C2C class 720 updates

[colchesterken]

If I were in charge of the railway I would have sent the refurbd 321s to C2C after all, the order was to relieve rush hour crowding get the 357 up to standard for general use then run the 321s as reliefs in the rush hour
Save loads of money keep ticket prices down!. after all the cost of all the shiny new trains must be reflected in running costs
I would prefer a safe, but older train with cheaper fares, on holiday in France the price for internal travel is around 1/2 the cost here
If green travel is that important we must find a way of reducing fares, compare the cost of four train tickets to using the car which is sitting on the drive, so fixed costs have already been incurred

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If I were in charge of the railway I would have sent the refurbd 321s to C2C after all, the order was to relieve rush hour crowding get the 357 up to standard for general use then run the 321s as reliefs in the rush hour
Save loads of money keep ticket prices down!. after all the cost of all the shiny new trains must be reflected in running costs
I would prefer a safe, but older train with cheaper fares, on holiday in France the price for internal travel is around 1/2 the cost here
If green travel is that important we must find a way of reducing fares, compare the cost of four train tickets to using the car which is sitting on the drive, so fixed costs have already been incurred

Best not making sensible suggestions on here anything more than 20 years old is generally classified as knackered and should be replaced by expensive unreliable modern stock.

 

[Wolfie]

If I were in charge of the railway I would have sent the refurbd 321s to C2C after all, the order was to relieve rush hour crowding get the 357 up to standard for general use then run the 321s as reliefs in the rush hour
Save loads of money keep ticket prices down!. after all the cost of all the shiny new trains must be reflected in running costs
I would prefer a safe, but older train with cheaper fares, on holiday in France the price for internal travel is around 1/2 the cost here
If green travel is that important we must find a way of reducing fares, compare the cost of four train tickets to using the car which is sitting on the drive, so fixed costs have already been incurred

You are, without any evidence, making a number of assumptions about the relative leasing costs of the refurbished 321s, which l seem to recall were not particularly reliable, versus new stock. The evidence of the 379s on Greater Anglia or 350/2s on WMT suggest that new isn't always dearer.

 

[Class 170101]

Class 321s would require infrastructure works to be suitable for DOO operation on c2c as I think you will find the methods aren't the same and as such the Class 321s had to be operated with guards the last time they were there.

 

[colchesterken]

I welcome being corrected but I thought all GA stock was DOO south of Colchester, Guards needed to Clacton/Walton/Ipswich seem to take up duties at Colchester

 

[357]

I welcome being corrected but I thought all GA stock was DOO south of Colchester, Guards needed to Clacton/Walton/Ipswich seem to take up duties at Colchester

However the monitors and cameras on c2c are set up for 357s and their viewing angle from the cab. The 321 has a driving position much closer to the windscreen.

As a result, they needed guards last time they were used on the route

 

[Dstock7080]

10car 720.601+720.60x spotted West Ham UP 1035 today, empty testing

 

[railwaytrack]

When are these new C2C 720 trains likely to enter passenger service?

 

[JonathanH]

When are these new C2C 720 trains likely to enter passenger service?

When the units have been accepted for service and sufficient staff have been trained. Given similar units are already in service elsewhere you might expect that they will be in service relatively quickly but it invariably takes time to get staff trained. I don't think there has been anything published about their deployment on the c2c network.

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/20083595.c2c-london-shoebury-line-set-new-720-aventra-trains/

Bosses have remained tight lipped on exactly when the 12 five-carriages trains will be ready for passenger use, stating aims to have them in operation “later this year”.

 

[chris11256]

summer or late summer is what I’ve been told.

 

[43102EMR]

Monday to Wednesday 720602 and 604 are conducting tests on the WCML between Stafford and Wembley, just as the Greater Anglia ones have been doing:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2022 ==

https://twitter.com/andym13/status/1530937099616235523?s=21&t=vwLHtKbVQDzV2tZD7oe0gg

 

[Wyrleybart]

Best not making sensible suggestions on here anything more than 20 years old is generally classified as knackered and should be replaced by expensive unreliable modern stock.

Except in the case of suburban DMUs where you can just keep replating and repainting your 150s, coz DfT can't afford owt else to replace em !!!

 

[swt_passenger]

When the units have been accepted for service and sufficient staff have been trained. Given similar units are already in service elsewhere you might expect that they will be in service relatively quickly but it invariably takes time to get staff trained.

The same could have been said for SWR 701s presumably…

 

[357 LTSRail]

Why would they need dispatch equipment when they have doo cameras

Apologies. I meant DOO screens and appropriate station lighting.

 

[Wivenswold]

Interesting to see that some would rather compliment their 20 year old rolling stock with 30 year old Renatus units.
Having travelled on both 720s and the refurbished 321s, I can tell you that the new trains are far superior in every way. Unusually these days I know but the Renatus refurbishment wasn't great.

It wouldn't surprise me if things move the other way and if the 12 Aventras settle down into service, C2C/GBR may decide to replace the rest of the fleet with them. Even with these new units C2C will soon have one of the oldest fleets of the electric lines in the South East.

 

[357]

Apologies. I meant DOO screens and appropriate station lighting.

Station lighting is already appropriate for DOO, and the trains have screens in the cab.

Again, I'm not aware of any restrictions on 387s or future restrictions on 720s around the loop.

387s can use the existing 12 car stopping boards, and 720 stopping markers have already been installed for 5 and 10 car trains.

 

[357 LTSRail]

Station lighting is already appropriate for DOO, and the trains have screens in the cab.

Again, I'm not aware of any restrictions on 387s or future restrictions on 720s around the loop.

387s can use the existing 12 car stopping boards, and 720 stopping markers have already been installed for 5 and 10 car trains.

The 387s cannot stop on the loop. Their in-cab monitors are not in use. Drivers use the platform screens as they always do.

The 387s do not use the existing 357 stopping boards (last time I checked). They have black "S Car Stop" signs that are at the ends of platforms. So even 8 car 387s (which I occasionally have seen, especially when first introduced) have gone right to the end of the platforms - leaving some passengers rather perplexed! This allows them to get an optimal viewing angle of the platform screens, which naturally is different to the 357s.

The loop line platform extension project is incomplete. I hope c2c run 720s as you are right, in theory they can run on the loop provided the power supply is capable enough. They should be able to use their in-cab screens. But 387s have never run loop line services for a reason. The 720s will be a permanent addition to the fleet so hopefully will be run as such. 10 car 720s on the loop would be excellent for commuters based in Grays, Tilbury, Rainham etc.

 

[357]

The 387s cannot stop on the loop. Their in-cab monitors are not in use. Drivers use the platform screens as they always do.

The 387s do not use the existing 357 stopping boards (last time I checked). They have black "S Car Stop" signs that are at the ends of platforms. So even 8 car 387s (which I occasionally have seen, especially when first introduced) have gone right to the end of the platforms - leaving some passengers rather perplexed! This allows them to get an optimal viewing angle of the platform screens, which naturally is different to the 357s.

The loop line platform extension project is incomplete. I hope c2c run 720s as you are right, in theory they can run on the loop provided the power supply is capable enough. They should be able to use their in-cab screens. But 387s have never run loop line services for a reason. The 720s will be a permanent addition to the fleet so hopefully will be run as such. 10 car 720s on the loop would be excellent for commuters based in Grays, Tilbury, Rainham etc.

The in-cab monitors are most definitely in use on c2c 387s. If the screens in the cab or the cameras on the side are not working then the train is shortformed and the dud unit remains in the depot.

In the absence of a specific 387 stop marker, drivers are instructed to use the 357 stop markers.

387s do not run the loop because they are needed more on the mainline. There is no power supply issue, no restrictions*, and 12 sets can run around the loop (including 387s) ECS.

Regarding your comment about 387 viewing angle and using the platform monitors, you have clearly never sat in the cab or driven a 387. It would be uncomfortable with the platform on the left and downright impossible with a platform on the right. Hence, using the in-cab monitors.

* To be pedantic, they are prohibited with deflated suspension Dagenham Dock Up & Down platforms and Grays Down platform

 

[357 LTSRail]

Regarding your comment about 387 viewing angle and using the platform monitors, you have clearly never sat in the cab or driven a 387. It would be uncomfortable with the platform on the left and downright impossible with a platform on the right. Hence, using the in-cab monitors.

Interesting, are they that different to 375s then? I've sat in those and they seemed perfectly find to use the platform monitors, which SouthEastern use for DOO at some stations, no?

387s do not run the loop because they are needed more on the mainline. There is no power supply issue, no restrictions*, and 12 sets can run around the loop (including 387s) ECS.

I'm well aware, I've been on such trains in the peak when things have gone wrong. My posts relate to their ability to stop at loop line stations. I'm shocked then that during periods where only the dagenham - tilbury part of the network has been open due to engineering, they've never run a 12 car 387 then to alleviate the appalling overcrowding. I hope the Class 720s are used, because there are plenty of times they are needed!

 

[357]

Interesting, are they that different to 375s then? I've sat in those and they seemed perfectly find to use the platform monitors, which SouthEastern use for DOO at some stations, no?


I'm well aware, I've been on such trains in the peak when things have gone wrong. My posts relate to their ability to stop at loop line stations. I'm shocked then that during periods where only the dagenham - tilbury part of the network has been open due to engineering, they've never run a 12 car 387 then to alleviate the appalling overcrowding. I hope the Class 720s are used, because there are plenty of times they are needed!

I don't use southeastern routes so not sure what their arrangement is, however unless platform monitors on right hand side platforms face into the cab at 90 degrees I can't picture how monitors on the RH side could work.

Left hand side isn't such an issue but would still be uncomfortable if positioned the same way they are on c2c platforms, or do they have a guard/platform staff?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Interesting to see that some would rather compliment their 20 year old rolling stock with 30 year old Renatus units.
Having travelled on both 720s and the refurbished 321s, I can tell you that the new trains are far superior in every way. Unusually these days I know but the Renatus refurbishment wasn't great.

I agree completely, it's bananas. I do think being a railway enthusiast must have something to do with it though. Surely those without any interest in trains would never opt to travel on an old 321, or worse - a clapped out 317 - over the modern Aventra.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting to see that some would rather compliment their 20 year old rolling stock with 30 year old Renatus units.
Having travelled on both 720s and the refurbished 321s, I can tell you that the new trains are far superior in every way. Unusually these days I know but the Renatus refurbishment wasn't great.

It wouldn't surprise me if things move the other way and if the 12 Aventras settle down into service, C2C/GBR may decide to replace the rest of the fleet with them. Even with these new units C2C will soon have one of the oldest fleets of the electric lines in the South East.

Having done the same I would take the Renatus any day. The 720 is an abominable cattle truck, the least comfortable train on the network.

And this is not fondness for old kit. I wanted to like them like I do 350s (even /2s) but they are just truly awful. 3+2 in a 24m narrow body just doesn't work.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 28/06 5Q73 37601 720605 0917 Derby Litchurch Lane - Wembley Carriage Sidings
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04665/2022-06-28/detailed

STP 02/07 0915 Derby Litchurch Lane - Wembley Carriage Sidings Caped
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04670/2022-07-02/detailed

STP 09/07 0915 Derby Litchurch Lane - Wembley Carriage Sidings
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03009/2022-07-09/detailed

 

[XCTurbostar]

37611 dragged 720605 back to Derby Litchurch Lane yesterday, any ideas why?

 

[CDM]

Having travelled on both 720s and the refurbished 321s, I can tell you that the new trains are far superior in every way. Unusually these days I know but the Renatus refurbishment wasn't great.

Interior space on the 720's is far inferior to Class 321, due to the narrower bodies. It's ridiculously tight to get through between the 3+2 seats on a 720, compared to the 321 (Renatus or classic). Completely unusable if you're travelling with luggage or (as has been found recently) if there's someone taken ill on the train, requiring paramedic assistance.

Grab handles are also much, much better on 321's than 720s - though you probably wouldn't have noticed that unless you were travelling on a packed train, standing.

Beyond that, it's a case of preferences, really.
Class 720 ride is good for a modern train, but can still be a bit stiff compared to a 321.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interior space on the 720's is far inferior to Class 321, due to the narrower bodies. It's ridiculously tight to get through between the 3+2 seats on a 720, compared to the 321 (Renatus or classic). Completely unusable if you're travelling with luggage or (as has been found recently) if there's someone taken ill on the train, requiring paramedic assistance.

Grab handles are also much, much better on 321's than 720s - though you probably wouldn't have noticed that unless you were travelling on a packed train, standing.

Beyond that, it's a case of preferences, really.
Class 720 ride is good for a modern train, but can still be a bit stiff compared to a 321.

I'm happy with the box, but the interior layout is utterly, utterly dire. Only someone the size of a 12 year old could possibly find it genuinely comfortable when fully occupied.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm happy with the box, but the interior layout is utterly, utterly dire. Only someone the size of a 12 year old could possibly find it genuinely comfortable when fully occupied.

I find it comfortable, and I'm 5''10, which while isn't as tall as you isn't short either.

 

[Class360/1]

I also feel comfy on a 720, and I’m roughly 5”11. Mainly because the seats are better than the fake ironing boards, but I could still easily get around on the class.

I find it comfortable, and I'm 5''10, which while isn't as tall as you isn't short eith

 

[Roger B]

I also feel comfy on a 720, and I’m roughly 5”11. Mainly because the seats are better than the fake ironing boards, but I could still easily get around on the class.

I don't think it's much about height - it's more width that's the issue here: width between seats, and width of seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it's much about height - it's more width that's the issue here: width between seats, and width of seats.

Legroom isn't great either, but if you're 5' 11" and long in the body I can see how you might fit.

The width is the greatest issue - only the skinniest people will fit within one seat width. I didn't measure them but they feel about 1-2" narrower than the 350/2's seats, very similar to those 3+2 schoolkid coaches which I understand to be banned outright from most RRB work.

3+2 seating simply shouldn't ever be done in vehicles longer than 20m as these tend to be too narrow. (There are exceptions - 323s and 165/166 are unusually wide for 23m vehicles). 720s are 2.77m wide and have very thick sidewalls (about 1" thicker than 350s) while 350s are 2.80m. That means about 3" less width, and that is very noticeable.

Due to the very contoured shape of the seats, not fitting in one seat width isn't just an issue if others are sat there. The shape of the curve pushes uncomfortably into your back. So it can't, unlike some other 3+2, be used as comfortable 2+1.