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Buying tickets from your guard

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ChrisTheRef

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From a station ticket sales point of view, if I'm at Liverpool Central and a passenger asks me for a single to Ormskirk, I'll sell them a Merseyrail Day Saver, as it's the cheapest ticket to get them from their origin to their destination.
However, if someone asks me for a single to Liverpool S Parkway, I'll just sell them a standard ticket, despite knowing that if I start the ticket at Wavertree Tech Park, it's still valid, but cheaper.
If every passenger knows every loophole, all the loopholes will disappear!
 
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When I was a passenger guard at Huddersfield we had the excess ticket book, and when on paytrains we used the Almex ticket machine, and a £5 float of loose change.
When on a PT we used the Almex Machine to issue little paper tickets. The maximum fare from Huddersfield to Sheffield Midland was £1.20p single. If a passenger was going past Sheffield you could write out an excess ticket with the journey details written on it and the price paid.
The price to pay was in the BR Fares Manual.
At the end of the day, you could cash in quite a large amount of cash in coins and notes.
The Almex machines were battered after many years of use, and could not be counted on to be accurate.
At the end of the shift you paid the brass into the booking office, handed the clerk the machine, and that was that, and the right amount of cash from youre excess book tickets.
If working the 12:10hrs from Huddersfield to Clayton West and 12:50hrs return during the week you might take £3.20p on a very good day. That journey cost 52p single.
 
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ashworth

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A slight change of subject here but still concerns buying tickets from guard.
I will be making a fairly long distance return journey in a few weeks time from my local unstaffed station. This will involve split tickets to reduce the cost. I would normally for the easiest buy these online before traveling but would I be better buying these from the guard on the day.
Do EMT guards get commission and would it be recorded as revenue generated on the train from my local line to help just in a little way to show its viability.
 
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Anvil1984

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Right in the case of buying group tickets either individually on on a single ticket. It is possible but rare as we tend to keep the tickets on individual tickets due to ticket barriers etc.

To Ashworth, a case of YES on all points I believe, EMT guards will get comnmision and it will be recorded as an entry / exit from your orgin station, and we can do split tickets if you ask nicely
 

yorkie

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If boarding at an unstaffed station, the guard effectively is your ticket office so you should be able to ask for whatever you want! However whether the guard is obliged to sell tickets beyond his/her train I do not know...

For example, a passenger wants tickets from Cottingham to Brough, Brough to Huddersfield, Huddersfield to Manchester. Can the guard say "I'll just issue the first, you can get the rest later?" possibly. But if so, this does create a risk because if the passenger then has only, say, 5 minutes at Hull to change, and the next guard didn't get through to them before brough, that guard then may think you just asked for the Brough ticket only and insist on selling the next ticket at the full Anytime rate. This is hypothetical; I don't know the answer, but that would be my concern.
 

spacehopper

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You ask for it I'll sell it!

(if it is a valid ticket you are asking for plus condition 2 will apply)

Chatting to other guards and through experience you will pick up the fiddles. Those asking for the fiddles know what they are doing and if you cock it up will often produce an old ticket to show you what they are asking for.

You'd be surprised how quickly punters pick up on what are the best tickets to ask for the journey they are making. For example buying an over distance return so they can have an open return when the actual journey they are making only has SDR.

I'm the sort of guard that when it's quiet will have a mess around on avantix. You learn that for some fares you have to press a certain button to bring them up. Even if you type in what your selling the fare won't come up you have to press filter to bring it up.

I'll always sell them the cheapest ticket if the most straight forward one is more expensive. Other week had a chap traveling on crosscountry did him 5 split tickets and saved him nearly £30!

But you do get the "excuse me I asked for a single"- thinking your an idiot when you tell them the cheapest ticket is a return.
 

Flamingo

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I'll sell a split if asked for it first, eg "I've started from Llanelli, can I have a Llanelli-Swansea, and a Swansea-Cardiff", then that's what I'll sell.

If the conversation is "Can I have a ticket from Swansea?" "How did you get through the barriers?" "I came off the Llanelli train", then I sell a Llanelli-Cardiff ticket, even if they then say they want to split them.

Booking office or not at the starting station, the passenger has to ask for it from that station initially. If not, they are attempting fare evasion, and I consider that I don't owe them any favours.
 

yorkie

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I'll sell a split if asked for it first, eg "I've started from Llanelli, can I have a Llanelli-Swansea, and a Swansea-Cardiff", then that's what I'll sell.

If the conversation is "Can I have a ticket from Swansea?" "How did you get through the barriers?" "I came off the Llanelli train", then I sell a Llanelli-Cardiff ticket, even if they then say they want to split them.

Booking office or not at the starting station, the passenger has to ask for it from that station initially. If not, they are attempting fare evasion, and I consider that I don't owe them any favours.
Technically you don't owe anyone any favours, and offering a split is a favour, it's great that some guards offer it but I would never criticise a guard for not offering it, as you are not obliged to.

That said, if a customer asks for it, then you have to sell it.

Though if they are attempting fare evasion by lying about their origin, then you do have the option of reporting them for prosecution instead of selling (a) ticket(s), I believe (depending on the TOC policy on that). If you are saying someone initially lies about their origin and then when sussed, admits it and asks for a split but you want to charge them for the more expensive ticket, you could in theory say "I will sell you the through ticket, with no splits, or alternatively if you do not wish to accept this, I could report you for fare evasion for lying about your origin" however I am unsure if this is good practice or whether the TOC concerned would allow this (it could be seen as blackmail?). It may be on dodgy ground, I don't know.
 

clagmonster

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I would like to see a lot of these cases of passengers lying about their origin prosecuted for fare evasion, but I the trouble is that presumably the only evidence would be the guard's testimony that the passenger did indeed ask for a ticket from Swansea rather the Llanelli, which may not be enough to obtain a conviction. I'm not a legal proffessional, so I don't know how much evidence would be needed to convict.
 

alloneword100

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Another tangent on the same topic, since we seem to have the right people here to answer: this is a genuine query and not an implied criticism.

Most times when the guards come through on the commuter routes I use they will be checking tickets and selling them to those who haven't got them. Sometimes, however, they come through at quite a lick just asking whether anyone 'needs' tickets. They will also often emphasise that they can sell tickets for tomorrow if it is the evening, or renew weekly tickets.

I just wondered how TOCs viewed this? They could be pleased, because the guards are helping commuters and reducing the queues at ticket offices the following morning, but I could also imagine them saying that the idea of giving the guards commission for seeling tickets was in exchange for them checking that everyone had one. The routes concerned would mostly be stations with ticket gates or manned barriers, incidentally.
 

Failed Unit

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You also get the queues muddying the water. You are Lincoln central and want to go to Grimsby town. You arrive 20 minutes before the train is due. You get held up in the queue as people ahead are buying complex tickets (emt closed the advanced ticket office so all tickets must be bought from the same sellers) in that situation I would expect the cheapest ticket to be sold on the train. Emt staff never never argued otherwise and the barrier staff let you through. Bad PR if you need to wait 2 hours+ because you can't buy a ticket or get charged more than you need on the train.
 

island

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The rules do say that queues aren't supposed to exceed 5 minutes and there should be a way of informing guards when queues have built up at stations. Some TOCs issue BlackBerrys for this.
 

WestCoast

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You also get the queues muddying the water. You are Lincoln central and want to go to Grimsby town. You arrive 20 minutes before the train is due. You get held up in the queue as people ahead are buying complex tickets (emt closed the advanced ticket office so all tickets must be bought from the same sellers) in that situation I would expect the cheapest ticket to be sold on the train. Emt staff never never argued otherwise and the barrier staff let you through. Bad PR if you need to wait 2 hours+ because you can't buy a ticket or get charged more than you need on the train.

In those circumstances you would expect to be able to buy the cheapest ticket on the train but even though this figure of 5 minutes seems to exist is it actually enforced? And where do Penalty Fare zones come into this, I've heard the problem of queues a lot from people in SWT land and they are not so accommodating.
 

radamfi

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In those circumstances you would expect to be able to buy the cheapest ticket on the train but even though this figure of 5 minutes seems to exist is it actually enforced? And where do Penalty Fare zones come into this, I've heard the problem of queues a lot from people in SWT land and they are not so accommodating.

I think South West Trains would say that if the queue is infinitely long, you still may not board the train. Therefore, in effect, the entire service from that station is cancelled indefinitely.
 

island

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SWT is known to be quite harsh on passengers boarding without a ticket due to queues.
 

Flamingo

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Most times when the guards come through on the commuter routes I use they will be checking tickets and selling them to those who haven't got them. Sometimes, however, they come through at quite a lick just asking whether anyone 'needs' tickets. They will also often emphasise that they can sell tickets for tomorrow if it is the evening, or renew weekly tickets.

I just wondered how TOCs viewed this? They could be pleased, because the guards are helping commuters and reducing the queues at ticket offices the following morning, but I could also imagine them saying that the idea of giving the guards commission for seeling tickets was in exchange for them checking that everyone had one. The routes concerned would mostly be stations with ticket gates or manned barriers, incidentally.
If someone is stopped at a barrier, it makes it easier to prosecute if they had an opportunity to buy. Also, people will stop the guard and buy to save the hassle of queueing at the excess fares window.

I rarely do it, but on some busy trains you will not get the chance to check every ticket before the next stop. For example, the morning trains from Swansea to Cardiff this week have over 400 passengers on board leaving Bridgend, about 250-300 of them only going to Cardiff, 20 minutes away, which is barriered, so they know they won't get out without a ticket. Also, some South Wales stations will open the barriers and tell everyone in the queue to go through and buy on the train. In this scenario, walking through saying "Who needs one" is the guards only realistic option, then do a full ticket check after Cardiff when it's gone back to normal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That said, if a customer asks for it, then you have to sell it.

Though if they are attempting fare evasion by lying about their origin, then you do have the option of reporting them for prosecution instead of selling (a) ticket(s), I believe (depending on the TOC policy on that). If you are saying someone initially lies about their origin and then when sussed, admits it and asks for a split but you want to charge them for the more expensive ticket, you could in theory say "I will sell you the through ticket, with no splits, or alternatively if you do not wish to accept this, I could report you for fare evasion for lying about your origin" however I am unsure if this is good practice or whether the TOC concerned would allow this (it could be seen as blackmail?). It may be on dodgy ground, I don't know.
The only split I usually offer is if someone is going via London, and it's cheaper to split. There are some huge price discrepancies for cross-London tickets as opposed to split, (which I feel are just unfair, IMHO).

I usually don't offer the Didcot split, as it's one that is abused, to be frank (and I'm fed up being abused by people who have to pay as the train doesn't stop there!).

The chances of them being prosecuted for fare evasion in that case is about the same as being struck by lightening, but I will threaten BTP if they do fail the attitude test. Usually, it's a case of sell them the through ticket, and "advise" them that next time do it properly.
 
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Failed Unit

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SWT is known to be quite harsh on passengers boarding without a ticket due to queues.

I wonder if that is because services are more frequent than the EMT cousin? Saying that missing a train even on a high frequency service is a big deal if you have connections.
 

34D

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I usually don't offer the Didcot split, as it's one that is abused, to be frank (and I'm fed up being abused by people who have to pay as the train doesn't stop there!).

As a matter of interest, would you sell Reading-Swindon single, or sell the full Paddington-Cardiff single please?
 

yorkie

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As a matter of interest, would you sell Reading-Swindon single, or sell the full Paddington-Cardiff single please?
I don't think any trains are non-stop through Reading or Swindon these days, therefore the charge would be Reading-Swindon.

A train that calls at London, Reading, Swindon and Bristol, would be valid on a London - Didcot and Didcot - Bristol combination between London and Reading and between Swindon and Bristol, but would not be valid between Reading and Swindon.
East Coast Revenue Protection Handbook Section C said:
C7.1.5. Travel with a combination of Tickets – each valid for a partial section of the throughout journey

Train does not stop at
the station where the
customer changes from
one ticket to the other

No opportunity to buy
ticket before boarding

Charge the appropriate
Single or Return fare from
the last station where the
train called at which the
tickets were valid to travel
on the same train or if this
does not apply charge the
appropriate Single fare for
the entire journey.

Opportunity to buy ticket
before boarding

Charge the full Single or
Return fare from the last
station where the train
called at which the tickets
were valid to travel on the
same train or if this does not
apply charge the full Single
fare for the entire journey.

NOTE: You should not charge an excess fare if: -
1. The customer has a Season Ticket (not issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) in combination with a Single or Return ticket and both tickets
cover the entire journey.
2. If both tickets are zonal tickets and cover the entire journey.
 

Flamingo

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As a matter of interest, would you sell Reading-Swindon single, or sell the full Paddington-Cardiff single please?
Reading-Swindon, as it's from the last place they could have changed, to the next place they could have changed.

If I find them before we leave Reading or Swindon (depending on which direction) I will offer to excess up one ticket. If after, then I ALWAYS make announcements, so if someone is still there, it's because they are hoping I won't get to them, or they can talk their way out of it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't think any trains are non-stop through Reading or Swindon these days, therefore the charge would be Reading-Swindon.
06.00 Swansea is Swindon - Paddington non-stop (and very nice it is too, going down the middle road at Reading!)
 

Flamingo

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Only one, I'm afraid. (from South Wales, anyway, I don't know about West Country)
 

SqUaShIe P

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I always look to sell my passengers the cheapest possible tickets. At NXEA we are instructed to only sell undiscounted, anytime tickets onboard the train unless the ticket office is closed or if the queues are really big. I know some Guards will try and get as much money out of people as possible to get their commission up, but as I said, I'll always suggest a cheaper ticket when possible. I was amazed at the number of passenger that dont know about super saver tickets.
 
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