Bye law 18(1) & 18(2)

[Hadders]

Hundreds of train fare evasion cases quashed after unlawful prosecutions

A final batch of 500 cases have been quashed after tens of thousands were declared void last year. It comes after railway companies prosecuted passengers using the controversial single justice procedure - which they weren't allowed to do.

news.sky.com

Any opinions on this and how this may effect cases, in particular mine?

It won't impact your case if you're being charged under the Byelaws for the reasons @AlterEgo stated

 

[JordR]

There's a recent case where the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal fined a solicitor £50,000 for claiming a letter was confidential when it was not. Similarly to this letter, it attempted to impose a duty of confidentiality unilaterally. You'd hope that somewhere in the management of Chiltern there's a solicitor responsible for prosecution and the form of template letters...

 

[Fritz300]

Just a quick one:

I buy my weekly ticket on a Monday morning at a cost of £138.90. Between Wycombe and Marylebone on that Monday morning I lose my ticket. Does that mean when I get to Marylebone I will be subject to a fine/prosecution and I would also have to buy a new weekly ticket?

 

[Watershed]

Just a quick one:

I buy my weekly ticket on a Monday morning at a cost of £138.90. Between Wycombe and Marylebone on that Monday morning I lose my ticket. Does that mean when I get to Marylebone I will be subject to a fine/prosecution and I would also have to buy a new weekly ticket?

You would be in breach of Railway Byelaw 18(2) if you are unable to hand over a ticket for inspection when asked. Any prosecution for such an offence would, one would hope, lead to a conditional or absolute discharge if the season ticket purchase can be proven.

Weekly season tickets cannot be replaced if lost or stolen; this is only offered for monthly or longer season tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just a quick one:

I buy my weekly ticket on a Monday morning at a cost of £138.90. Between Wycombe and Marylebone on that Monday morning I lose my ticket. Does that mean when I get to Marylebone I will be subject to a fine/prosecution and I would also have to buy a new weekly ticket?

It's hard to see how any of this might be relevant given that none of this happened to you according to your account; what is the purpose of asking?

The answers are "it depends" and "yes - if it was a 7 day season, as no duplicates are issued"

 

[Fritz300]

It's hard to see how any of this might be relevant given that none of this happened to you according to your account; what is the purpose of asking?

The answers are "it depends" and "yes - if it was a 7 day season, as no duplicates are issued"

It isn’t relevant to my case but would have a similar outcome. I’m just struggling to understand how a rail company could lawfully and morally fine/prosecute and make you buy another weekly ticket just because you have lost yours even with evidence of purchase. It’s all rather disgusting behaviour. I fully stand with rail companies clamping down on fare evaders but going after easy unfortunately targets certainly isn’t in the interests of the public.

 

[Watershed]

It isn’t relevant to my case but would have a similar outcome. I’m just struggling to understand how a rail company could lawfully and morally fine/prosecute and make you buy another weekly ticket just because you have lost yours even with evidence of purchase. It’s all rather disgusting behaviour. I fully stand with rail companies clamping down on fare evaders but going after easy unfortunately targets certainly isn’t in the interests of the public.

Much though I agree with you morally, it doesn't change the law and doesn't help you with your predicament.

 

[diffident]

Just a thought on the issuance of the ticket. Assuming that the OP could pinpoint pretty much the exact time, date, payment method and place of purchase, down to the booth/machine etc etc... is it possible for the railway to find a record of that ticket sale and provide a duplicate upon request?

You'll need to bear with me here, because I understand the issue in this case - travelling without a valid ticket. I also understand that purchasing a ticket doesn't mean that it was for the intended person. I'm just testing the plausibility that the OP could link the purchased season ticket to their ownership. Given that their evidence bundle will rely on year's of weekly purchases, a pattern can be formed, and that they had indeed purchased a ticket.

I'm not suggesting that the OP takes this as advice on the route to go, I'm simply curious since this whole situation apparently hangs on the OP being unable to produce the ticket. A pattern of similar purchasing behavior, and acting in good faith on the instructions of a railway official, could be enough to tip the balance.

Obviously at this stage, the OP should get a solicitor, and have them argue it out in the courtroom with the facts, and the documentation that they have, rather than representing themselves - that is a daunting thing to do, and generally doesn't end well.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just a thought on the issuance of the ticket. Assuming that the OP could pinpoint pretty much the exact time, date, payment method and place of purchase, down to the booth/machine etc etc... is it possible for the railway to find a record of that ticket sale and provide a duplicate upon request?

You'll need to bear with me here, because I understand the issue in this case - travelling without a valid ticket. I also understand that purchasing a ticket doesn't mean that it was for the intended person. I'm just testing the plausibility that the OP could link the purchased season ticket to their ownership. Given that their evidence bundle will rely on year's of weekly purchases, a pattern can be formed, and that they had indeed purchased a ticket.

The fact a ticket was purchased is not in dispute in this case.

this whole situation apparently hangs on the OP being unable to produce the ticket.

This is also not a fact in dispute. The OP agrees they were unable to produce a valid ticket, but that they have a defence to that, laid out in the Bylaw.

Obviously at this stage, the OP should get a solicitor, and have them argue it out in the courtroom with the facts, and the documentation that they have, rather than representing themselves - that is a daunting thing to do, and generally doesn't end well.

The OP's defence is that they spoke to an authorised person who gave permission; they do not claim that they held a valid ticket. In fact, from what the forum has been told, the case revolves solely around the dispute in fact over whether a witness (whom the OP has not managed to source) gave permission to board.

 

[Falcon1200]

I’m just struggling to understand how a rail company could lawfully and morally fine/prosecute and make you buy another weekly ticket just because you have lost yours even with evidence of purchase.

A supposedly lost ticket could have been given to, or taken by, another person and used, effectively giving them free travel. A policy of allowing people to travel with proof of purchase but not an actual ticket is surely wide open to abuse?

 

[Watershed]

A supposedly lost ticket could have been given to, or taken by, another person and used, effectively giving them free travel. A policy of allowing people to travel with proof of purchase but not an actual ticket is surely wide open to abuse?

Season tickets, even weekly ones, are issued under a photocard number. Only the holder of the corresponding photocard is entitled to travel on it. Therefore they are far from being open to abuse.

 

[robbeech]

is it possible for the railway to find a record of that ticket sale and provide a duplicate upon request?

Yes.
But the railway isn’t going to shoot itself in the foot and there is no regulatory body with the skill set or incentive to make them.


Remember, the “good deed” of giving permission to board was done by a passenger focussed member of railway staff.
The passenger is no longer dealing with any of the passenger focussed rail staff they are dealing with the corporate anti passenger side of the railway that’s spreading across the nation. That side of the railway has no intention of making any attempt to help the passenger as this is not in the railway’s interest. Passengers are merely a hindrance to this side of the railway.

 

[Falcon1200]

Season tickets, even weekly ones, are issued under a photocard number.

A fair point, assuming photocards are always checked along with their respective season! But not applicable to other tickets.

corporate anti passenger side of the railway

Unfortunately, as demonstrated by the numerous threads on here, there are many, many people who attempt to evade paying the correct fare (NOT what happened in this particular case) resulting in the railway having to try and prevent such behaviour.

 

[Watershed]

A fair point, assuming photocards are always checked along with their respective season! But not applicable to other tickets.

We are talking about a season ticket here.

I would suggest we stick to helping the OP with their case; any wider discussion of the policies that train companies should/should not have belongs in a separate thread.

 

[Falcon1200]

I would suggest we stick to helping the OP with their case; any wider discussion of the policies that train companies should/should not have belongs in a separate thread.

Yes, fair enough.