Bye Bye Fidel

[AlterEgo]

Yes. Please list them.

Ghandi.
Michael Collins.
George Washington.
Lech Wałęsa.


Just off the top of my head, some to a greater or lesser extent than others.

 

[ac6000cw]

The revolution was good for the peasant population as their life expectancy was greatly extended by his health reforms but woe betide anyone who criticised the regime.

Yes - most people I managed to have a conversation with thought the revolution was good for Cuba at the time, and at least respected/thanked Fidel for that. But the years of economic mismanagement that followed it (the economy was propped up by the Soviet Union for many years) are also down to Fidel. It's a country with a land area about 80% of England - the main island is 780 miles long - and population of about 11 million (England is about 55 million), so it really ought to be a leading economy in the Caribbean area (if run properly).

Most people who are full of praise for Castro have probably never visited Cuba let alone lived under the regime and experienced the perennial shortages.

Agreed.

 

[Trog]

Ghandi.
Michael Collins.
George Washington.
Lech Wałęsa.

Just off the top of my head, some to a greater or lesser extent than others.

Ghandi a great moral example but never actually held power to be able to give it up, and quickly shot by an extremist on his own side.

Michael Collins very hard to hang on to power when you are shot by dissidents on your own side who disagree with you. Which also happened during the Irish independence process not after.

George Washington almost single handedly caused the seven years war, then led an armed struggle against the taxes needed to pay for it, also a slave owner. Did however give up his army command, before being elected President, and was eventually replaced democratically. Did he however actually have the option of unelected personal power at the end of the War of Independence, or did he just do a good job of the political path laid out for him by history?

Lech Walesa union leader later elected to power, did not lead an armed rebellion so never in a position to decide between personal power and having a democracy.


Quite a mixed bag there but none are really terrorists, who went on to set up a democracy when they could have done a Mugabe instead.

 

[Phil.]

As does, one could argue, the USA

Shocking human rights? When was the last time a U.S. citizen complained publicly about an elected president and got beaten up and jailed for it?
When was the last time a U.S. citizen risked their life to escape from the U.S.?

 

[Butts]

Michael Collins very hard to hang on to power when you are shot by dissidents on your own side who disagree with you. Which also happened during the Irish independence process not after.

Also the initial 1916 uprising was not a popular revolt, it was only in the aftermath when London insisted on a series of executions of some leading participants that it became so.

Thousands of Irishmen were fighting as part of the British Army in WW1 at the time.

 

[Groningen]

You can add Václav Havel for the Czech Republic. And all those brave East Germans that took to the street in 1989.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ghandi a great moral example but never actually held power to be able to give it up, and quickly shot by an extremist on his own side.

Michael Collins very hard to hang on to power when you are shot by dissidents on your own side who disagree with you. Which also happened during the Irish independence process not after.

George Washington almost single handedly caused the seven years war, then led an armed struggle against the taxes needed to pay for it, also a slave owner. Did however give up his army command, before being elected President, and was eventually replaced democratically. Did he however actually have the option of unelected personal power at the end of the War of Independence, or did he just do a good job of the political path laid out for him by history?

Lech Walesa union leader later elected to power, did not lead an armed rebellion so never in a position to decide between personal power and having a democracy.


Quite a mixed bag there but none are really terrorists, who went on to set up a democracy when they could have done a Mugabe instead.

The question was about revolutionaries, not terrorists. Interesting that Michael Collins isn't listed by you as a terrorist, I assume principally because his efforts precipitated a state which has de facto legitimacy. In any case, Collins wasn't the only one involved in the armed struggle at that time. Try Eamon de Valera.
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Also the initial 1916 uprising was not a popular revolt, it was only in the aftermath when London insisted on a series of executions of some leading participants that it became so.

Thousands of Irishmen were fighting as part of the British Army in WW1 at the time.

1916 is but a very small chapter in the Collins story.

 

[Butts]

The question was about revolutionaries, not terrorists. Interesting that Michael Collins isn't listed by you as a terrorist, I assume principally because his efforts precipitated a state which has de facto legitimacy. In any case, Collins wasn't the only one involved in the armed struggle at that time. Try Eamon de Valera.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


1916 is but a very small chapter in the Collins story.

But I feel members should be alerted to what really happened with regard to your absurd assertion re "de facto legitimacy".

I will reiterate the fact the rising was not popular in Dublin or most other parts of Ireland. Did you know about three hundred innocent civilians lost their lives as a result of the actions of a few desperados.

Had the bungling British not executed the 15 ring leaders it would have been interesting to see what would have transpired.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Shocking human rights? When was the last time a U.S. citizen complained publicly about an elected president and got beaten up and jailed for it?
When was the last time a U.S. citizen risked their life to escape from the U.S.?

Last night with the Trump issue

 

[AlterEgo]

But I feel members should be alerted to what really happened with regard to your absurd assertion re "de facto legitimacy".

I will reiterate the fact the rising was not popular in Dublin or most other parts of Ireland. Did you know about three hundred innocent civilians lost their lives as a result of the actions of a few desperados.

Had the bungling British not executed the 15 ring leaders it would have been interesting to see what would have transpired.

Why is it absurd to say that the Irish Free State and the modern day Republic of Ireland aren't de facto legitimate states???

I suggest you read my post again.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

On a tangent, apart from Mandela, are there any other revolutionaries who gave power back to the people after gaining power as I'm struggling to name more than one?

I think two that come to mind are David Ben-Gurion in Israel and Seewoosagur Ramgoolam in Mauritius (in the latter case there was no violent revolution, but a peaceful campaign for independence, but that still seems to me to count as revolutionary - albeit in the peaceful sense).

 

[Trog]

Interesting that Michael Collins isn't listed by you as a terrorist, I assume principally because his efforts precipitated a state which has de facto legitimacy. In any case, Collins wasn't the only one involved in the armed struggle at that time. Try Eamon de Valera.

You assume wrongly I said that I did not think he was a terrorist that set up a democracy instead of holding onto personal power, not that I did not think that he was a terrorist.

 

[AlterEgo]

You assume wrongly I said that I did not think he was a terrorist that set up a democracy instead of holding onto personal power, not that I did not think that he was a terrorist.

No problem, I have misunderstood. The power of a single comma!

 

[Robinson]

I see the "must not criticise the dead" decree issued in April 2013 by worshippers of Margaret Thatcher seems to have been forgotten about...

 

[Darandio]

I see the "must not criticise the dead" decree issued in April 2013 by worshippers of Margaret Thatcher seems to have been forgotten about...

Presumably anyone found guilty is now risking their life trying to escape RailUK by raft?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

No problem, I have misunderstood. The power of a single comma!

Does that make you a comma-ist?

 

[AlterEgo]

Does that make you a comma-ist?

It makes me a little more like Roger Casement, incidentally himself a revolutionary!

http://www.francesalut.com/2012/11/mark-my-words-the-comma-that-sealed-sir-roger-casements-fate.html

 

[backontrack]

I see the "must not criticise the dead" decree issued in April 2013 by worshippers of Margaret Thatcher seems to have been forgotten about...

Very good point.