on one of these types for twice the relevant single if it suits your purpose to do so. Peak means boarding before 0930 and between 1600-1900.

It is hard to imagine a system simpler than that other than abolishing the peak entirely and just having ordinary singles, and ordinary returns at twice those singles.

 

[MrJeeves]

As I recall, there were explicit provisions as part of the plans (at least were supposed to be) for restricting only in one direction in the evening. This is incredibly poor from c2c, and other others who are doing this the quick and dirty way

The staff brief explicitly said from or London station will have evening peak. It's not particularly clear whether that's intended to mean travel from London or both directions to me.

Evening peak times apply 16.00 to 19.00, Monday to Friday, if you are travelling from or via a London station.

 

[OscarH]

The staff brief explicitly said from or London station will have evening peak. It's not particularly clear whether that's intended to mean travel from London or both directions to me.

In actual fact, it does seem to me there is no evening peak towards London - I checked London Terminals to Southend CDR (and the reverse). The restrictions setup for Oval do not even allow for an evening peak into London. I think the press release is incorrectly worded

See this into London: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=SOC&dest=1072&tkt=CDS&period=20231203, compared with this out of London: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=1072&dest=SOC&tkt=CDS&period=20231203. Only the latter has an evening peak

 

[realemil]

A fare rise via the backdoor was always going to happen, just like with the LNER simplification

I would personally say that this isn't an increase, as most singles have decreased in price, and off-peak returns have too decreased.

Some routes have increased, but that is inevitable, however, not by too much, and it's for shorter routes.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

• All single c2c journeys will cost half of the equivalent return ticket during both the Peak and Off-Peak.

Let me guess... there will be an overall rise in the cost of a return journey of about 10% like happened with LNER?


This isn't just affecting c2c either; according to page 4 of the document MrJeeves attached it's affecting all of these:

The new 53 National Rail stations are made up of c2c, Chiltern, Southeastern, South Western Railway and London Northwestern Railway stations and are as follows: • Apsley • Ashford (Surrey) • Basildon • Bat & Ball • Beaconsfield • Benfleet • Berkhamsted • Bletchley • Bricket Wood • Chalkwell • Cheddington • Datchet • Denham • Denham Golf Club • Dunton Green • East Tilbury • Egham • Eynsford • Garston • Gerrards Cross • Hemel Hempstead • High Wycombe • How Wood (Hertfordshire) • Kempton Park • Kings Langley • Laindon • Leigh-on-Sea • Leighton Buzzard • Otford • Park Street • Pitsea • Seer Green & Jordans • Sevenoaks • Shepperton • Shoeburyness • Shoreham (Kent) • Southend Central • Southend East • St Albans Abbey • Staines • Stanford-le-Hope • Sunbury • Sunnymeads • Thorpe Bay • Tilbury Town • Tring • Upper Halliford • Virginia Water • Watford North • West Horndon • Westcliff • Windsor & Eton Riverside • Wraysbury


I'd advise printing the document in case of hassle at the barriers and on board - I can foresee some staff trying to pretend that the off peak Travelcard is affected despite the document clearly stating it isn't.

 

[swt_passenger]

Peak means boarding after 0930 and between 1600-1900.

Before 0930 Shirley?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Before 0930 Shirley?

Yes sorry, edited

 

[miklcct]

View attachment 147402

I would personally say that this isn't an increase, as most singles have decreased in price, and off-peak returns have too decreased.

Some routes have increased, but that is inevitable, however, not by too much, and it's for shorter routes.

Unfortunately most leisure journeys will be affected with an increase, including day returns where the outward is in the evening peak, and all weekend day returns since the super off-peak will be abolished.

 

[realemil]

Let me guess... there will be an overall rise in the cost of a return journey of about 10% like happened with LNER?

As posted in my image in #11, some tickets are going up, yes, but most seem to be staying the same or going down, but this is simply an extract from c2c's email, and not each fare.

 

[mikeb42]

"Simplification" is a potential nightmare for Network Railcard holders on routes like this where off-peak (in a general rather than technical sense) return fares are around the £13 minimum fare.

Fenchurch St<->Shoebury is a journey I make regularly Mon-Fri out early afternoon and back in the (new) evening peak so these changes certainly looked nasty on face value.

The saving grace in this instance is the retention of a CDR. Is there any guarantee this won't be "simplified" away in other cases?

Meanwhile, the Evening Peak thing is woefully explained in the above email. If the data on brfares can be taken as definitive, ".. evening peak between 16:00 - 19:00 (...) applies to all services going into or leaving a London station" is just flat wrong.

 

[Edvid]

This isn't just affecting c2c either; according to page 4 of the document MrJeeves attached it's affecting all of these:

The new 53 National Rail stations are made up of c2c, Chiltern, Southeastern, South Western Railway and London Northwestern Railway stations and are as follows: • Apsley • Ashford (Surrey) • Basildon • Bat & Ball • Beaconsfield • Benfleet • Berkhamsted • Bletchley • Bricket Wood • Chalkwell • Cheddington • Datchet • Denham • Denham Golf Club • Dunton Green • East Tilbury • Egham • Eynsford • Garston • Gerrards Cross • Hemel Hempstead • High Wycombe • How Wood (Hertfordshire) • Kempton Park • Kings Langley • Laindon • Leigh-on-Sea • Leighton Buzzard • Otford • Park Street • Pitsea • Seer Green & Jordans • Sevenoaks • Shepperton • Shoeburyness • Shoreham (Kent) • Southend Central • Southend East • St Albans Abbey • Staines • Stanford-le-Hope • Sunbury • Sunnymeads • Thorpe Bay • Tilbury Town • Tring • Upper Halliford • Virginia Water • Watford North • West Horndon • Westcliff • Windsor & Eton Riverside • Wraysbury

There's also a map of those stations in said document.

 

[miklcct]

"Simplification" is a potential nightmare for Network Railcard holders on routes like this where off-peak (in a general rather than technical sense) return fares are around the £13 minimum fare.

Fenchurch St<->Shoebury is a journey I make regularly Mon-Fri out early afternoon and back in the (new) evening peak so these changes certainly looked nasty on face value.

The saving grace in this instance is the retention of a CDR. Is there any guarantee this won't be "simplified" away in other cases?

Meanwhile, the Evening Peak thing is woefully explained in the above email. If the data on brfares can be taken as definitive, ".. evening peak between 16:00 - 19:00 (...) applies to all services going into or leaving a London station" is just flat wrong.

In this case if the fact that there will be no evening peak for journeys into London is correct, you will benefit from the reduced price of a CDR. The losers will be those making the journey in reverse (i.e. early afternoon into London, evening peak out), or those making the journey later (i.e. evening peak out, late evening back into London).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought Aylesbury Vale Parkway was in too - is it now not?

 

[MrJeeves]

I thought Aylesbury Vale Parkway was in too - is it now not?

Phase 2

 

[ainsworth74]

I think the discussion about the wider contactless scheme probably sits better in the wider Project Oval thread which can be found here. I would ask we try and stick to any c2c specific implications here please

 

[Edvid]

How popular is the 40% discount on c2c-only off-peak returns, given you have to use their app/website at least 3 days in advance to benefit? I know of at least one such off-peak example that's cheaper than the super off-peak equivalent, so there may be some incentive for weekend passengers who buy tickets on the day to change purchase method from 3 December.

Upminster-Shoeburyness with(out) discount before / from 3 December
Off Peak Day Return: £10 (£16.70) / £9 (£15)
Super Off Peak Day Return: N/A (£12.90) / abolished

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just as almost nobody books the small number of Advances that exist in my part of the world (you just walk up and ask for a Travelcard*) I doubt many people use those either.

Booking in advance on most of C2C is a bit akin to booking in advance on Merseyrail, which would just be silly.

* "Return to London including the underground" is what tends to be requested.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The staff brief explicitly said from or London station will have evening peak. It's not particularly clear whether that's intended to mean travel from London or both directions to me.

To give some examples of what's supposed to happen if my understanding is correct:

• Southend Central to Fenchurch Street Single : AM Peak only
• Fenchurch Street to Southend Central Single : AM and PM Peak
• Southend Central to Fenchurch Street Return : AM Peak on the Outward leg, AM and PM Peak on the Return
• Fenchurch Street to Southend Central Return : AM and PM Peak on the Outward leg, AM Peak on the Return
• Southend Central to Gatwick Airport Return : AM and PM Peak in both directions
• Southend Central to Brent Cross West Single via London : AM and PM Peak

 

[lnerazuma]

Massive fare increase for Railcard passenger (Railcard discount couldn't apply in morning commute as now a single from Southend to London is below £12)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Massive fare increase for Railcard passenger (Railcard discount couldn't apply in morning commute as now a single from Southend to London is below £12)

Buy a return then.

Unlike LNER, returns remain available at each of the two price points.

 

[Krokodil]

It's terribly explained, but it is simple. There are just two levels of walk up single, one of which has peak validity and the other doesn't. You can (unlike LNER! ) buy a return based on one of these types for twice the relevant single if it suits your purpose to do so. Peak means boarding before 0930 and between 1600-1900.

It is hard to imagine a system simpler than that other than abolishing the peak entirely and just having ordinary singles, and ordinary returns at twice those singles.

Evening peaks are a pain in the backside, though I realise that having almost all of your passengers for the evening peak service board via a gateline helps with enforcement. There will still be loads buying the cheapest ticket they see on TL and finding it invalid when they want to go back.

 

[miklcct]

To give some examples of what's supposed to happen if my understanding is correct:

• Southend Central to Fenchurch Street Single : AM Peak only
• Fenchurch Street to Southend Central Single : AM and PM Peak
• Southend Central to Fenchurch Street Return : AM Peak on the Outward leg, AM and PM Peak on the Return
• Fenchurch Street to Southend Central Return : AM and PM Peak on the Outward leg, AM Peak on the Return
• Southend Central to Gatwick Airport Return : AM and PM Peak in both directions
• Southend Central to Brent Cross West Single via London : AM and PM Peak

The restriction code in the fare database (single / return)

Chalkwell - Barking: PW / PX
Chalkwell - Fenchurch Street: PW / PX
Chalkwell - Stratford via Romford: PW / PX
Chalkwell - Gospel Oak via Barking: PW / PX
Chalkwell - Hendon via Barking: PW / PX
Chalkwell - Radlett via Barking: PS / PS
Chalkwell - Coulsdon South via London: PW / PX
Chalkwell - Merstham via Barking: PS / PS
Chalkwell - Dartford via Barking: PW / PX
Chalkwell - Swanley via Barking: PW / PX
Chalkwell - Sevenoaks via Barking: PY / PZ
Sevenoaks - Chalkwellvia Barking: PY / PS
Chalkwell - Richmansworth via Barking: PS
Chalkwell - Amersham via Barking: PS
Chalkwell - Harold Wood: PW / PX
Chalkwell - Hatch End via Barking: PW / PX
Chalkwell - Carpenders Park: PS / PS
Chalkwell - Watford Junction: PS / PS
Chalkwell - Bletchley via Barking: PS / PS

According to the short text, PS is for journeys with PM peak in both directions, PW is single to London, PX is return to London, PY is single from London, PZ is return from London.

According to the data
PS = not valid departing between 04:30 - 09:30 and 16:00 - 19:00 anywhere
PW = not valid departing between 04:30 - 09:30 anywhere
PX = not valid departing between 04:30 - 09:30 anywhere outward, not valid departing between 04:30 - 09:30 and 16:00 - 19:00 anywhere return
PY = not valid departing between 04:30 - 09:30 and 16:00 - 19:00 anywhere
PZ = not valid departing between 04:30 - 09:30 and 16:00 - 19:00 anywhere outward, not valid departing between 04:30 - 09:30 anywhere return

However the text of PX and PZ mentions to London (not valid AM peak) and from London (not valid AM and PM peak), which doesn't matches the data, while the text of PS just mentions outward and return not valid both peaks without mentioning London at all

 

[Bletchleyite]

Evening peaks are a pain in the backside, though I realise that having almost all of your passengers for the evening peak service board via a gateline helps with enforcement. There will still be loads buying the cheapest ticket they see on TL and finding it invalid when they want to go back.

Before the three-step the south WCML had a two-step system with evening restrictions on the Off Peak. I did have to excess one once when I got it wrong (done before boarding) but I don't recall mass shouting about it, nor have I heard such from Northernland - moaning about the price yes, but not validity.

The official publication appears to suggest there should be leniency for a couple of months, in any case, to get used to it.

 

[Class800]

Wonder how many fares people can find that are valid on services going into or leaving a London station inside this "evening peak" they're introducing. Bet there's plenty...

But will this be a blanket policy that overrides these flows?