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BVE4 Routes in OpenBVE

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ambidextrous

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Possibly the ultimate noob dumb question:

And I promise, I read the FAQ first.

I've only just stumbled upon openBVE, which is made available for Ubuntu Linux users. I'm hooked, but there don't seem to be many routes available for openBVE. The dumb question is, will BVE4 routes work in openBVE?

TIA
 
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Pumbaa

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Hi,

Short answer: Kind of.
Long answer: Varies by the individual developer. openBVE is much more stringent with the way it deals with the coding for the route. If it doesn't like what it sees, then it won't display it! Simple as!

There are plenty of openBVE routes though ready for downloading. Here are some links if you hadn't already found them:

Network West Midlands
Cross City South
Edinburgh - Aberdeen

If you click on my signature as well, you'll find a whole load of links on the site. I can't be bothered typing them all out though!
 

ambidextrous

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Many thanks. You're a scholar and a gentleman (I assume) and there are very few of us left. :o)

I guess a lot of these sites don't use any search-engine optimization techniques. I've been Googling my brains out for days and never found all-but-one of the links you gave me. Thanks again.

Do you know if anyone has put together a "how-to" for route development in openBVE - one that can be understood by someone who's not a programmer but has better-than-average intelligence? (I answered that for myself: there are links on BVE Exchange. I haven't explored them yet, so I can't say whether or not they meet my criterion, but clearly they exist.)
 
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Pumbaa

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Hmm - easy to follow, not exactly!

This here will link you away to the guides. For openBVE, it is very difficult to understand at times.

The best way to do it is by playing around with route files, editing details and seeing what happens. Its a very long and complicated process, and something that is the bane of every wannabe developers life. If it was easier to develop for, we'd have an extensive plethora of downloads. As it happens, we have increasingly less material being regularly developed.

If you need any help with a particular aspect of route building, then just ask on the Exchange forum. But unfortunately learning the ropes is only something you can do alone.
 

ambidextrous

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I suppose if was easy, everyone would do it. With the exception of beginner-level courses on MS DOS and one on WordPerfect / Lotus 123 / dBase 3 (combined) I took in the 80s, I'm pretty much self-taught. I build my own computers (I bought a pre-built Acer once - big mistake), I've learned how to create detailed vector graphics, to write exceeding complex formulae in Excel (OpenOffice actually, 'cos it's much cheaper), to write simple programmes in Python, to create web-sites and employ JavaScript and I'm coming to terms with regular expressions. Not bad for an old-fart.

I still struggle a bit with Linux: which is REALLY easy once you understand it, but the people who write the documentation are like the maths teachers I had at school. They already understand the subject and make the assumption that everyone reading the document does too.

I still haven't looked at any of the tutorials I found at BVE-Exchange but one piece of advice in the preamble caught my eye: "start small".

That makes sense to me.

Thanks again.
 

Pumbaa

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I still struggle a bit with Linux: which is REALLY easy once you understand it, but the people who write the documentation are like the maths teachers I had at school. They already understand the subject and make the assumption that everyone reading the document does too.

Don't we all! As with any type of coding, it's a doddle once you get into it.

A suggestion - if you're looking to learn how to code only for openBVE, use the BVE4 guide but then match up in the openBVE guide once you've understood the command and how its used. The openBVE guide will then teach you how to refine it and use it in the more stringent way that openBVE forces you to.

If that makes any sense!
 

ambidextrous

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I don't really know enough yet to ask the right questions, but BVE5 is supposedly on the way and, according to a really bad machine translation, is being rewritten rather than being a modification of BVE4 code. It's not clear how much modification a BVE4 route will require to be usable in BVE5, although I did spot a link to a tool to facilitate that process - perhaps the answer is there.

The somewhat cryptic description of the proposed openBVE 2 sounds a bit like "and now for something completely different" but with the regular compliment of buttocks, and sounds like it's E.T.A. should be stated in years rather than months.

Other than the serious difficulties getting BVE4 to run on Windows Vista and the apparent impossibility of running it on Linux (even under Wine or in a virtual box), it seems as though developing for BVE4/5 then tweaking to comply with openBVE might garner the biggest audience.

About Linux: thank God for Ubuntu. Until then it was "By Geeks, for Geeks" The learning curve is still long and shallow, but at least it's trending upward.
 

Pumbaa

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The somewhat cryptic description of the proposed openBVE 2 sounds a bit like "and now for something completely different" but with the regular compliment of buttocks, and sounds like it's E.T.A. should be stated in years rather than months.

Other than the serious difficulties getting BVE4 to run on Windows Vista and the apparent impossibility of running it on Linux (even under Wine or in a virtual box), it seems as though developing for BVE4/5 then tweaking to comply with openBVE might garner the biggest audience.

Reschanger, the creator of openBVE, has since stated her intent for openBVE. It may not be entirely visible for a newbie into the world of BVE Trainsim, but essentially she intends to create her own simulator. openBVE is the first step to that. She has indicated that after the next release, she considers it to be enough her own work to bear a new name.

Essentially, BVE Trainsim is a cabview simulator. Reschanger is moving to an environment based simulator outside the cab. When BVE5 is finished, the two products will be virtually unrelated. It'll be interesting to see which way developers lean - Reschanger has stated she does not intend to make a GUI editor to enable developing to become more easy, and existing developers have shown frustration with just how difficult coding for openBVE is. Some want to wait for BVE5 to work on, but many are happy to accept the more stringent and difficult openBVE coding parameters.

Personally I think a lot of developers and users will stay with BVE - 'purists' and long-time users see the attraction in the cabview and realism on real-life routes. Reschangers will focus on excellent external environments, much more suited to fictional works, like the commercial train simulators we see today. It'll certainly garner a very large gathering of its own.
 

velaro

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Some openBVE developers do spend a lot of energy on making their routes look pretty for observers outside the cab, but that doesn't strike me as the focus of the program. Overall I'd still consider it a cab simulator, and a reasonably realistic one at that; from train physics to safety systems, it is roughly BVE 4's equal (after all, it largely attempts to mimic BVE 4's behavior, and is quite successful at it) and superior in some respects. Of course, we'll have to see how the next version develops, but I've seen no indication that the support for the various operation/in-cab features will be dropped.
 

Anthony_B

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I'm a long established add-on developer for BVE (since late 2000), and I moved across to develop for openBVE soon after the project was started, as BVE Trainsim development seemed to have stalled back then and it had been a dead-end for some time previously for me anyway, and now I'm co-developing the successor to openBVE called "openBVE 2" for now, with reschanger (Michelle), so I thought I'd share some of my thoughts and comments.

Firstly, speaking purely as an add-on developer, I don't find openBVE any more difficult to develop for than BVE Trainsim when it comes to achieving comparable end results in both programs, and actually, thanks to openBVE's stricter parsing and more informative error messages (and better development tools), fixing problems with my add-ons is much easier than it is with BVE Trainsim. The stricter parsing also prevents some wierd and frustrating problems which I experienced with BVE Trainsim, that were a pain to fix because the program didn't always tell me what was wrong, from happening in the first place with openBVE. Loose or lax parsing isn't necessarily a good thing, especially when it comes to the quality and reliability of add-ons.

I think the issue here is rather one of how the documentation is presented and explained; openBVE's documentation is very comprehensive and valuable to the proficient developer, but I also agree that it's too daunting for the beginner, so I'm hoping to do my bit to help create more accessible documentation for novices when openBVE's successor is ready. The other issue I think, is how much time one has available to make use of some of the features which openBVE provides beyond BVE Trainsim's capabilities (such as being able to look backwards along the route as well as forwards), which makes developing for openBVE seem more difficult, simply because there's a bit more work to do if one chooses to make use of those capabilities.

I moved from BVE Trainsim to openBVE, largely because I found the former to be far too limited in terms of it's 3D rendering capabilities and performance, which could have been somewhat better with the hardware on which it was running, although I don't think this will be an issue with BVE 5. Another reason, is because I wasn't able to properly communicate with BVE Trainsim's developer (mackoy) to request fixes, enhancements or new features, which might have helped BVE Trainsim to realise more of it's potential long ago (and I tried), or indeed my own potential as a route developer. Likely the language barrier was the most significant factor, but maybe for whatever reason, mackoy wasn't interested, or wasn't able to implement what was suggested, I don't know. I haven't found any such problem with openBVE, and as it's an open source project, it's also less likely to be abandoned like it seemed that BVE Trainsim development had been for some time - partly why the openBVE project was started in the first place. Mackoy created a wonderful simulator despite my criticisms and frustrations, but in my view it never reached it's full potential, and almost became history because hardware, drivers and operating systems moved on without BVE Trainsim being developed to move on with them; time will tell whether the same thing will happen again with BVE Trainsim in future, and it's less likely to happen with openBVE as it's open source and uses OpenGL rather than DirectX.

With openBVE, Michelle also single-handedly accomplished some rather incredible programming achievements within the space of only a year, namely replicating much of BVE Trainsim's functionality based on observation, experimentation, study and self-written code alone, while adding new features developers had wished for but which mackoy seemed unlikely to ever give at the time, all without a single line of BVE Trainsim's source code to refer to. That's amazing. For me, being able to communicate with openBVE's developer and work collaboratively to improve the program, as well as knowing that her remarkable software architectural design and programming abilities, and open source/cross platform philosophy are what underpin openBVE and openBVE 2, all helps to make the choice between openBVE and BVE Trainsim a no-brainer for me, no matter how popular BVE 5 turns out to be.

Speaking instead as a co-developer of openBVE 2 now, yes, we're designing the program to allow for more immersive environmental simulation, expansive scenery, and time-of-day along with meteorological effects (partly because it's more realistic this way, and also not least because this gives far more flexibility in terms of what you can do with the program, whether it's simulating trains or something else). However, in-the-cab realism is a high priority, along with facilitating the simulation of railway operations and procedures, and hence realistic safety and braking systems, electric and diesel traction simulation, power supply, signalling, physics, and so-on, which are the kinds of areas where the mass-market commercial simulation games are more likely to fall down because they don't appeal to the casual gamer.

The new program should also be able to load and run anything which is designed to work in openBVE, and likely many BVE Trainsim add-ons too, and there are plenty (please see http://wiki.bve-routes.com/index.php/Category:Routes), while having much more potential for future expansion and development, as any programmer will be able to write a plugin which adds functionality, such as in-game communications with the signaller, country specific implementations of safety systems, and so-on. The new program will also allow for consists, coupling operations, and opposing traffic, and some initial work to facilitate this is being worked on at the moment, which many people have long wanted to see.

I agree there is an issue where a lack of GUI route and object editors in particular are concerned, and we are hoping that the open source nature of the project, combined with it's plugin based architecture and API, will encourage other programmers to come forward and help the project by developing tools for easier content creation, or plugins for loading existing file formats created by tools like popular 3D modelling software. This is a longer term aim, although it's just starting to happen already, and ultimately, the difficulty of developing will become rather less of an issue with the new simulator, while it will still be able to do what openBVE and BVE Trainsim can do so well, namely simulate driving and operating a train, as well as whatever else one's imagination and skill allows for. It will also have the advantage of being able to simplify the installation of new add-ons if developers want to make use of the planned in-game content management system.

In the end, the train simulation community is going to have more choice, and developers will have more options for how to create routes, trains and objects, and users will have more flexibility in how these can be viewed or used. There will hopefully be more innovation as a result, and those who don't want to use Microsoft operating systems won't be left out, either. I will also be interested in seeing which way openBVE and/or BVE Trainsim add-on developers go - some will stick with BVE Trainsim I have no doubt; I hope those who have adopted openBVE more fully will move across from openBVE to the new program of course, but some might even go back to BVE 5 when it's released, although with suitable plugins, openBVE 2 could load BVE 5 add-ons in future as well. Once we have more file formats supported via plugins, and tools for content creation in the longer term, we might have a new generation of developers and add-ons instead. It will be interesting to see what happens.
 
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Pumbaa

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Thanks for that Anthony - good insight into whats going on.

I will also be interested in seeing which way openBVE and/or BVE Trainsim add-on developers go - some will stick with BVE Trainsim I have no doubt; I hope those who have adopted openBVE more fully will move across from openBVE to the new program of course, but some might even go back to BVE 5 when it's released, although with suitable plugins, openBVE 2 could load BVE 5 add-ons in future as well. Once we have more file formats supported via plugins, and tools for content creation in the longer term, we might have a new generation of developers and add-ons instead. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I think you can already count the existing developers into each camp; some have made their intent clear, and some indicate quite strongly with the way that their work is leading them.

I think your last sentence sums it up very well; it will be highly interesting to see what happens and I look forward to all the openBVE developments :)
 
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