Bye Bye Fidel

[Butts]

So the 20th Centuries most famous Cigar Afficianado (After Churchill) has gone to join Che and the others to further the revolution in the afterworld.

Was he a great man or a tyrant ?

 

[Groningen]

You mean adiós!

 

[Phil.]

Like all great leaders a bit of both.
Free healthcare at source.
An shaky economy dependant on Russia.
Got rid of a corrupt government.
Took the world to the brink of nuclear war.

 

[Hornet]

Have to admire someone who stuck two fingers up to the American administrations for so long, despite the sanctions and the constant threat of CIA sponsored assassination. If you are looking for tyrants, maybe the people who run Guantanamo Bay in Cuba might be a better bet.

 

[AlterEgo]

Eagerly awaiting Corbyn's comments on this.

 

[burneside]

Have to admire someone who stuck two fingers up to the American administrations for so long, despite the sanctions and the constant threat of CIA sponsored assassination. If you are looking for tyrants, maybe the people who run Guantanamo Bay in Cuba might be a better bet.

Castro murdered thousands of his own people, I don't share your admiration of the man.

 

[Domh245]

Eagerly awaiting Corbyn's comments on this.

Unsurprisingly, rather full of praise for him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38117068

Fidel Castro, who has died aged 90, was a "huge figure in our lives", Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has said.

Mr Corbyn praised the former Cuban president's revolutionary "heroism", his presence on the world stage and Cuba's health and education systems.

Former Labour London mayor Ken Livingstone called Castro an "absolute giant" of the 20th century.

Former Labour MP George Galloway tweeted a picture of himself with Castro, writing: "You were the greatest man I ever met Comandante Fidel. You were the man of the century."

Mr Corbyn, a long-time supporter of the Cuba Solidarity Campaign - which campaigns against the blockade on, and foreign intervention in, Cuba - described Castro as a "huge figure of modern history, national independence and 20th century socialism".

He said: "From building a world-class health and education system, to Cuba's record of international solidarity abroad, Castro's achievements were many.

"For all his flaws, Castro's support for Angola played a crucial role in bringing an end to apartheid in South Africa and he will be remembered both as an internationalist and a champion of social justice."

etc

 

[daodao]

Castro murdered thousands of his own people, I don't share your admiration of the man.

The US President-Elect correctly described him as a "brutal dictator".

 

[Butts]

Castro murdered thousands of his own people, I don't share your admiration of the man.

Mind you his predecessor Batista was no Angel....

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I, for one, am sorry to see Fidel die - I am just glad it was of natural causes (presumably old age) and not because of a sudden illness. Although I would not agree with a number of things he said or did, he did sort out the country's finance somewhat, free healthcare, free education, survived multiple assassination attempts, stayed in power just long enough to really annoy the Americans and, last but not least, was the second biggest operator of Class 47's

 

[Monty]

I, for one, am sorry to see Fidel die - I am just glad it was of natural causes (presumably old age) and not because of a sudden illness. Although I would not agree with a number of things he said or did, he did sort out the country's finance somewhat, free healthcare, free education, survived multiple assassination attempts, stayed in power just long enough to really annoy the Americans and, last but not least, was the second biggest operator of Class 47's

He was still a murdering PoS, granted his predecessor was just as bad that does not absolve him of guilt. Corbyn 's comments just reinforce the fact of why Labour will not win a general election while he is at the helm.

 

[AlterEgo]

He was still a murdering PoS, granted his predecessor was just as bad that does not absolve him of guilt. Corbyn 's comments just reinforce the fact of why Labour will not win a general election while he is at the helm.

Never a truer word said.

 

[Railops]

I, for one, am sorry to see Fidel die - I am just glad it was of natural causes (presumably old age) and not because of a sudden illness. Although I would not agree with a number of things he said or did, he did sort out the country's finance somewhat, free healthcare, free education, survived multiple assassination attempts, stayed in power just long enough to really annoy the Americans and, last but not least, was the second biggest operator of Class 47's

The free healthcare was so good that every time he was ill he sent for doctors from Spain as he didn't trust Cuban hospitals.

Some of his ideas:
Banning any media critical of his government.
Jailing gays and forcing them to undergo re-education courses.
Punishment beatings of gays.
He sent priests to hard labour camps.
Jailing political opponents without trial.
Prosecuted anyone trying to leave the island.
Non-recognition of trade unions.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

The free healthcare was so good that every time he was ill he sent for doctors from Spain as he didn't trust Cuban hospitals.

Some of his ideas:
Banning any media critical of his government.
Jailing gays and forcing them to undergo re-education courses.
Punishment beatings of gays.
He sent priests to hard labour camps.
Jailing political opponents without trial.
Prosecuted anyone trying to leave the island.
Non-recognition of trade unions.

And then, starting in the late 60's and early 70's, things changed

 

[ac6000cw]

And then, starting in the late 60's and early 70's, things changed

Have you been there to Cuba?

I visited it on holiday about 10 years ago (not long before before Fidel Castro stepped down from the presidency).

You couldn't have a conversation with a local about the country or society without them first looking around to check that no one who might report on them was listening or watching (and even then they were very wary) and video recorders were banned (presumably because they might be used to spread dissent, or allow Cubans to get their own view of the outside world).

There were two currencies, one for the tourists and one for the locals (so the locals couldn't buy anything intended for foreigners). There were food shortages, but no incentives for the farmers to grow anything other than what the state told them to, so they carried on ploughing the fields with oxen. Needless to say, there was a considerable 'black market' in all sorts of things (despite doubtless stiff penalties for doing any trading that was not state sanctioned).

Havana is a World Heritage Site, yet many of the old buildings in the historic part of the city were literally crumbling away (as well as acting as slum dwellings in some cases).

A really interesting country, lovely countryside and beaches, historic towns and cities. Great people, but they were being really badly let down economically by a hard-line communist dictatorship. My impression was that the economy could easily have transformed by loosening the control of the state a little, but those in power obviously feared more for their own futures than the day-to-day lives of the people.

(And I haven't got any photos of the - pretty decrepit - Cuban railways because my camcorder got violently stolen in the street. Officially there was no crime in Cuba of course...)

I'll leave you decide if Castro was good or bad for Cuba - just don't think it's some sort of socialist paradise there...

 

[Butts]

Have you been there to Cuba?

I visited it on holiday about 10 years ago (not long before before Fidel Castro stepped down from the presidency).

You couldn't have a conversation with a local about the country or society without them first looking around to check that no one who might report on them was listening or watching (and even then they were very wary) and video recorders were banned (presumably because they might be used to spread dissent, or allow Cubans to get their own view of the outside world).

There were two currencies, one for the tourists and one for the locals (so the locals couldn't buy anything intended for foreigners). There were food shortages, but no incentives for the farmers to grow anything other than what the state told them to, so they carried on ploughing the fields with oxen. Needless to say, there was a considerable 'black market' in all sorts of things (despite doubtless stiff penalties for doing any trading that was not state sanctioned).

Havana is a World Heritage Site, yet many of the old buildings in the historic part of the city were literally crumbling away (as well as acting as slum dwellings in some cases).

A really interesting country, lovely countryside and beaches, historic towns and cities. Great people, but they were being really badly let down economically by a hard-line communist dictatorship. My impression was that the economy could easily have transformed by loosening the control of the state a little, but those in power obviously feared more for their own futures than the day-to-day lives of the people.

(And I haven't got any photos of the - pretty decrepit - Cuban railways because my camcorder got violently stolen in the street. Officially there was no crime in Cuba of course...)

I'll leave you decide if Castro was good or bad for Cuba - just don't think it's some sort of socialist paradise there...

No that's only North Korea

Seriously since Raul his brother took over there have been I believe some more Liberal measures introduced with regard to Private Enterprise.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

No that's only North Korea

Seriously since Raul his brother took over there have been I believe some more Liberal measures introduced with regard to Private Enterprise.

ps who adulterated my Thread Title by changing it to bold ?

Is Private Enterprise the lowest ranking member of the Cuban army?

Yes, since Raul took over there has been an increase in flights to the US, trade restrictions lifted in whole or in part, business springing up... It really is a paradise there

 

[Butts]

Is Private Enterprise the lowest ranking member of the Cuban army?

Yes, since Raul took over there has been an increase in flights to the US, trade restrictions lifted in whole or in part, business springing up... It really is a paradise there

I'm not saying it's a paradise just a little better than it used to be. They lost all the Soviet Era subsidies and more recently Venezuelan Cheap Oil with Chavez pegging it.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Unsurprisingly, rather full of praise for him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38117068

Ken Livingstone and George Galloway were also singing his praises, and once again, Ken Livingstone squeezed in a reference to Hitler.

 

[Gathursty]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter is an appropriate phrase to use for Castro.

On a tangent, apart from Mandela, are there any other revolutionaries who gave power back to the people after gaining power as I'm struggling to name more than one?

 

[AlterEgo]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter is an appropriate phrase to use for Castro.

On a tangent, apart from Mandela, are there any other revolutionaries who gave power back to the people after gaining power as I'm struggling to name more than one?

It depends how you define "giving power back to the people". What does that mean? Do you mean simply holding free and fair elections? Because there are quite a few I can think of.

 

[Phil.]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter is an appropriate phrase to use for Castro.

On a tangent, apart from Mandela, are there any other revolutionaries who gave power back to the people after gaining power as I'm struggling to name more than one?

Was he a freedom fighter? Did he set the people free? Like all dictators he was fine as long as you agreed with him. If you didn't you'd end up in jail pretty sharpish. I don't recall anyone risking their lives to enter the earthly paradise of Cuba. Sure, Cuba under Fidel had great healthcare and education but it had a low standard of living and an oppressive government with shocking human rights.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

an oppressive government with shocking human rights.

As does, one could argue, the USA

 

[J-2739]

As does, one could argue, the USA

I kinda hope you're using it as a hyperbole, but at least the US guarantees its freedoms.

 

[Gathursty]

It depends how you define "giving power back to the people". What does that mean? Do you mean simply holding free and fair elections? Because there are quite a few I can think of.

Yes. Please list them.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I kinda hope you're using it as a hyperbole, but at least the US guarantees its freedoms.

I was indeed...

 

[Gathursty]

Was he a freedom fighter? Did he set the people free? Like all dictators he was fine as long as you agreed with him. If you didn't you'd end up in jail pretty sharpish. I don't recall anyone risking their lives to enter the earthly paradise of Cuba. Sure, Cuba under Fidel had great healthcare and education but it had a low standard of living and an oppressive government with shocking human rights.

Again, the phrase I used is the most appropriate. There are some people who think he is brilliant. There are those who find him as revolting as Batista before him.

I'm on the fence with Castro as his successes are clouded by his failures.

 

[J-2739]

I was indeed...

Freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of religion...

What else could any country want? Did/does Cuba have these freedoms?

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Was he a freedom fighter?

Yes. He fought freedom wherever he found it.

 

[Spamcan81]

Have you been there to Cuba?

I visited it on holiday about 10 years ago (not long before before Fidel Castro stepped down from the presidency).

You couldn't have a conversation with a local about the country or society without them first looking around to check that no one who might report on them was listening or watching (and even then they were very wary) and video recorders were banned (presumably because they might be used to spread dissent, or allow Cubans to get their own view of the outside world).

There were two currencies, one for the tourists and one for the locals (so the locals couldn't buy anything intended for foreigners). There were food shortages, but no incentives for the farmers to grow anything other than what the state told them to, so they carried on ploughing the fields with oxen. Needless to say, there was a considerable 'black market' in all sorts of things (despite doubtless stiff penalties for doing any trading that was not state sanctioned).

Havana is a World Heritage Site, yet many of the old buildings in the historic part of the city were literally crumbling away (as well as acting as slum dwellings in some cases).

A really interesting country, lovely countryside and beaches, historic towns and cities. Great people, but they were being really badly let down economically by a hard-line communist dictatorship. My impression was that the economy could easily have transformed by loosening the control of the state a little, but those in power obviously feared more for their own futures than the day-to-day lives of the people.

(And I haven't got any photos of the - pretty decrepit - Cuban railways because my camcorder got violently stolen in the street. Officially there was no crime in Cuba of course...)

I'll leave you decide if Castro was good or bad for Cuba - just don't think it's some sort of socialist paradise there...

The revolution was good for the peasant population as their life expectancy was greatly extended by his health reforms but woe betide anyone who criticised the regime. Having visited Cuba I can agree with much of what you have said.
Most people who are full of praise for Castro have probably never visited Cuba ket alone lived under the regime and experienced the perennial shortages.